Chisels I can go ahead and whack!

[Mike Holbrook]

I can't believe I am making yet another post on chisels but here I am. I have a set of Ashley Iles MK2's, well not exactly a set; I got the ones I thought I would use, not quite a set. I also have a Ray Iles 1/4 mortise chisel. I know the RI chisel is built to be beat on, but I would like a few chisels for cleaning mortises, tenons etc. that are designed to be hit with a mallet. I realize the AI's can take some light hammering but I am having a hard time bringing myself to go ahead and rap on them. I would like to keep the AI's very sharp & reserve them more for paring functions.

I am about to build a large bench with heavy base using mortise and tenons as the main joints and I would like to have at least a few heavier duty firmer or framing type chisels to work the larger mortises and tenons the bench will need. I am having a little trouble figuring out which chisels are designed more as former or firmer chisels than paring chisels.

In my copy of Hand Tool Essentials Chris suggests a full set of "firmer" chisels. I think, however, that Chris uses a bunch of Lie-Nielsen tools including their bench chisels, which although they may be designed more for striking than the AI's, still do not seem like firmers to me. LN makes mortise chisels which may come in handy but it seems to me they sort of duplicate the RI ultimate mortise chisels. I find Henry Taylor Firming Chisels and Timber Framers Chisels at The Best Things which sound good but they do look a little like the LN socket chisels with a top designed more for striking. Hirsch makes a chisel I would call more of a firmer, obviously designed to be struck. Chris mentions his Hirsch chisels. Pfeil makes chisels that certainly appear to be designed to be struck and I expect the Sweedish tool steel I understand they are made of is tough stuff...

The Henry Taylor Firming Chisels are 13" with 8.25 sockets, maybe a little extra blade length will come in handy on heavy bench legs? Chris mentions having one large 1 1/4 - 2" Framing Chisel. Henry Taylor offers both a 1 1/2 - 2" Framing chisel 15 1/2" long with a 10 1/2" socket. Maybe a larger RI would come in handy too" How would a Henry Taylor firmer or two, a Henry Taylor 1 1/2" framing chisel and maybe a larger maybe 3/8" RI, "strike" you guys?

[Jim Koepke]

Are you firmly set on purchasing new?

A few of mine were acquired at a pretty low price just because people don't collect P.S.&W. or White, Douglas or even a few other brands that are good quality chisels from a century or more ago.

I'll try to remember to take some pictures later today.

jtk

[Jonathan McCullough]

You can use the AIs to pare the sides of tenons. I'd just be careful to use the mortise chisel to then pry the splinters out; you don't want to do that with paring chisel tips. (I've tried!).

[Joe Fabbri]

Mike,

Hartville tool sells MHG firmer carpenter's chisels. They look pretty heavy duty, and I've heard some decent reviews of MHG.

Joe

[Randall Houghton]

Hi Mike
I went through the same thing and ended up experimenting with a variety of chisels and found that the less expensive Japanese chisels from Woodcraft were great for general chopping. The steel is tough enough to hold a good edge and take a lot of abuse that occurs when chopping hardwoods. They are easy to sharpen and can be struck with a steel hammer with out damage to the handle. Just something else to think about.
Regards
Randy

[Stuart Tierney]

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/060811_1621_Whatswrongw1.jpg

This is a chisel you can hit because...


http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/060911_1604_Whatsrightw2.jpg

Well, I think it's obvious. :D

Just in case ya'll were wondering what a chisel made to be hit with a sledgehammer looks like.

Stu.

[Bill Haumann]

Barr Quarton chisels.

[Dale Cruea]

I don't have handle problems with the chisels I hit I have problems with the edge.
To try to solve the problem I sharpen one set to 35 degrees to whack and one set to 25 - 30 degrees for paring.
I have yet to fine a chisel I can hit with my mallet that will hold it's edge after a half dozen good hits.
I have both Pfiel and LN bench chisels.
I have one old Stanley 750 that can take the hitting very well.

This may be sharpening or user error since I just started using hand tools.

[steven c newman]

Stanley Fat-Max. English steel, no less. Decent end cap(metal). Bang away, I do. I usually use my 32oz (little boy) ball pean hammer to drive them around. I have been using a 1/4" one as my mortise chisel. 217773It is sitting there in the front of the "Rogue's Gallery". The other chisel was made by Fuller @ 1-1/4" wide. Just some old "junk" I use. The FatMax is the newest of the gang.

[Jim Koepke]

I am about to build a large bench with heavy base using mortise and tenons as the main joints and I would like to have at least a few heavier duty firmer or framing type chisels to work the larger mortises and tenons the bench will need. I am having a little trouble figuring out which chisels are designed more as former or firmer chisels than paring chisels.



For tenon work a pairing chisel is fine. The two on the right below are used when needed on large tenons and dovetails.

Here are my chisels for hard whacking…

217784

As it comes time to put new handles on these they are getting a handle designed to have room for my full hand holding it and still have some room at the top to avoid any of my skin getting pinched when the mallet lands.

You can see the paring chisels have different style handles. The small handle allows a good grip allowing my hand to push against the bead at the base when paring. This is pretty much the design used on my chisels for paring unless they are Buck Brothers chisels. Lately I have tried to make those handles more in the Buck style.

There is a Stanley Everlasting chisel in the mix. Those have steel through the handle to be hit with a hammer.

Harder to come across is the Crescent brand chisel that was made for plumbers, electricians and other trade workers who would likely hit their chisels with a hammer instead of a mallet.

The 3/8" Swan has a piece from an old chair leg being used as a handle. This is from before I bought a lathe.

And a side view…

217783

Here are some chisels that are even heavier than the others…

217782

And a side view…

217781

They have been mistreated by former owners and are in need of a lot of rehabilitation.

One of these days.

Here is a copy of text from an old Crescent catalog on their chisels…

217780

Mine came to me through the estate of a dear friend as did almost all of the chisels waiting for rehab.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

I am not set on anything other than having some larger chisels I feel comfortable whacking to make the bench with. I tried searching auctions for chisels even bought a couple smaller ones just to see what I got. I have done fairly well buying some older tools at auctions but the chisels just seem to have more variables to consider on more items...

I think I am back to the size issue that plagued me when I first started into chisels. My solution is to buy chisels for specific work. The current projects are a sawbench and Split Top Roubo bench. I'm afraid to even get started on Japanese chisels, that looks like a whole new slope. Anyone use the LV Japanese, plastic (almost indestructible) handled chisels?

[James Owen]

The Henry Taylor heavy duty socket firmer chisels are great chisels. You can get them in 5 widths from 1/2' to 2". While I use the smaller ones mostly for paring, because I like the long square blade, you can whale away on them and they just keep going.....

Along with The Best Things, Traditional Woodworker also sells the HT chisels. One advantage of the Henry Taylor over the Hirsch is that the HTs are true Imperial sizes, the Hirsch metric equivalents, so if tool slaving is important, the HTs might be a better choice.....

As far as the Ray Iles mortise chisels go, all I can suggest is that you get the one(s) that you need for your projects. For building a bench, the 3/8" or maybe even the 1/2" seem like they could be very useful -- all depends on how big you plan to make your mortises.....

As others have mentioned, the Pfeil and the WC Japanese chisels will withstand chopping pretty decently, and the Pfeil also make pretty decent paring chisels; the WC Japanese, not quite so much for me, mostly because of handle length and shape.

FWIW, the handles on the Ashley Iles chisels are bubinga, so they will withstand some fairly heavy pounding, if you need to give them a whack or two..... They will certainly work fine for light, controlled tapping, such as for cleaning mortise walls or for dovetailing.

If you decide to go with vintage chisels, and don't want to fool with the infamous auction site, try Jon Zimmers Antique Tools (put that all together as one word and add ".com" to the end, and you're there....); he usually has a very nice inventory of chisels for reasonable prices (not as good as auction prices, but normally less than from many of the other antique dealers). No connection, other than a very satisfied repeat customer.

[Ron Kellison]

You can certainly whack these! http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=66067&cat=1,41504

Regards,

Ron

[James Taglienti]

I know Chris Schwarz is a great woodworker but there are a lot of good chisls out there besides what he specifically mentions, and surely more than one way to build a workbench. Chisels that are meant to be struck i have always referred to as "beaters" and mine are just that. I like the stanley everlasting chisels wood handle, plastic, whatever, any chisel that i can pound with a steel hammer and not cry my eyes out when the edge fails. I dont dote over these chisels like i do my paring chisels and cranknecks. The lee valley plastic handle ones look pretty smashable and they are cheap. The cheaper the chisel the more likely i am to give it a full wallop. If i bought some 75 or 80 dollar firmer chisel id still be afraid to hit it!

[Mike Henderson]

If you want chisels that you can really wack on, get some pigsticker style mortise chisels.

Mike

[Mike Holbrook]

My reason for bringing Chris up was I found it interesting that he suggested a full set of 1/8" increment firmer chisels and just a few paring chisels . Obviously Chris has a business relationship with Lee-Nielsen so he gets seen with their socket chisels a good deal. I'm not sure how close those L-N socket chisels come to the firmer chisels category? The L-Ns seem to me to be similar to the Ashley Isles I have so I have not been considering them. The Hirsch (firmer), Ray Iles (pigsticker) and Henry Taylor (firmer & timber framing) chisels seem to me to be built to withstand more rough use, particularly mallet use.

I have the 1/4" Ray Iles, pigsticker and may invest in a larger one. These chisels seem to me to be built specifically to pry wedges of wood from mortises. I would use firmer chisels to follow pigstickers or drilled holes for removing the roughed out scraps. I am planing to build a bench more like the Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo than one of Chris's designs. I will probably use the Benchcrafted plans with some modifications. Maybe I just need to go ahead and buy the plans to find out what size mortises they use. I think they may suggest using their Barrel Nuts to make some of the joints nock down and I am not sure how I feel about that yet.

[Jack Curtis]

...Maybe I just need to go ahead and buy the plans to find out what size mortises they use. I think they may suggest using their Barrel Nuts to make some of the joints nock down and I am not sure how I feel about that yet.

Sure, a good approach; but basically you can determine mortise/tenon sizes based on the leg dimensions, usually about a third at most. The other thing about prying wood, you get used to not doing it. I stopped completely when I started using Japanese mortising chisels, and I've since carried this practice over when using western mortising chisels. Why? Because I think it's kind of a sloppy practice. My chisels are now all trapezoidal with very sharp arrises, which help me cut clean mortises, so that all I need pry are some stray fibers in the bottoms, with some other tool. No paring chisel is ever needed for mortises, which means no tear out of great honking wedges. And often the bottoms can be cleaned up by tamping down the fibers.

A caveat concerns the western pig stickers with huge oval handles and rounded bevels. According to Andrew Cherubini, they're intended to be pushed and pried, no mallet/hammer required. I've tried this, and it seems to work, but I haven't done this on mortises, exactly, very shallow cuts so far. More later, after I cut some mortises this way.

Jack

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting thoughts Jack. Since I do not have established, preferred methods at this point I am open to them all. I was wondering about trapezoidal chisel shapes. I think you are talking about the edges of the chisels not being 90 degrees to the top or bottom faces as is frequently the case in more square mortise chisels? The Henry Taylor Firmer chisels I have been looking at have the angled edges which at first surprised me as I associated this shape as existing to help the chisel fit into dovetail corners. Sounds like Jack is suggesting that this shape also serves to cut clean mortises. The Henry Taylor Firmer chisels have what looks like an additional face on the edge which I was thinking just made a tougher edge, but does it dull the edge or sharpen it?

[lowell holmes]

I suggest you view the Frank Klausz video about mortice and tenon joinery. A lot of questions will be answered.

[James Taglienti]

I always thought socket chisels were the toughest

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

While I would probably hesitate to whack away on a paring chisel, or anything with a delicate, flexible blade, (although controlled, light tapping like you use when carving can be very helpful to guide cuts at times) I don't worry about it too much with anything else. I have chisels ground with very low angles that I don't whack at because I know the edge won't stand up to it, but other tools may get whack as need, particularly anything socket-chisel style.

I like heavy duty mortise chisels as much as the next guy - but I think these are really needed when you're chopping a mortise with just a chisel - when you start getting to the size of mortises in a bench, unless you're dealing with softer woods, I'm more apt to clear away at least some of the waste with an auger or drill or what have you, then clean things up with chisels. I don't care how beefy the chisel is, if I'm making a mortise an inch and quarter wide or whatever, I don't want to try and do that by just chopping straight into the wood.

At that point, anything sharpened with a bevel angle not too low is apt to work decently enough, provided the tool is reasonably stout, as you're splitting wood off into an open space, as opposed to driving into solid wood, like you'd do with a pigsticker making the mortise for a door construction or something. The wood is relatively weak along the grain, so you can split off wood from the sides pretty quickly, and then pare away at the end grain with some chopping and paring, which while it will be harder work, still doesn't require the stoutest of chisels compared to just driving it directly into the wood.

I don't know - just my opinion. If the blade isn't flexy, the bevel's not set super low for paring cuts, and even better if it's a socket chisel, I mallet away when the need arises.

[Andrae Covington]

Since I don't think anyone mentioned them, Narex chisels are another option. I have a set of their regular bench chisels, not the finely bevel-edged ones Lee Valley later commissioned, or the mortise chisels. They were the only chisels I had while building my workbench. Later I added some AI's for paring. I have whacked and wailed the Narex chisels with "mallets aforethought" :rolleyes:. The only damage, if considered, is that the neat dome shape of the top of the handles has flattened out and mushroomed over the metal hoops.

[Jack Curtis]

Interesting thoughts Jack. Since I do not have established, preferred methods at this point I am open to them all. I was wondering about trapezoidal chisel shapes. I think you are talking about the edges of the chisels not being 90 degrees to the top or bottom faces as is frequently the case in more square mortise chisels? The Henry Taylor Firmer chisels I have been looking at have the angled edges which at first surprised me as I associated this shape as existing to help the chisel fit into dovetail corners. Sounds like Jack is suggesting that this shape also serves to cut clean mortises. The Henry Taylor Firmer chisels have what looks like an additional face on the edge which I was thinking just made a tougher edge, but does it dull the edge or sharpen it?

Yes, my mortising chisels have very slightly wider backs than faces. This has nothing to do with dovetails, but if that works for you, all the better. The intent as I understand it is to aid in cutting a mortise, the wider backs with sharp arrises (the vertical edges) allow the chisel to clear out the wood with no prying, just chop down, then I follow the bevel. I don't do any sort of prep drilling, simply apply chisel to wood, then clean up with a couple of bottom cleaning tools. Since I've take the measure of the tenon directly off the chisel, everything pretty much fits.

I don't have any Taylor tools, so can't help you there. Beveled sides, which is what I think you're describing in the Taylor, don't do all that much for normal mortising, I go with four sided trapezoidal for both western and eastern chisels.

Jack

[Mike Holbrook]

Jack are your Japanese chisels like the ones Stu showed above? The blades look short & the handles kinda wide to work in many mortises.

There are two different Henry Taylor Firming chisels. I think the ones mentioned above are the heavier "Framer's" chisels. I can't exactly tell from the pictures but the heavy ones look like they have edges more like what Jack mentions, but the sides may be perpendicular to the backs & faces. The heavy chisels start at 1/2" which may be too big for the width of my mortises, so maybe a 3/8" regular firmer and a heavy 2" for sides? The heavy HT description says: designed for cleaning up mortices in heavy timbers after they have been drilled with a beam boring machine. I may start by drilling the mortises for my table with auger bits & a 12" brace.

[Jack Curtis]

Jack are your Japanese chisels like the ones Stu showed above? The blades look short & the handles kinda wide to work in many mortises. ...

No, Stu's chisels are more like timber framers or chutaki, although the small one may be too small for that, hard to tell. Most Japanese mortisers look like this:

[Mike Holbrook]

Ahh, those look like western butt mortise chisels. The handles look like they are built to be hit. Actually not that different from their western brothers although I imagine there are subtle, important differences.

[James Carmichael]

I am about to build a large bench with heavy base using mortise and tenons as the main joints and I would like to have at least a few heavier duty firmer or framing type chisels to work the larger mortises and tenons the bench will need. I am having a little trouble figuring out which chisels are designed more as former or firmer chisels than paring chisels.

If you want to make large mortises, go with a big mortise chisel. If the bench is the only project you expect to chop wide mortises on, I'd just drill and clean rather than spend a buch on a big mortise chisel. I haven't seen many over 1/2", anyway.

Just about anything except thin paring chisels can be malleted. You can also chop a mortise with a bevel-edge bench chisel, you just can't go as deep or pry out as much waste at one time. I just finished choping out 1" wide by 1 1/2 deep half-bridles with a 1" bevel-edge and beat heck out of it (after sawing out the sides like half-blind DTs). If you're thinking you need the paring chisels to clean up tennons, get a shoulder plane instead.

Rather than buying sets of everything, I suggest getting a basic set of bench chisels and a couple of mortise chisels, then add more as you figure out what you need and what works best for the work you do.

[Mike Holbrook]

James, I already did almost exactly what you suggest. I have 5 Ashley Isles bench chisels, not a set, and a Ray Iles Mortise chisel 1/4", bought mostly with cabinet making in mind. I bought a few auction chisels...Now I have a couple specific projects that I was thinking about buying a couple extra chisels for. Making a heavy Split-Top Roubo bench, sawbenches... I also do a fair amount of construction and occasionally find a need for a robust chisel or two for these projects. I am about to build a 57 x 10 foot room below a building that may need some large chisel work in 2x10s around the drain system...Drains water from where I keep dogs.

I have been reading Anarchist's tool Chest & Hand Tool Essentials, both seem to favor firming chisels over bench chisels as the main set one needs. I am not planing to buy a set of firmer chisels I just find that approach interesting. I guess the firmer chisels might serve a larger range of duties.

[James Hamilton]

I got a set of Stanley Fat Max chisels to beat on. They have an iron shank inside that connects the tip to the endcap. And they are very durable! I think I paid about $80 for a set from 1/4 - 1 1/2". I can't bring myself to use a hammer (or even heavy mallet) on a $50 chisel...

[Dave Lehnert]

I buy good quality chisels so I can whack on them. Why buy quality chisels in the first place only to pamper them. But yes, Kinda hard to do knowing you paid $50. Why I have a cheap set :o

[Jack Curtis]

I buy good quality chisels so I can whack on them. Why buy quality chisels in the first place only to pamper them. But yes, Kinda hard to do knowing you paid $50. Why I have a cheap set :o

I guess I assume the better chisels are better engineered for their tasks; so I'd be less likely to whack a cheapo, but useful for other purposes.

[James Owen]

Another option I forgot about earlier: If you're looking for large mortise chisels, Crown also makes mortise chisels (they are "registered" firmer-style chisels).

Sizes run 1/4" to 3/4" by 1/8"s, plus 1", 1-1/4", 1-1/2", and 2". The blades are 5/16" thick where the bevel starts running down to the edge, and slightly thicker at the neck. Sides are 90˚ square to the flats.

On mine, the bevels, out of the box, were ground between 25˚ (smaller sizes) and about 32˚ (larger sizes) -- very inconsistent. While cutting mortises, I quickly discovered that the edges don't last very long at those angles, and ended up putting a 1/8" to 3/16" wide 35˚ secondary bevel on them; edges lasted considerably longer then. I have no way to measure it, but based on subjective comparison to other chisels, my scientific wild guess (and that's all it is) is that they are hardened to about Rc 58; the edges (even at 35˚) don't last as long as those of some of my other (known-to-be-harder) chisels, but they are VERY quick and easy to sharpen, and will take a very nice edge. They appear to be made from O-1.

Handles are nice straight-grained ash, with leather washers and ferrules at the blade end, and about a 1/2" wide, 3/32" or so thick, steel hoop at the "hammer" end. Although I wouldn't recommend a steel hammer, you can certainly smash away all day long on these with a wooden mallet.....

**********

FYI, Woodworkersshop dot com currently (02 Jan 2012) has them for less than $60 each in the big sizes. (No affiliation; just found them on a quick web search.)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've always been taught to sharpen thick mortise chisels with a steep secondary angle (35 degrees or so) so the edge holds up, but a very shallow primary bevel, so when doing deep mortises in softwoods, you can really plunge the thing into the wood. If one of these thick chisels was sharpened with a 35 degree bevel all the way, you'd be hard pressed to get much penetration. So that's why so many mortise chisels come with shallow bevel angles. It'd be nice if they through the secondary bevel on there for you, or at least mentioned it in the packaging that that's the proper sharpening technique - it might not be obvious to some folks.

[Michael Ray Smith]

That's my approach -- I use the Stanleys and cheapo hardware store chisels (which are probably made by Stanley) to whack on . . . and to open paint cans (just joking - I use my wife's kitchen knives for that). Most of my other chisels are reconditioned vintage guys that would probably take the abuse just fine, but the mere possibility of breaking a 100-year-old tool sort of turns my stomach.

[Jim Koepke]

I buy good quality chisels so I can whack on them. Why buy quality chisels in the first place only to pamper them.

I think there is a disconnect when associating quality with the ability to withstand heavy force. There are many factors that go in to making a quality tool.

I have seen lots of quality cabinet length chisels with a bow in them because of being "whacked." I do not recall seeing butt chisels with bowed blades, but I have seen them with the socket leaning to one side or the other. Interestingly they were all of the same inexpensive medium quality brand.

I have also worked with people who can not regulate how hard they hit something with a hammer or mallet. A light tap and a crushing blow is the same for them.

Some of my chisels are very thin at the cutting end. A few have a bevel of 15º. These are great for paring and dovetail work. I might give them a light tap occasionally with my lighter mallets.

I also have heavier chisels that do not work well for paring, but they can go deep with a few whacks or wallops.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

OMG Michael you would be in trouble at my house. I am maybe even pickier about my knives than my chisels. I might have to sick a big dog on you!

This question of steels and the abuse they can take is an interesting but complex topic. I see this argued over & over on knife sites too. From what I understand steel hardness does not equate to steel toughness, often quite the opposite, as hard steel can be brittle. Most things dull more from pieces chipping off than bending, although both are factors of course. A Jack hammer chisel made of "hard" steel want last well at all they use "tougher" steel. Certainly the blade shape, sharpening technique, # of bevels...all have their effect on how a chisel handles being used more like a Jack Hammer.

I think the point here is there are trade offs to be made in terms of steel hardness and blade, bevel...design. The point being that there are two extremes of design in just about any edged tool design. I don't think both extremes can be designed for in one tool. We don't want to slice tomatoes with a Jack Hammer or try to remove a side walk with a tomato knife, to take the extremes to a ridiculous level. The point of my post is I am thinking of my Ashley Isles chisels as being more designed for and sharpened for more delicate work and my Ray Iles Mortise chisel as being on the opposite extreme. I think I want a couple or few chisels more designed to perform like the RI, but less oriented toward prying. I think the Henry Taylor offerings are the best designs I have found for the less delicate work I have in mind for them. Certainly how I adjust the bevels and sharpen any chisel will also move utility in one direction or the other.

[Jim Koepke]

Certainly how I adjust the bevels and sharpen any chisel will also move utility in one direction or the other.

This is just one of the reasons I have multiple sets of chisels.

Parers - light & thin, maybe a light tap now and then.
Tappers - bevel edge and a bit thicker, light mallet work
Hard hitters - square sided, can take a good hit from a medium mallet
Whackers - square sided and heavy, able to take heavy hits from my biggest mallet
Wallopers - barrel topped and mortise chisels, you can hear them laughing when being hit hard with a big mallet.

Beaters - all the others of different descriptions that are used when I don't want to take a chance with my good chisels.

jtk

[David Flynn]

A couple of the posts earlier in this thread mentioned the Lee Valley chisels with the plastic handles. I have a few of them, and I thought a photo showing the cross section view of them v. an Ashley Isles MKII would say more than words could.

218491218492

I have them sharpened at 30 degrees, and I feel comfortable pounding on them. I use the Ashley Isles more as a paring chisel sharpened at 25 degrees - it takes a great edge.

[Mike Holbrook]

David, thanks, very helpful, exactly what I was looking for, info. wise!

The LV chisels obviously have heavier blades which should allow them to stand up to more abuse. I think I will pick a few up. I also see that they are a similar length to the AI MKII's I have. I still think I will get a couple longer heavy chisels in larger sizes.

[john davey]

Well my beaters are a set of Stanley 60's. Find them at flea markets or yard sales for a buck or two. I also did pick up a fat max and it will take a beating.

[Bruce Haugen]

It's hard to overestimate the utility and toughness of Stanley 60's. That's what I grew up with, and the beating they will take and what I did to them, well, I should be ashamed of myself. But those chisels really knew how to take a whacking. Not to anthropomorphize or anything;);)

[Sean Richards]

I have a set of Stanley 60's in my tool tote that have served me well. These were my main chisels when I was boat building and later doing construction carpentry. My tool belt chisel was a old English Footprint brand firmer chisel with beech handle and a steel ferrule - has been used and abused for years and is still in great shape.

[Russell Sansom]

I hit all my chisels, except the parers, and even those some times. I've NEVER damaged a chisel by hitting it.

In my humble opinion, it you're damaging the handle, bending the blade, or cracking a properly thought-out bevel, you're hitting the chisel too hard.
This seems really obvious to me, but I may be missing something. The chisels you're discussing are the state of the art. They aren't somehow cheating on the compromise between sharp and durable. How you find Iles and Ln chisels is how good chisels are. Given that, I'll say it again: If you're damaging a chisel by striking it, you're striking it too hard. The difference in strength between socket and tang should be irrelevant. It a tang chisel fails for some reason other than its time has come, chances are it was hit too hard.

BTW, Having said all that, for fantastic modern beating chisels: The Barr's! They invite you to go ahead and whack them. If I have a bunch of 1/2 mortises to chop in some hard 2" oak, I'll leave the pig stickers in their cabinet and pull out the Barrs.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I just read this entire thread again and it has some very helpful information in it. I would love to have a few Barr chisels, they are obviously designed to be smacked. The Barrs are not cheap though and I think they are only sold in a set, although it is a smallish set. If that smallish set did not have the largish price...I have been following some chisel auctions but they make me nervous as I do not know much about the quality of the various manufacturers work. If I finally figure out LV's vises and order it I will try a couple of their beaters. I hear LV is about to come out with new chisels though and I have been kinda waiting.

I am surprised that no one mentioned Hirsch or Two Cherries chisels in this thread. These seem like fairly similar German design chisels built to be hit. They are also relatively inexpensive which makes me a little suspicious of the steel since I know the Hornbeam handles are tough.

[Bruce Haugen]

I am surprised that no one mentioned Hirsch or Two Cherries chisels in this thread. These seem like fairly similar German design chisels built to be hit. They are also relatively inexpensive which makes me a little suspicious of the steel since I know the Hornbeam handles are tough.

I have a set of Hirsch firmers from LV. Without a complete analysis you never know what sort of steel they're made of, nor do we know the heat treatment schedule. They're advertised as RC 61. They take a very good edge and a good beating, too, which is why I got them.

To extend this just a little more, one of my favorite woodworkers, on another forum, a graduate of the North Bennet School, recommends Marples Blue Chip chisels to newcomers (as he puts it) because for any chisel to be useful it has to be sharp and the Marples are easy to sharpen. He further said that many people at NBSS used Marples the whole two years they were there, and that "their work was immaculate."

[Mike Holbrook]

The Hirsch and Two Cherries chisels look almost identical, too much so to be coincidence IMHO. Are they made in the same place,the same only different....LV sells Hirsch and TFWW sells Two Cherries, neither company has sold me any junk yet.

[Bruce Haugen]

I've read in a number of places that they're made in the same factory. Why don't you just go wander on down to Highland Hardware? They stock the Hirsch plus Narex, plus just about everything else you can't afford, either :D

I got my Hirsch set on the advice of a seasoned woodworker who has lots of experience with chisel steels. He hasn't steered me wrong yet. I'm not really keen on the handles, though, and as soon as I can figure out a handle pattern I like better I'll replace them.

FWIW, my paring chisels are Bergs, and I'm working on a set of Fujihiro. I like chisels. My favorite chisel is a big, 2" Berg Shark-O-Lite, plastic-handled bugger given to me by a good friend. It doesn't ever get put away - it lives on the benchtop.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just don't know if the two chisels are actually the same or not. The only difference I see in pictures is there seems to be some brass in place of steel on the Two Cherries. TFWW has a small 4 piece set that has good sizes for the work I am thinking about using them for.

Bruce you know why I don't just wander down to Highland, now Woodworking, more often. They have too much of my money now! Plus the last time I went there it was so crowded I had to park in a metered spot with a broken meter, which ended up costing me another $45, for Mini parking! Even from where I am it takes half a day that I have to beg the wife for. I also see they carry those Barr chisels and I'm afraid I might end up with a set if I actually got my hands on them. Then there is a guy who has worked there for well many years who keeps threatening to charge me rent!

I don't have a 2" chisel yet, what do you use it for? Isn't that thing actually a plane?

[Jim Koepke]

I don't have a 2" chisel yet, what do you use it for? Isn't that thing actually a plane?

Of course everyone works differently...

My 2" chisel doesn't get much use.

My 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" get used enough that I have multiples in those sizes and use them all regularly.

Just now thinking about this, maybe my 2" should get a different handle as now it has a long cumbersome handle. I know just the piece of wood that is waiting to be turned.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

I think one of the biggies, maybe David Charlesworth, said on WoodCentral that his 2" was his most-used chisel. I use it for paring, marking, trimming, all-around sharp edge. Now, this thing is about 7-8" long. I also have a 2" Berg with a wooden handle, very long blade, thick as a firmer or heavier, more than a foot long, and it doesn't get used much at all.

At a woodworking school in N Minn last summer, I got a chance to whack on a Barr framing chisel with one of those nifty green urethane mallets. We were just visiting, but the instructor just let me beat on it to see what it was like. It was absolutely marvelous! Don't go into the same room as one of them. In fact, forget I said anything about Highland Hardware! ;)

[Mike Holbrook]

You guys are such teases! I can see a wide short chisel being great for marking lines etc. now that you mention it. So my mission should I choose to accept it is to find a short 2" chisel, unless I can't forget what Bruce said about those ugly, hateful Barr chisels )**&(&*(&)! They would be a business expense for building cabinets to keep all those dogs from chewing up or eating everything thats not nailed down though, right? I'm not rationalizing I swear. I guess Highland could ship those bad boys....noooo, 2"beater chisel,focus!!!!!

[James Carmichael]

My 1 & 1 1/2" are my most used. The weight & mass make them great for paring and easier to control. If you're sneaking up on a cut line, like a tenon cheek, you want as wide a chisel as possible, preferably one at least as wide as the joint, then you get a clean cut without the "seams" you get if using a narrower chisel.

[steven c newman]

220585220586Here is a nice old beater, by a company called Worth. Wrought iron, with a steel cutter welded on, AT the factory no less.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am wondering what the best sizes are to have in heavy duty chisels? Surely you guys are not cutting mortises with 1 1/4-2" chisels? The Barr Cabinet Chisels come in 1/4. 1/2, 3/4 & 1" set, although off sizes ?/8 can be bought separately. I am guessing 1/4 & 1/2 are good widths for cabinet mortises? The 3/4 & 1" might be good for cleaning sides? But maybe I need a 3/8 or a larger chisel? It does not sound like you guys are using those larger chisels for heavy whacking though. Ashley Isles has 1 1/2 & 2" chisels in an American Pattern that is a little shorter than the MK2's, which you guys have me thinking about even though they are not for heavy whacking. My guess is if one needs a 1-2" chisel for whacking it will take some major whacking to drive it so a big slick or framing chisel would be the best?

What do you guys think of the Veritas Cabinetmakers Mallet with the brass head and wood inserts for whacking with? 18 ozs sounds heavy enough and a 1 1/2" wood insert sounds big enough? I have lighter mallets for plane irons etc.

[Jim Koepke]

I am wondering what the best sizes are to have in heavy duty chisels? Surely you guys are not cutting mortises with 1 1/4-2" chisels?

I do a lot of work with construction lumber. A 1-1/2" chisel is about the same width as a piece of 2X. I use larger chisels often for lap joints and such.

The bigger stuff comes in handy if you are going to do some timber framing.

For furniture mortises you will likely not need anything bigger than 1/2" for mortising and that would not be too often.

A 1/4" and a 3/8" chisel for furniture mortising would be sizes that see a lot of use.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

I do almost exclusively furniture-type project these days. In my earlier days, however, I did finish carpentry, and the Stanley #60, 1-1/4" chisel was used a lot, especially in cutting in hinges. We didn't use routers then.

The only time I beat on a chisel is squaring off the ends of mortises, and then the biggest I reach for is a 1/2", but mostly 3/8".

[Jack Curtis]

I am wondering what the best sizes are to have in heavy duty chisels? Surely you guys are not cutting mortises with 1 1/4-2" chisels? The Barr Cabinet Chisels come in 1/4. 1/2, 3/4 & 1" set, although off sizes ?/8 can be bought separately. I am guessing 1/4 & 1/2 are good widths for cabinet mortises? The 3/4 & 1" might be good for cleaning sides? But maybe I need a 3/8 or a larger chisel? It does not sound like you guys are using those larger chisels for heavy whacking though. Ashley Isles has 1 1/2 & 2" chisels in an American Pattern that is a little shorter than the MK2's, which you guys have me thinking about even though they are not for heavy whacking. My guess is if one needs a 1-2" chisel for whacking it will take some major whacking to drive it so a big slick or framing chisel would be the best?

What do you guys think of the Veritas Cabinetmakers Mallet with the brass head and wood inserts for whacking with? 18 ozs sounds heavy enough and a 1 1/2" wood insert sounds big enough? I have lighter mallets for plane irons etc.

For furniture projects, I use 3/8" (9-10mm) and 1/4" (6mm) all the time, Japanese origin. For carpentry, I often use chu taki, heavy 1" and larger meant for carpentry chopping. In my system I almost never pare the sides of mortises, but on the odd occasion, any good paring chisel will do, even my ultra-thin 36mm.

Jack

[Mike Holbrook]

Can I get away with 1/4 & 1/2" chisels for cabinets? It would seem like a 1/4 would be what I need for doors and a 1/2 would work for carcasses. Maybe later on a 3/8" would come in handy for making chairs, tables, desks, chests....furniture?

[Jim Koepke]

Can I get away with 1/4 & 1/2" chisels for cabinets? It would seem like a 1/4 would be what I need for doors and a 1/2 would work for carcasses. Maybe later on a 3/8" would come in handy for making chairs, tables, desks, chests....furniture?

The conventional wisdom for a mortise is that it should be 1/3 the of the material being used.

So, if you are using:

3/4" stock, a 1/4" chisel is a good size.

1-1/2" stock, the 1/2" would be a good size.

I think 3/8" is kind of a compromise for 4/4 to 5/4 stock.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks Jim,
My problem is I am use to construction grade lumber and plywood, not raw hardwood so much. 3/4 is the size hardwood I have worked with that comes planed. I am about to buy some wood, probably 8/4 Ash for a bench. I am thinking about picking up some poplar too as I believe it easy to work, inexpensive. I would like to make cabinet doors from solid wood as opposed to plywood. Even for the rougher cabinets I want to make solid rails & stiles. So far I have been using planed southern pine 3/4" for rails & stiles. I have some Cherry a buddy gave me to play with and I have used some oak, maple & purple heart (for planes) but the early cabinets I will make for my shop and dog club club house need to use less expensive wood I think.

[Chris Vandiver]

The best advice I could give is for you to pick a project and then get the tools you need for that project, and go to work. In my opinion, this is the best way to get a feel for what you actually need to do the work. Is is very easy to become overwhelmed with ideas on the internet. So many opinions and way too much info to sift through. Once you actually start doing a project, things become much clearer.:)

[Mike Holbrook]

Just pick one project!!! I have wood, simple 2x4's drying in the garage to make a sawbench with, first project. I have plans and most of the parts for my bench project #2. I located some Ash to build it with but it will take a half day with no rain to go get it, a problem lately. Since the trip to get the wood is long I am thinking about getting some wood to make cabinets & work stations for my shop while I am there, the poplar-project #3. I have plywood for cabinet carcasses that I bought quite a while back when I found it on sale. Project #3 cabinet/work stations- saw station for the Millers Falls Langdon Miter Box & saw I just restored- saw till for my hand, panel & backsaws.

[Jack Curtis]

Just pick one project!!! I have wood, simple 2x4's drying in the garage to make a sawbench with, first project....

I don't think I needed any chisels to build my saw benchlet.

Jack

[Chris Vandiver]

Just pick one project!!! I have wood, simple 2x4's drying in the garage to make a sawbench with, first project. I have plans and most of the parts for my bench project #2. I located some Ash to build it with but it will take a half day with no rain to go get it, a problem lately. Since the trip to get the wood is long I am thinking about getting some wood to make cabinets & work stations for my shop while I am there, the poplar-project #3. I have plywood for cabinet carcasses that I bought quite a while back when I found it on sale. Project #3 cabinet/work stations- saw station for the Millers Falls Langdon Miter Box & saw I just restored- saw till for my hand, panel & backsaws.


Sounds like you have some projects to do. Good luck!

[Mike Holbrook]

The original Schwarz Sawbench has four through-mortises and tenons & eight large notches all drawbored. Seems like a good place to practice to me.

[Frank Drew]

The conventional wisdom for a mortise is that it should be 1/3 the of the material being used. Perhaps a better (more universally applicable) way to put this is that the tenon should be around 1/3 the thickness of the material used, and the mortise then sized to the tenon. With a mortised table leg, for instance, the mortise in most cases wouldn't be 1/3 the thickness of the leg.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think I needed any chisels to build my saw benchlet.

Jack

Please document this. I have used chisels on all my saw benches and saw horses.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

Please document this. I have used chisels on all my saw benches and saw horses.

The Kingshott version. I made it from a 2 X 12 pine board, joined the back leg (also 2X12) and top with a giant dovetail. So far no chisel; but I'll have to look at it to verify the front leg and stretcher. Please note the "I don't think..." phrase, since it's been 10 years at least since I built it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Back to the OP's original question, wait a minuet that's me! I have found quite a few articles and reviews on chisels to add to the information in this thread so In Summary: Sounds like the Barr chisels get the highest rating for toughness and ability to hold an edge in tough environments. Hirsch seems to be the most popular, although quite a few people apparently are not fond of the handles. Two Cherries are almost identical to the Hirsch's. I think some people just use chisels like the Lie-Nielsens or Stanley 750's for all chores. I don't think the Ashley Iles I have are built to take quite the punishment that the Stanley 750, socket types are. Somewhere in the middle of this pack are the Lee Valley chisels with the plastic handles, I will probably get a few of these to leave at my business building rather than having to borrow from the shop. I decided I would rather have wood handle chisels for my shop.

I want at least a few chisels with bodies made to take more abuse with handles set up to be struck. These chisels will be sharpened with a steeper bevel than my AI's. I liked the Henry Taylor chisels but I think the longer bodies might not be the best for general work of this type as I have read that longer bodies can bend under the mallet. I also read a couple reports that the steel on the Henry Taylors tends to chip when smacked. I may still get a HT or two down the road if I find the need for a long chisel, although I may end up with the HT paring chisels which seem to be the favorite HT offerings anyway. This leaves the race in my mind down to the Hirsch/Two Cherries or the Barr's. Obviously there is a large difference in the price of these two chisels that I am wieighing.

I discovered in this thread that the larger 1 1/2- 2" chisels are quite popular but typically used for a somewhat different set of chores than regular bench or smacking chisels. These chisels get used for paring and marking lines, defining edges, making saw lines....more relatively shallow paring functions. There is a problem locating these chisels though as many companies do not make chisels in these widths. It so happens that Ashley Iles makes American Pattern chisels that are a variation off Butt Chisels. These chisels look like they might work well for this type job. The only thing that worries me is these chisels may need a little tapping. Tapping is within the realm of these chisels stated purpose and they do have budinga handles. I may buy a rawhide mallet from Highland Hardware/Woodworking or Barr Tools especially for my AI chisels. TFWW offers 1 1/2 & 2" Two Cherries firmer chisels but they are 3-4" longer than the AI American Patterns and I think less suited to the specific task. I have been following a few auctions for short chisels in these sizes too.

The only thing that could change my findings is the lurking threat of a new Lee Valley offering.

[Tri Hoang]

It looks like you've decided on what chisels to get. May I suggest another factor one should consider in choosing/using an edge tool: sharpening efficiency. If one could resharpen a chisel in a minute or less then one could easily use an equivalent inexpensive Narex/Maple chisel in place of a more expensive one.

Another important factor in using edge tools is being receptive to their feedback. Listen to/feel for what the tool/wood is telling during the cut and one could effectively eliminate the chance of damaging the tool. It is very much the same as grinding. Once a proper technique has been developed, it's very difficult to blue the steel unintentionally.

[Mike Holbrook]

Tri, not sure I concur with the sharpen faster theory. This theory assumes that one has sharpening equipment available and ready to use close at hand, which I doubt is the case in many shops, certainly not in mine. I am thinking about building a sink into a cabinet in my shop, which would make it easier to stop and sharpen. When I am working with a scythe outdoors I carry a stone or two in a water container so I can stop every 5 minuets or so & resharpen but those are special stones designed for that purpose. I still tend to put the stones or container down when I get tired of carrying them and cover them up or just forget about them. At least outdoors, wielding wet stones does not wet down my shop or other tools.

I understand your second suggestion but I think there are some work materials that are just very hard, some woods like purple heart, even store minerals. Still I understand the principals you speak of. l will continue to try and apply them as best I can.

[Archie England]

Back to the OP's original question, wait a minuet that's me! I have found quite a few articles and reviews on chisels to add to the information in this thread so In Summary: Sounds like the Barr chisels get the highest rating for toughness and ability to hold an edge in tough environments. Hirsch seems to be the most popular, although quite a few people apparently are not fond of the handles. Two Cherries are almost identical to the Hirsch's. I think some people just use chisels like the Lie-Nielsens or Stanley 750's for all chores. I don't think the Ashley Iles I have are built to take quite the punishment that the Stanley 750, socket types are. Somewhere in the middle of this pack are the Lee Valley chisels with the plastic handles, I will probably get a few of these to leave at my business building rather than having to borrow from the shop. I decided I would rather have wood handle chisels for my shop.

I want at least a few chisels with bodies made to take more abuse with handles set up to be struck. These chisels will be sharpened with a steeper bevel than my AI's. I liked the Henry Taylor chisels but I think the longer bodies might not be the best for general work of this type as I have read that longer bodies can bend under the mallet. I also read a couple reports that the steel on the Henry Taylors tends to chip when smacked. I may still get a HT or two down the road if I find the need for a long chisel, although I may end up with the HT paring chisels which seem to be the favorite HT offerings anyway. This leaves the race in my mind down to the Hirsch/Two Cherries or the Barr's. Obviously there is a large difference in the price of these two chisels that I am wieighing.

I discovered in this thread that the larger 1 1/2- 2" chisels are quite popular but typically used for a somewhat different set of chores than regular bench or smacking chisels. These chisels get used for paring and marking lines, defining edges, making saw lines....more relatively shallow paring functions. There is a problem locating these chisels though as many companies do not make chisels in these widths. It so happens that Ashley Iles makes American Pattern chisels that are a variation off Butt Chisels. These chisels look like they might work well for this type job. The only thing that worries me is these chisels may need a little tapping. Tapping is within the realm of these chisels stated purpose and they do have budinga handles. I may buy a rawhide mallet from Highland Hardware/Woodworking or Barr Tools especially for my AI chisels. TFWW offers 1 1/2 & 2" Two Cherries firmer chisels but they are 3-4" longer than the AI American Patterns and I think less suited to the specific task. I have been following a few auctions for short chisels in these sizes too.

The only thing that could change my findings is the lurking threat of a new Lee Valley offering.

A very well-done summation, you have provided. Thanks. Having bought Fat Max Stanley's long before Narex came out, and having bought (used) LNs, and having acquired too many flea market beaters desparately in need of some lovin'), you ultimately are buying a "quality of life" sensation because most all of these chisels clean up, sharpen easily, and sooner or later need re-sharpening. I'm amazed that my LNs really do hold an edge that much longer than my Fat Max chisels; but so do the couple of old Stanley 750s, or to borrow from Bob Smalser's extensive list of good old steel, "Witherby", "Winchester", “James Swan”, "Chas Buck" or "L&IJ White" ... Greenlee and Buck Bros, New Haven Edge Tool, Ohio Tool, Crossman, DR Barton, Underhill, Union Hardware, Jennings, Sargent, GI Mix, Shapleigh Hardware, Eric Anton Berg, Dickerson, Gillespie, Wye, Dixon, PS&W or PEXTO, Robt Duke, Fulton, Merrill, Butcher, Stiletto, Hibbard OVB, Simmons Keen Kutter, Lakeside and several other old makers and hardware store brands."

I like owning a set; I like the consistency of use and knowing what to expect in use or sharpening. I wish you the best in picking out what's going to work best for you. It's great that we've got so many good choices--both old and new!

Archie

[Mike Holbrook]

Archie thanks,

Thanks for reminding me of Bob's list. I had those names written down and had been following auctions on quite a few chisels using Bob's list until I lost track of it. It seems to me that chisels are one of the hardest items to get auction deals on. I just copied the list of good manufacturers and will keep it close, compare it to the ones I am following...I still have not bought anything, but I am actively searching auctions and thinking about those Barrs.

If you found used LN chisels you must be patient and crafty, congrats.

[Mike Holbrook]

Highland Woodworking has a sale/hand tool demo going on. Registered clients get a card offering a 25% discount on a single hand tool. That nocks a good chunk off the hefty price of a set of Barr Carpenters Chisels. Well they may not be the prettiest chisels one can buy but these babies are stout. All they need is someone who knows how to use them....I'm working on it!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6817777103/in/photostream/lightbox/