Please Help Me Spend This Money Wisely

[Dustin Keys]

I have about $200 that I can spend on tools currently – ($250 if you count a giftcard to the BORG). I’ve been slowly gathering tools over the last year or so and trying to learn to use them. Neander work is what I’m primarily interested in. I recently completed a bench build (Tom’s torsion box bench), so now I’ve got something solid to work on and want to dive into neander woodworking. I’m working through Tage Frid’s 3 books on woodworking currently (from local library). The projects I’m interested in right now are small boxes and a saw bench. I basically need to start at the bottom learning the basic joints. I’m doing this for my own enjoyment, not for commercial/professional reasons. I have absolutely nothing against building my own shop made tools where appropriate.

Generally speaking, I like to buy quality items that will last. However, one really nice saw would eat up my entire budget right now and I still wouldn’t be able to build much. While I want quality, I need to be as frugal as possible right now. We have a little one on the way, so tool money is going to be somewhere around nonexistent for some time going forward. I need to stretch this money as far as I can and try to obtain the basic tools needed to go further with my woodworking.

Here are the tools I currently have:
Wheel Marking Gauge
Bevel Gauge
Calipers
Narex Bench Chisels (1/4”, 1/2”, ¾”, 1”)
2 Wooden Mallets
Coping saw
Sears Craftsman 16” 11 ppi back saw (don’t know who manufactured it or how old it is – it isn’t new. Needs to be sharpened)
Warranted Superior 21.5” 14 ppi back saw (Needs to be cleaned up and sharpened)
Disston 26” 9 ppi saw (Needs to be cleaned up and sharpened)
Disston saw that is bent with a broken handle (could cut up the steel to make other tools out of it)
Bailey #4 plane
Stanley #5 plane
2 draw knives (one straight, one curved)
2 combo squares
Various cheap F clamps
A number of Jorgenson heavy duty F clamps in various sizes
A number of spring clamps of different sizes

Tailed tools which may be of some use as I’m acquiring hand tools:
Ryobi Circular Saw
Ryobi Jig Saw
Delta 10” band saw (given to me – needs some restoration work)
Belt Sander
Dewalt 618 router (with both standard and plunge bases)
6” Bench grinder (on loan to me)
Dremel tool (300 series)
Electric Drill

The saws, planes, and chisels are in need of sharpening. I have nothing to sharpen them with. I’m not sure if the Craftsman tenon saw can be sharpened or not as I’m unsure of it’s origin and whether or not the teeth are impact hardened or not (it can barely cut butter at the moment – virtually useless). I’ve been scouring estate sales, garage sales, flea markets, and antique stores for months to obtain a lot of the tools I currently have.

Here are the things I’m interested in purchasing, but I don’t know how to prioritize them.

Saw sharpening supplies
Sharpening supplies for chisels and planes
Jointer Plane – Found a nice one today at an antique store in great shape (hardly used that I can tell). Baldwin Tool Co is stamped into the iron which dates it to circa 1850 from what I’ve been able to find online - $45
Block Plane
Engineer’s square
Dovetail Saw
Bow/frame saw(s)

In your suggestions, it would be especially helpful if you could be very specific about the model of tool you're suggesting and where I might find it. I’m still very new to all of this.

I’ve come a long way from where I started (no tools or experience) by reading and asking questions on this board, and I appreciate any help you can give me to continue on this road.

Thanks,
D

[Jerome Hanby]

I didn't see a Shoulder Plane in the list. Darn handy for all kinds of joint tuning...

[Rick Fisher]

I would look at a good set of sharpening stones..

[Dustin Keys]

I would look at a good set of sharpening stones..

This was my original plan for the money, but the stones I wanted was going to eat up my entire budget. There are a number of other tools I still need, so I posted this thread to get some more guidance in case there was a wiser option.


I didn't see a Shoulder Plane in the list. Darn handy for all kinds of joint tuning...

I meant to add that in there along with a router plane. I'm not sure how important they are as a priority though.

D

[Mark Baldwin III]

To sharpen your saws, go to the Lie-Nielsen web site and watch the saw sharpening video. They use a shop made wooden saw vise. Your other option is to find a metal one at an antique store. Sharpening a saw is one of the skills I'm very glad I took the time to learn. While you're there, look at the selection of triangular files and order a couple of the sizes appropriate for your saws. Also, look up Steve Branam's blog (he posts here), he has a good write up for making that saw vise.
A good back saw for the money is one of the LV joinery saws. They are significantly cheaper than other back saws, but are very good. I've got all five. For starters, you might only want one.
If the wooden jointer is in good condition, get it. (though I may be partial to Baldwin stuff ;))
And I'll second what Rick said, sharpening stones! A King combination stone (1000/4000) can get you going for little money and provide a decent edge. I do alright with them. I would find a piece of float glass and sand paper, or a Norton flattening stone to keep it in true. LV sells strop leather and honing compound, which greatly improves the edge after a 4000 stone.
Disclaimer...I'm still a newbie too!

[Brian Kent]

I like Mark's recommendation.

Lee Valley Dovetail Saw
Make a saw vise
Saw file(s)
1000/4000 sharpening stone

Do you have wood?

[Mark Baldwin III]

Here's the link I referred to above: http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html
If you have a keen eye, you can find a saw sharpening vise at an antique store. I got mine for $12. That's probably twice what you'd spend on wood to make one.

[James Taglienti]

How about a mid level 12" mitersaw? or a tablesaw? Will you guys hate me for saying that? Yes hand cutting boards Is fun but...

[Randall Houghton]

Hi Dustin
Look at Lee Valley's site for Engineering squares, a good dovetail saw at a realistic price as well as saw files. If money is in short supply(always) then consider using abrasives to hone and sharpen with although you will probably need a honing guide and a flat reference surface to sharpen on. Skip the jointer for now and use the jack(#5) and a good straight edge. Make your own frame saw and buy a quality block plane because you can do many things with it. They also have free shipping until Jan.3. Find Leonard Lee's book on tool sharpening and read it and practice. Information about tools and techniques are some of the most important things to pursue when starting out. Practice all you can and then practice some more. Well to the adventure.
Regards
Randy

[Rick Fisher]

Having sharpening stones enhances a whole bunch of other tools. Your existing planes and chisels will feel like new tools when they are razor sharp.. I am learning to sharpen and far better than I was a few months ago, I learn in small break thru's .. or " aha moments " .. As my sharpening improves, many of my existing tools seem to improve automatically..

[Shawn Stennett]

I will chime in with sharpening stones as well. Yes they will/can eat up your budget but you cannot enjoy your tools you do have or going to get if they are dull. I would get at least a nice finish stone, there is a lot of people saying good things about the Sigma stones like the 6000 . I am getting into different kinds of stones, I like to use different stones for different things. You could get a granite plate, some sandpaper and a finish stones easily under the $200, which you cold pick up a few saw files.

[Jim Koepke]

My suggestion would be to make a saw vise and learn to sharpen saws. Then when the chance comes to buy a used saw vise you may know more of what to look for and not accept in a used saw vise.

That could take care of some of your saw needs for a while.

I have made a marking knife from a piece of saw blade.

You may want to use the Borg money to buy wood to build a pair of saw benches. I like 2X8 and 2X3 for mine.

There are many ways to build good saw benches. Here is what I did to build one:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777

Others have also posted their work on building saw benches. The SMC search function seems to be going through another transition, so getting good hits through searching may take a little effort.

If you can sharpen the saws you have, then you will have all the tools you need to build a pair of saw benches. If not, you could likely buy one or two of the LV saws and do the build. The practice at the joinery of building a saw bench will come in handy later.

It is good you have an electric drill. Being able to bore holes is important. You may want to keep an eye out for a good brace or two and a set of bits. I have a few that are less than good. They work, but are almost always a fight because the chuck always comes loose or they wobble. I also have some good Stanley and Millers Falls braces that get most of the use.

A simple item to make would be a small cradle for the new born. This will get you some points with the wife. You will need those points when you want to buy another tool after the child is born.

I didn't see a low angle block plane on your list. That is one of the most useful tools to have in a wood shop. Buying one of those used can be a real crap shoot. I have quite a few that all get use. The best one is the new one bought from Lie-Nielsen. Lee Valley also makes excellent new models.

A shoulder plane is a nice to have tool, but not a necessary tool. A router plane is another in that category and maybe more useful than a shoulder plane. A router plane is also something that many folks make on their own. Harry Strasil has a few different designs shown in some of his posts. Here is one of his posts:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?122794

I will add more if I find them. Okay, here is another that even has a link to another of his router threads:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?71346

If you plan to dimension your own lumber or will be using full sized stock then picking up the jointer plane may be a good idea if it is in good shape. I prefer old Stanley/Bailey planes myself, but many folks like wood bodied planes. There are advantages to both styles.

As far as stones go it depends on your own preferences. If you are familiar with oil stones or water stones then stay with what you know for now. Using abrasive paper for the scary sharp system is also a viable and inexpensive way to start. Then you could buy one fine stone, hard Arkansas or 8000 water stone, for the finish polishing and some leather and lapping compound. Other materials can be used instead of the leather.

Depending on how bad the one saw is bent, you might be able to shorten it and make it into a good saw or even a stair saw that is useful on things other than stairs.

Otherwise, it looks like you have a decent start on your tools. There is all kinds of information on the internet about saw sharpening.

Here are a couple places to start:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/hand-saw-basics

Good luck, Happy New Year and if you have more questions, they don't get answered unless you ask them.

jtk

[bob blakeborough]

Lee Valley has free shipping for another few days on orders over $40.00... You already have quite a great start in the tool department! You can do a lot with what you already have for sure.

The very best thing you could do immediately in my humble opinion is to get a sharpening system. I know LV has what they call a Cabinet Makers basic set which comes with a King 1000/4000 waterstone and either an MKI or MKII honing guide for $79.50 or $92.50 respectively. Many prefer to hand sharpen but I really love using the guide. Especially when starting it gives you a repeatable edge over and over. That is more than enough to give you a good workable edge, but from there they also have a leather strop and green compound kit for $37.00 that will take the edge to even a higher degree of sharp.

After that, you can't go wrong with a Veritas Dovetail saw for $65.00, or a pair of saws (crosscut and dovetail) for $109.00. If you bought the sharpening kit described above and the lone dovetail saw, or make do without the strop and buy the pair of saws, you can come in under $200.00 or just slightly above depending which honing guide you went with.

From there you can add a tool here or there as you go, but you will have pretty much everything you need to make the blade tools you already have nice and sharp. Your tools can be the best there is, but if they are dull they won't work well for you whatsoever...

[Joe A Faulkner]

For sharpening stones, you can get a 220/1000, 4000/8000 combination set of norton stones that are wide enough to sharpen plane irons as well as chisels. It will set you back $140 or so with shipping costs.
The 220 grit is useful for flattening the back of irons and chisels : http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Waterstone-Woodworker-Package/dp/B000H6HIN4/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&m=A2NWLOWWF5G7JX&s=generic&qid=1325384529&sr=1-9.


You could initially go with a low-end honing guide like:
http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Larson-800-1800-Honing-Guide/dp/B000CFNCKS/ref=pd_cp_hi_4

which will give you better, more predictable, repeatable results out of the gate than trying to freehand. Of course there are other more expensive honing guides, but for $10 or so, you can get started with an old standard.

The initial investment in waterstones hurts a bit, but once you get your chisels and plane irons sharp, you will be glad that you made the investment in the sharpening equipment, and you will use the stones frequently to keep your tools sharp.

[Mark Dorman]

I agree with the need to be able to sharpen all your tools. I'm doing the sandpaper route and have a few used stones for marking knives. What I did to start out is pick a project and see if I had the tools to finish it or make the ones I have work.
Then I had a better idea of what was really needed by the time I got done. Now I pick projects that need the tools I want to buy. :)

Mark

[Dustin Keys]

Wow! Thank you all so much!

There is a lot for me to look over here and think about. I've read through it all a few times now, but I need to chew on it a little more as there's a lot of good advice here and quite a few things I haven't thought of on my own. Jim, your very thorough post is especially helpful. I'm sure I'll follow up with a round of questions, but I need to sleep on it first.

A very generous Creeker has offered to help me out with some sharpening stones, so that will make a huge impact on what I'm able to accomplish at this point. I'm astonished at how helpful this community is and I look forward to continuing to participate.

D

[Dustin Keys]

OK, now I have some questions...

Since I'm trying to stretch my dollars, I have to ask. Is the LN low angle block plane really worth 3X as much as the modern Stanley low angle block plane? Aesthetics aside, does it function that much better? I'm just trying to make sure it's necessary to spend the extra money in this case. If it is, then I'll do it.

Same thing for the dovetail saws. Is the Veritas really worth twice as much as the Classic Gent's Saw that LV sells or one of the Zona saws (which are even less expensive)?

On the low angle block planes, I'm not familiar with them. Are they a high enough priority that I should do without other things to get one soon?

I do have some wood around that I can use for shop stuff (SYP, white pine, a little plywood, and DF). I think I have enough to build both the saw benches, the saw vise, and a moxxon vise (have some threaded rod laying around that needs to be used). I need to get some hardwood lumber though as I need it to start acclimating to my shop so that once my shop projects are finished I can begin working with small boxes and such.

D

[bob blakeborough]

OK, now I have some questions...

Since I'm trying to stretch my dollars, I have to ask. Is the LN low angle block plane really worth 3X as much as the modern Stanley low angle block plane? Aesthetics aside, does it function that much better? I'm just trying to make sure it's necessary to spend the extra money in this case. If it is, then I'll do it.

Same thing for the dovetail saws. Is the Veritas really worth twice as much as the Classic Gent's Saw that LV sells or one of the Zona saws (which are even less expensive)?

On the low angle block planes, I'm not familiar with them. Are they a high enough priority that I should do without other things to get one soon?

I do have some wood around that I can use for shop stuff (SYP, white pine, a little plywood, and DF). I think I have enough to build both the saw benches, the saw vise, and a moxxon vise (have some threaded rod laying around that needs to be used). I need to get some hardwood lumber though as I need it to start acclimating to my shop so that once my shop projects are finished I can begin working with small boxes and such.

D

Yes there are definitely differences in the quality, especially right out of the box. If you are willing to fettle the tar out of a new plane purchase which you would probably have to do with the newer Stanley's, you will be further ahead buying a vintage one which will be better quality than the new one and probably not be any more work, and also cheaper. The LN or LV blocks will be extremely good right out of the box...

As for the saws, I prefer the western style handles over the style on gent saws. IMO it is easier to saw a straight line as you can reference your grip better. Of course some will prefer the gent saw style grip, but that is up to you. The LV saws are absolutely going to be some of the best quality you can get for that dollar level, but yes, any saw will cut. Ask yourself if you want to buy cheap now and spend more later to upgrade, or spend more now and not need to upgrade later...

As for using a block plane, for many it is used all the time. Myself, I find I use it less and less, but that is more just because I find my hand cramps up more using them, so I find ways to secure the pieces and use a smaller bench plane. Look maybe at the smaller apron plane styles if you want to save a few bucks...

There are a lot of personal preferences that come into play with the varieties of tools for sure, but I think most here would agree they would rather have a few good tools rather than a bunch of cruddy ones...

[David Keller NC]

Dustin - Do not purchase a block plane or a shoulder plane. While they are very useful, you have much bigger priorities. Specifically, you can't work without sharp tools, so this should be #1 on your shopping list. You will need a proper dovetail saw at some point, but you can get away with the 14" backsaw for the time being, so long as it is sharp.


The next item on your priority list is a way to rip boards to width, and to dress the edges. If you want to go neander, you can get a dedicated rip panel saw or file one of your existing saws to a rip-tooth profile. But be aware that ripping boards to width is really hard work. It's not all that big of a deal if it's 1" thick eastern white pine, but it's going to be a numbing affair if it's 2" thick maple.

So - there's another solution. You can buy an aluminum edge guide for about $40 - that will allow you to use your Ryobi circular saw to rip boards to width without killing yourself. If the boards are too short, then you can simply rip these with your panel saw.

And - you absolutely must have a plane longer than a Stanely/Bailey #5 unless you only want to make small boxes. Anything furniture-sized requires at least an 18" long plane. That would be a #6 in Stanley terms, though most of us use #7s or #8s for a jointer. Wooden jointers are fantastic to use, but be aware that if an antique jointer is little-used, there's usually a reason. Typically, the wooden stock is warped or twisted, and the grain in the plane is such that the craftsman in the 19th century couldn't keep it straight and flat through humidity changes. So look carefully before you buy a woodie jointer plane - this is the principal reason NOT to buy wooded planes from e-bay - the seller rarely knows the difference between "usable", "fixable to be used", and "useless - makes a nice shelf ornament".

[James Owen]

Some thoughts for your tool purchases:

Buy the best quality you can afford. Yes, you will end up with fewer tools in the short run, but you will have better tools that will work as they are supposed to, and that don't have to be replaced in a year or two.....

Make your own bow saw: you can buy some of the parts from TFWW, or you can go to the Borg, buy brass rod (use your Dremel to cut the slots, etc.), and buy a good blade from TFWW or elsewhere. There are several places on the web that show you the process of making your own. Having access to a lathe to turn your own handles is nice, but not absolutely necessary; it's relatively easy to make your own handles using just hand tools or the power tools you already have.

Engineer's square: buy a Groz engineer's square for a couple of bucks at Woodcraft; some of the tools that Groz makes are, IMO, not worth buying -- particularly their hand planes. However, some of their marking and measuring tools are generally more than adequate for woodworking, and are reasonably priced. If you're not doing high-precision metal work, there's no need to spend big, big $$ on a Starrett or a Brown & Sharpe engineer's square.

Block plane: when it comes time to buy one, yes, the LN is absolutely worth 3X the $$ of the Stanley. Once upon a time, I was extremely dubious of the prices LN wanted, had heard that they were "good" tools, and after agonizing back and forth for several months, finally decided to spring for the $90 (at that time) for a #102. Let's just say that buying that tool was a HUMONGOUS mistake, that I have now spent more money at LN than I would ever want to admit.....and have had an ear-to-ear grin on my face ever since.....

Saws: buy Harold "Dynamite" Payson's book Keeping the Cutting Edge and Tom Law's video Hand Saw Sharpening. Both are available at Lie-Nielsen. They will tell you everything you need to know about sharpening hand saws. You can make your own saw vice for a couple of dollars, as other have already mentioned. LN also sells triangular saw sharpening files, and TFWW sells a couple of nice saw sets for about $35 for the pair (for coarse and fine teeth). Your bent Disston saw may be able to be straightened, or, if the bend is toward the toe, you could cut it off behind the bend and have a nice panel saw. The off-cut will make some nice scrapers.

Jointer plane: for vintage, look at a Stanley or Bedrock #7 or #8, or the Sargent, or Union, or Millers Falls equivalents. If the plane is in good shape, tuning it will be a quick and easy process. If it's not in good shape, don't buy it in the first place...it's more trouble than it's worth.... If you want new, then take a close look at the LN #7 or #8. Some -- like me -- prefer the weight, width, and length of the #8; others prefer a bit lighter, narrower, and shorter, and go with a #7. If you decide on a LN #7, it does have the advantage of taking the 50˚ and 55˚ high angle frogs that will also fit the #6, #5-1/2, and #4-1/2.

Dovetail saws: your 16" backsaw, after sharpening, will make a perfectly serviceable dovetail saw, although it is a bit coarser than is typical for a dovetail saw. Down the road, you could take a look at the LV or the LN dovetails saws. Several other smaller saw makers, including Bad Axe, Wenzloff & Sons, etc., also make beautiful dovetail saws that may interest you. Expect to pay $150 +/- for a new, high-quality dovetail saw.

Sharpening: this is an area that is open to endless debate. If you are interested in decent quality water stones, and don't want to spend a small fortune, take a look at the King brand. You can get an 800/4000 grit and a 1200/8000 grit set of combination stones for about $100 (from Woodcraft), that will take care of almost all of your edged tool sharpening needs. They are not top end stones by any means, but neither are they bottom end junk. They are quite adequate for nearly any use, and will put a very sharp edge and a nice polish on your tools, if you do your part.

Combo squares: unless you have a Starrett in nice shape, your combo squares are potentially a source of great frustration. If you need a combo square and your current ones are not square and parallel, consider very seriously getting a Starrett; they are worth every penny.

You may also find some hand screws, in various sizes, to be quite useful.

A nice mortise chisel or two, if you'll be making M&T joints, will be useful. Take a look at the Ray Iles mortise chisels at TFWW. They are first class, and hold an edge forever.....

For other tools, as others have suggested, the guidelines offered in The Anarchist's Tool Chest are pretty much dead-on.....

All suggestions made above are based on my experiences and preferences. Others will have other recommendations, based on their experiences and preferences. Take them all into account and follow those that seem best for your budget, methods of work, and preferences. YMMV.

Good luck in your tool hunt and furniture building! The learning curve sometimes seems steep, but it's a lot of fun climbing it and then sliding back down the slippery slope.......

[Michael Ray Smith]

My 2 cents worth (every now and then I really miss that cent sign from the old typewriters): For the first sharpening system, get a granite plate, sandpaper, and at least one jig-- a cheapo Eclipse style will do a lot for you, but you'll eventually want some others. Then the best miter box you can find and afford. Then the Veritas low-angle block plane -- I started out with that as my only plane, and it's amazing how useful it can be.

All these have already been mentioned. It's just my opinion on prioritizing. Unfortunately, unless you find some really, really good deals, those three things will set you back more than the $200 you have to spend. You might be able to get the sharpening system and one of the other two.

Mike

[Michael Ray Smith]

Jim,

Thanks for the link to the saw bench project. I wasn't a member when that was originally posted. As the last post noted, it's sort of tough to see the final product in that last picture. Do you have one that shows it off more clearly?

Mike

[Sean Richards]

Hi Dustin,

A quick note on block planes - I have a LN 60 1/2 and a very unfashionable English manufactured Stanley 9 1/2. Apart from the obvious difference in bedding angle I don't really think there is much functional difference.

Books have been mentioned - good choice on the Tage Frid books. Different style but still good are Charles Hayward's books, the Essential Woodworker by Robert Wearing is also good.

[Jim Koepke]

My 2 cents worth (every now and then I really miss that cent sign from the old typewriters):

On a Mac, Option-4 produces ¢.

There is likely a key sequence for this on Windows or other OSes.

Then there is my other way to get my 218150 in.

jtk

[Jerome Hanby]

On my Windows workstation (and Firefox browser), i can turn on num lock, hold down the alt key and type 0162 on the numeric keypad and get a ¢




On a Mac, Option-4 produces ¢.

There is likely a key sequence for this on Windows or other OSes.

Then there is my other way to get my 218150 in.

jtk

[Dustin Keys]

On my Windows workstation (and Firefox browser), i can turn on num lock, hold down the alt key and type 0162 on the numeric keypad and get a ¢

Well what do you know about that, learn something new everyday... Really thought you were messing with us until I tried it...


Hi Dustin,

A quick note on block planes - I have a LN 60 1/2 and a very unfashionable English manufactured Stanley 9 1/2. Apart from the obvious difference in bedding angle I don't really think there is much functional difference.

This is something I've found in a lot of reading recently. It seems that many people are able to get the older Stanley's to work quite well. Bob Smalser has an FAQ article here that demonstrates this very well. I am considering continuing to search for an older block plane in need of some attention to save some money as they appear to operate quite well when set up properly. I'm also entertaining the idea of ordering the LN so I know how a really nice plane should operate. Still deliberating on the wisdom of that though...




Make your own bow saw:

I've decided to do this. Aside from filling in some missing links in my saw setup, I just want to do it. Once I've been bitten with the desire to build something like that, I need to just do it or it will eat at me until I finally do.




Engineer's square: buy a Groz engineer's square for a couple of bucks at Woodcraft;

Thanks! This is good to know as it will save me a chunk of money over the higher end ones. I just really want one thing in my shop that I know is actually square to an acceptable tolerance to check other tools against.




Dovetail saws: your 16" backsaw, after sharpening, will make a perfectly serviceable dovetail saw, although it is a bit coarser than is typical for a dovetail saw. Down the road, you could take a look at the LV or the LN dovetails saws.


Good to know. If I can't afford the dovetail saw along with the other things I need, I'll use what I have until I can. I didn't think it would work considering the plate is pretty thick and it's large compared to the saws I typically see people cut dovetails with, but I will try to make it work if I need to.




A nice mortise chisel or two, if you'll be making M&T joints, will be useful. Take a look at the Ray Iles mortise chisels at TFWW. They are first class, and hold an edge forever.....

I was thinking about just using a drill and forstner bits to remove waste and paring to the line with a chisel, but I really would like to have a mortise chisel or two to try it the traditional way as well.



So - there's another solution. You can buy an aluminum edge guide for about $40 - that will allow you to use your Ryobi circular saw to rip boards to width without killing yourself. If the boards are too short, then you can simply rip these with your panel saw.


This is basically what I did to get through my bench build (but I used a straight 1x6 instead of the aluminum fence). I will pick up an aluminum fence eventually though as the 1x6 is a little difficult to work with for some things. I do need to get a rip panel saw though at some point. I have my eye on one at the moment that is <$10, so I will probably pick it up as it's bound to prove useful for that price.





And - you absolutely must have a plane longer than a Stanely/Bailey #5 unless you only want to make small boxes. Anything furniture-sized requires at least an 18" long plane. That would be a #6 in Stanley terms, though most of us use #7s or #8s for a jointer. Wooden jointers are fantastic to use, but be aware that if an antique jointer is little-used, there's usually a reason. Typically, the wooden stock is warped or twisted, and the grain in the plane is such that the craftsman in the 19th century couldn't keep it straight and flat through humidity changes. So look carefully before you buy a woodie jointer plane - this is the principal reason NOT to buy wooded planes from e-bay - the seller rarely knows the difference between "usable", "fixable to be used", and "useless - makes a nice shelf ornament".

So you don't think using a straightedge and my #5 is a good working solution for the time being? Those are some interesting things I hadn't thought about with the wooden jointer. I know you probably couldn't tell me if it's straight and flat effectively from a picture, but could you tell me if the grain is problematic if I post a picture? I'm also concerned that $45 + tax is a little high for it. I could be wrong, but something in me thinks that I could find an old metal Bailey for less if I keep looking (although I've been looking for several months with no luck).




As for the saws, I prefer the western style handles over the style on gent saws. IMO it is easier to saw a straight line as you can reference your grip better.

I hadn't thought about that. It makes a lot of sense though. I should probably stick with the western style handle.

This thread has been very helpful to me. I spent much of the long weekend cleaning up my old tool finds and the bandsaw that was given to me. There was a lot of rust to get rid of, but most of it cleaned up very well and I'm confident they'll all tune up to do fine work. I didn't have time to clean up the saw plates so that is still ahead of me.

So here is what I'm currently thinking on the priority list. This is in no way a final decision, I'm just throwing it out there for your comments before I make a purchase.

1. Sharpening Supplies - Already taken care of by a fellow Creeker
2. Saw files and sets - roughly $55 at this point for the sets and files I currently need
3. Block Plane (could go inexpensive with a vintage Bailey or with the LN) - 20ish to 110
4. Jointer Plane - $30-50 - just a guess on an old woodie or Bailey
5. Inexpensive engineer's square - $15
6. Bow frame building supplies - $? - This needs it's own thread
7. Dovetail Saw - $65

A few other items I may need (possibly more than something already on my list):
1. Moisture meter - Don't have one now and ran into some problems with my bench build due to wood that was wetter than I thought.
2. Scrub Plane - not sure how useful these are or if I really need one, but I don't have an electric thickness planer at this point. I am thinking that I can make the #5 do these tasks for now, but thought it was worth asking.

Thanks again for all the help!
D

[Chris Griggs]

Scrub Plane - not sure how useful these are or if I really need one, but I don't have an electric thickness planer at this point. I am thinking that I can make the #5 do these tasks for now, but thought it was worth asking.



Use a no. 5 or no. 6 with a heavily cambered blade. For basic flattening/thicknessing I find these preferable. A scrub is great for when you REALLY need to hog off material, but I think it is overkill most of the time. Also, the extra length of a 5 or 6 over a scrub is beneficial in getting/keeping things flat. Not everyone agrees with what I just said. Plenty of folks love using scrubs as their "foreplane", but just starting out I don't see any reason to get one when 5s and 6s are so plentiful, less expensive, and in my opinion (again, some disagree)better suited for flattening/thicknessing

[Bruce Haugen]

My 2 cents worth (every now and then I really miss that cent sign from the old typewriters)

On PCs, Shift-RightAlt-C, but what do I know, I'm a Mac user.

[Mark Baldwin III]

W
2. Scrub Plane - not sure how useful these are or if I really need one, but I don't have an electric thickness planer at this point. I am thinking that I can make the #5 do these tasks for now, but thought it was worth asking.

Thanks again for all the help!
D
A dedicated scrub, IMO, is a nice tool to have. You can get a scrub iron from LV ($23) or from St. James Bay ($18) and build a Krenov style plane around it. If you're already ordering tools from LV, then the extra $5 is probably worth it, since you won't pay additional shipping to get one from another vendor. Building your own plane is a nice learning experience. Building a scrub is nice because you get to build something with a gaping mouth and you won't have to obsess over the accuracy of the final product.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You mention a saw set in your list of items - I wouldn't worry about that right now - I have yet to find a saw in the wild that doesn't have enough set - usually the problem is the other way around. I don't think I've needed a saw set yet. Try getting things sharp and seeing how they cut before you even worry about investing in one.

A block plane is a great tool to have, but if you have decent work holding, you can make a small smoother work for many of the jobs you'd use one for. While a block plane is nice to have for small things, the place where it really shines for me is when the job is too quick or small or I'm too lazy or I'm working out of the shop, and I want to secure the work with one hand and plane with the other, instead of securing the work and using both hands on the tool. I used to use my low-angle block for lots of end grain work, but having a low angle jack plane, I now use that for more of those jobs, just because the extra mass is nice for tougher end grain work. Things that are too small for that jack plane to be the best tool I usually end up doing with chisels.

I certainly think a block plane is a great tool to have, and I'm not saying you shouldn't get one, but if I was in your position (and I kind of am right now, except I have more tools - but it always seems like there's at least two more things I need than I have money for . . . ) I would pass on the block plane and focus more on the core tools. I know some people wouldn't give theirs up for the life of them, but I find nine times out of ten, the block plane is more the convenient tool than the perfect tool, and the few times it's the perfect tool, a chisel is still a good enough tool. I mean, the block plane as we think of it didn't show up until the 1870s or something, right? I mean, folks made plenty of great work and dealt without having a low angle block.

The turning saw is another one I question - I don't have one, and there are plenty of times I'm struggling with my coping saw kicking myself for not having filled that hole yet, but unless you're making a whole lot of work where you need it, you can probably live without one for a while. You mention having a bandsaw - that could certainly fill that hole for a while.

I'd be tempted to lump the dovetail saw in that category as well, depending on your experience level. Before you even bother to worry about making perfect dovetails, you should know how to make perfect sawcuts. You don't need to practice dovetails to learn that skill. If you can only afford one or two saws, and wanted a new one, I'd be tempted to get a rip carcase saw - a little coarse for dovetails, but it can work well (I like using one for dovetailing 3/4" stock) and it can work for small tenons and such, and if you knife your lines all the way around, you can make fairly clean crosscuts with it. If you decide eventually you don't need a rip saw in that size, (like perhaps you end up with a DT saw and something a little larger for tenon work) you could always file it crosscut for a little cleaner work that way.

I've had some of my most fun (and productive) building with a jack plane, a smoother, two chisels and a backsaw. Learning to surface lumber, make accurate adjustments to joints with a chisel, (I still don't have a rabbet plane, I still want one, but knowing I can get the job done with a chisel is empowering - more empowering is when I get things right with just the saw) and saw accurately have been more important in my ability to build things than having a cabinet full of tools.

For the circular saw - the guide I've always like (although I haven't been able to try one of those fancy aluminum tracks) is the type made out of two pieces of sheet goods - rip a couple of strips out of some ply or MDF or something. Make sure one of them has a factory edge on it, and that that edge is pretty straight. That will be your top piece, and should be a bit narrower than the first piece - glue that piece one top, it'll be your "fence". After the glue is dry, you use that first piece as a fence, ride the circular saw against it, and cut through the bottom piece. If you've made the whole jig wide enough, it's easy to clamp in place, and having used the saw to make the jig, you no longer need to figure out the offset, the left edge of the jig just goes where you want the inside of the cut to be.

Also - you mentioned a Zona saw at one point - they're handy when you need them, but don't try and cut dovetails in anything bit with them. At the 24 or so TPI they are, it takes a loooong time.

I don't know, I'm probably not adding anything to conversation, but just throwing out my opinion. A lot of the guys who've commented here have a lot more experience than I, and are probably better to listen to.

[Jeff Zens]

I'll agree with the posts that urge you to spend the cash on water stones. You can get set up with three (almost four) King stones within your budget. If you're buying three, I would choose 800, 1200 and 4000 grit. If you can add one more, select an 8000 grit polishing stones. King brand are not by any means the most expensive, but they will do a perfectly good job sharpening your edge tools, and will last a long long time. You simply cannot do good work with dull tools, and you're more likely to injure yourself along the way. Dull tools take more work, and they aren't fun to use.

While you'll get a lot of different recommendations about what brand to buy, you won't be disappointed starting out with the set described above. The drawback to dual grit stones is the contamination factor. Unless you are religious about cleaning the stones and the water pond before each use, it is likely that coarser grit abrasive particles will find their way onto the finer grit surface. So when you're trying to polish out the scratches left by the coarse side, these errant particles interfere and continue to leave scratches in your steel. That's why a lot of people use single grit stones and keep each of them in their own water pond.

If you learn to sharpen free-hand (it isn't hard, it just takes a little practice) you will save the money otherwise spent on a honing guide, and your tools will be every bit as sharp. Free-hand honing is a lot easier if you hollow-grind your bevels, but that's another purchase....

Good luck and happy shopping!!!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

When I got sick of tossing money at sandpaper, I bought the Superstone (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SSWAT.XX&Category_Code=THW) set @ TFWW. For the price, it's quite nice. I think I'd like to replace the 8000 grit stone someday, but it gets the job done, and it's probably payed for itself over sandpaper at this point.

[Dustin Keys]

Thanks again for all the help in this thread. As a small update, I found an old Stanley 9 1/2 this morning at a barn sale for $10. It's in pretty good shape with all the parts still present and working properly. Although it isn't an LN, for $10 I didn't see how I could pass it up. I may still get the LN at some point, but I'm sure there's room in the shop for 2 block planes if I do. I also got an old Stanley brace in great shape for $5 and a set of auger bits still in their pouch for $10 (made in the US and hardly used).

D

[Harry Goodwin]

I agree that working without a table saw would slow your work to a snails pace. Remember in the midst of great fantastic tools that are available at realistic cost most of the great work from other times were created without any of these new sophiticated things I now own. A router plane, an old stanley doweling jig would turn lots of things into quality. The shoulder plane would help a lot. Every Christmas, birthday special blessing can produce great tools gradually. Harry

[David Keller NC]

Dustin - One thing to consider regarding the table saw, guide track for a circular saw, or 26" long food-powered panel saw choice is the direction that table saws are going in. There are current rule-making processes going on at the federal level that -might- result in all new table saws having to have flesh-sensing technology and blade brakes.

That will make free-standing cabinet saws cost about what a SawStop does in its various editions, and will probably eliminate the smaller, lighter, and much cheaper contractor saws from brands like Ryobi and Rigid at the BORGs. There will always be saws on the used market that don't have this feature, of course, but you can bet that if the revised rules do require provision of finger detection/blade brakes on new saws, then quality used cabinet saws like older Delta UniSaws and Powermatics will go up substantially in price.

What I might therefore suggest is that you sharpen up your 26" panel saw (or have an experienced person sharpen it - that will give you and excellent idea about how a sharp panel saw should behave) and give it a go building one of the Schwarz's sawbenches as a first project. That will not only give you a highly useful, very stable worksurface for next to nothing in lumber costs, it will give you a good idea of whether you'll tolerate making long rips by hand. I might also suggest you build the sawbench out of some inexpensive hardwood. While Chris advises southern yellow pine (or its western equivalent, Doug Fir), making your sawbench out of some scrap red/white oak, maple, ash, beech (wooden pallets are often Beech, btw) or other mid-hard domestic hardwood will go a long way to help you in making the "only by hand/hybrid power tool, hand tool/ only power tool" assessment.

[Dustin Keys]

I certainly understand the suggestions to add a table saw, and I don't disagree that it would greatly speed up the grunt work of rough dimensioning stock along with other tasks. Aside from the issue of finding a saw that I can afford (I've been watching the local CL and hitting estate sales for over a year now without any luck), there is the problem of where to put it. I really don't have adequate space in my garage for a table saw. I share the garage with my wife's car, and there just isn't room for a table saw. I could squeeze it in there, but there wouldn't be room to work with it. I would have to move the car out and reposition the table saw to work with large stock. I've also been watching the legislative issues. I've seen people throw away a lot of money because of legislation that they thought might happen just to find that it never did. I won't be buying a table saw for that reason.

At present, I really think that I can accomplish the tasks I would use a table saw for with my guided circ saw and router. During the bench build, I had to make 8' rip cuts through 2x6s. While it was a little tricky to figure out how to set that up safely, I did figure it out and was able to do it successfully. At some point in my evolution as a woodworker, I'm certain I'll have a quality table saw. For now, I think I'll be okay without one.

My emphasis on hand tools isn't because I'm some sort of purist. I just enjoy working with them more than power tools, and I've found that it takes more time to set up the power tools than it does to complete the same task by hand in a lot of cases. Where appropriate, you won't find me reaching for a hand tool when a power tool I have makes more sense. I will probably do some things by hand that aren't very efficient just for the experience of it, but I'm not one to feel like I've suffered a personal defeat if I need to grab an electric drill, circular saw, or powered router.

David, I didn't know that pallets were often beech. Beech is something I read about all the time here, but I never see it locally. I may start looking over pallets to see what I can find. I've wanted to work with beech some just to see what it's like since I read so much about it.

D