Stainless steel supply hoses are actually just silver plastic

[Dan Friedrichs]

I noticed at the orange BORG that the braided stainless steel plumbing supply lines are actually braided silver-colored plastic (run your fingernail over the braid and the difference is obvious). Doing a little googling, I found out that this actually may be preferable, as chlorinated chemicals (often stored under sinks, near supply lines) can corrode stainless steel.

I recently installed a sink and used solid chromed brass supply lines (the kind you cut and bend into shape). It actually was awfully easy. Given how much cheaper these are than braided hoses, and given that they aren't exactly prone to swelling and bursting, I don't know why more people don't use these. Well, apparently they don't work well in earthquake-prone areas, but otherwise...

If you were tasked with installing a fixture, say, directly above a priceless painting - what supply lines would you use? What is the absolute most reliable thing that money can buy? I just find it incredulous that people are still suffering significant damage to their homes when cheap hoses burst. Manufacturers sell devices that allow you to use a solenoid to shut off the water supply to your washing machine when not in use (ostensibly to avoid the risk of burst hoses) - but do we really lack the technology to build a supply hose that can withstand a modest 100 PSI?

What about valves? Obviously ball valves are superior to gate valves, but is there really any difference between a compression-fit valve and a soldered-on valve? Would you trust those push-on "shark bite" fittings?

[Larry Edgerton]

Dan

I was a plumber before I started working construction, and some of the junk that is sold today amazes me, and I would certianly not use it in my home.

Part of the problem is the box stores. They want things at a price point, and they know that many of their customers don't know what they are doing so they can sell them anything they want. Hence the chrome plated plastic faucets and such junk.

Second, in their quest for DIY sales, they want products that a trained monkey can install, so now in the interest of assuming that the average customer may not have any experiance or an above average IQ, they make their products pander to the lowest common denominator. This is how we get the junk, but easy to install products that just do not make sense in the long run, this fact not being obvious to the inexperianced average Joe Homeowner looking to get his wife off his back on a Saturday.

The resulting problem as I see it is the Borgs drive down the standards, because of course what one installs themselves is the best thing since sliced bread. Push on fittings become ok, and so on and so on.

I am dealing with a customer right now that is doing his own plumbing using Borg stuff. Million dollar home with tinkertoy plumbing fittings? Makes no sense to me at all.

My new house will be plumbed with copper supply lines, and there will be none of those braided plastic lines running to the sink. I have had trouble with compression shutoff valves that come from China, so I will use Wolverine Brass valves, If they are still made in the USA.

Larry

[Rich Engelhardt]

Would you trust those push-on "shark bite" fittings?
Actual SharkBite brand - yes.

[Anthony Whitesell]

The braided hoses I purchased were braid over rubber, so the water was not contained by the braid. Therefore the clorine or any other chemical should not effect the braided portion. Makes me wonder about the burst strength of the plastic braid versus the metal braid.

Along thess lines, I noticed that the ID of the braided hose was smaller than the non-braided hose. Funny thing is, this allows a better shower while the washer is filling, although it takes longer to do a load of wash.

[Van Huskey]

The braided hoses I purchased were braid over rubber, so the water was not contained by the braid. Therefore the clorine or any other chemical should not effect the braided portion. .

OP was talking about chemicals stored under sinks not chemicals moving through the hose.

[Brian Elfert]

I've noticed the "fake" stainless hoses at the store. I have purchased real stainless hoses for my needs.

I used Sharkbite brand fittings all over a motorhome I replumbed with PEX. No issues to date. My dad used Sharkbite water heater hoses for his water heater because for some strange reason he couldn't get solder to stick to the copper no matter how much he cleaned the copper and fluxed it.

[Anthony Whitesell]

OP was talking about chemicals stored under sinks not chemicals moving through the hose.

Oops. Missed that. My bad. But the ID thing still applies.

[Greg Peterson]

Larry - Curious as to why you are using copper rather than PEX?

[ray hampton]

Dan

I was a plumber before I started working construction, and some of the junk that is sold today amazes me, and I would certianly not use it in my home.

Part of the problem is the box stores. They want things at a price point, and they know that many of their customers don't know what they are doing so they can sell them anything they want. Hence the chrome plated plastic faucets and such junk.

Second, in their quest for DIY sales, they want products that a trained monkey can install, so now in the interest of assuming that the average customer may not have any experiance or an above average IQ, they make their products pander to the lowest common denominator. This is how we get the junk, but easy to install products that just do not make sense in the long run, this fact not being obvious to the inexperianced average Joe Homeowner looking to get his wife off his back on a Saturday.

The resulting problem as I see it is the Borgs drive down the standards, because of course what one installs themselves is the best thing since sliced bread. Push on fittings become ok, and so on and so on.

I am dealing with a customer right now that is doing his own plumbing using Borg stuff. Million dollar home with tinkertoy plumbing fittings? Makes no sense to me at all.

My new house will be plumbed with copper supply lines, and there will be none of those braided plastic lines running to the sink. I have had trouble with compression shutoff valves that come from China, so I will use Wolverine Brass valves, If they are still made in the USA.

Larry
plumbing is construction but construction are not plumbing
cutting copper tubing the correct length to solder to other tubing is a art and it will take longer to install compare to a plastic tubing, I would recommended copper lines IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE STEALING OF THE COPPER

[Mike Cutler]

I'd use copper pipe.
I have 25+ years installing all types of tubing materials, in differing processes, from pure water to sulfuric acid, inert and explosive gasses, and at pressures from inches of water to 25,000+ psi. I've run miles of tubing, and repaired them all.
If you want to plumb your house, I'm sorry but my experience says copper.
Sharkbites and such are fine, but there is no way I'd stick a compression fitting, or run poly tubing, through a wall. In an exposed basement maybe, a wall, no way.

Dan
The process you're referring to is intragranular stress corrosion. "Some" Stainless steels in the presence of certain flourides can cause an the stainless to become brittle and delaminate.
I do a lot of work with 316 stainless tubing, and Monel, and it's an issue.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry - Curious as to why you are using copper rather than PEX?

When I was a plumber in the seventies there was another plastic product that was the answer to all of our problems, will never rust, rot nor mildew. Fast forward 15 years and it is starting to fail, houses are being ruined, and that is actually what started the whole black mold hoopla at that time.

Now I will not argue that Pex is not a better tubing than that old gray plastic, but it is still a plastic with an unknown lifespan, simply because it is new relitively, and time is the only real proof. I further do not like how they are connected, and I do not want to have to look at that crap in my mechanical room.

I have seen a hundred of these kinds of things come and go, best thing since sliced bread one day, gone the next. I don't plan on ever moving out of the house I am building now, but I do plan on living more than twenty years and at 75 I don't want to have to fix my house because my plastic plumbing failed.

Some one once wrote:

"Its OK to build castles in the air, so long as you put foundations under them."

That is kind of how I see things. I know copper pipe will last as long as my wife will live, and this is her house I am building. She is younger than I and when I am gone I do not want her to have any hardships simply because I was cheap. Only the best for my baby......

Larry

[Greg Peterson]

Thanks Larry. As prone to debatitist as I am (or at least according to my wife), I can not get so much as a toe hold on any of your reasonings.

So, are you using cast iron for DWS or ABS?

[Joel Goodman]

I have noticed that the plumbing supplies sold in the Big Box and DIY type hardware stores are not remotely the same quality as can be found in the plumbing supply houses that the plumbers use. I assume the pros don't want the callbacks! I wouldn't buy any plumbing supplies at a DIY store -- even the faucet aeriators they sell don't last.

[Jim Becker]

I know copper pipe will last as long as my wife will live, and this is her house I am building. She is younger than I and when I am gone I do not want her to have any hardships simply because I was cheap. Only the best for my baby......

'Better hope you don't have acidic water! I wanted to use PEX for our addition due to all the complications that we have had in only 12 years of home ownership here with copper pin-holing, but our township actually has an ordinance that requires water lines to be copper. Even the plumber was shaking his head about that, knowing that copper is not a "forever" solution here and some other local townships encourage PEX for that reason. Yes, one can install acid-remediation, but that has other ramifications since it alters the water chemistry in other ways, too.
----

To the OP on the thread topic, I do my own plumbing most of the time and have learned the hard way that one must be very, very careful when sourcing components. You cannot make any assumptions at all about something based on looks, especially at the borg. Unfortunately, most of the "real" plumbing supplies around here are not very "non-pro" friendly, nor are they open when normal humans can shop for things they need for weekend projects. That leaves the 'borg and the sad need for "buyer beware" shopping methodologies.

[Brian Elfert]

As Jim Becker pointed out, copper is not always the right material for water either.

The technology used to plumb houses has changed since houses first got indoor plumbing. I know a lot of people with older homes plumbed in metal who have had to re-plumb with copper or plastic as the metal developed leaks or the water flow slowed to almost nothing. I wouldn't doubt that plumbers resisted the change from metal to copper too.

20 years from now people might look at you funny if you plan to plumb a house in copper if PEX develops a good track record.

About five or six years ago I toured a new million dollar house ($1 million house at the time). The builder had used PEX piping. Now, I'm not saying PEX is right just because it was installed in a million dollar house. My house was built in 2001 and it was done with copper (They didn't ask me what type of pipe to use.). With some of the crap building I see in some new houses I would rather have PEX plumbing than some of the other junk they install to cut costs.

[Mike Cutler]

Brian

You and Jim are both correct in stating that copper may not always be the "most correct" material. It still is however, the heart of a PEX system.
My observations of POLY/Plastic/CPVC materials is that the material itself does not fail, it is the mechanical connection interface that experiences fatigue and begins to fail. The joint begins to fatigue due to process temperatures and pressures varying and flow vibration accelerates the problem. How long will it take? Decades probably for supply lines, but now PEX is being used in radiant heat systems and that's going to be a different story. Thermal expansion/contraction is going to be an issue. I'd use PEX personally, but only if all the mechanical connections were accessible and replaceable

Brian
I don't know many plumbers that are resisting PEX. It's fast, and very easy to install. A whole house, new construction, can easily be done in a day.
The bid is for the job, not the time, and the bids are scheduled as if copper is still being installed.




Jim
The quality of the material in a big box store isn't the best, but the quality of what is coming from supply houses is diminishing also. It's not going to take long before they are similar. Profit/price point will always win in the end.
Shop online for your plumbing needs next time the need arises. There are some very good online suppliers that are very helpful over the phone. Plumbing parts and materials are not very complicated in their nature. It's the material spec, seats, and packing that make the difference.
I know what you mean about the plumbing supply stores. It's actually too bad because they are going to lose the sale no matter what.
I work on pressurized process systems,valves, and control systems exponentially more complicated than anything that will ever be installed in a house, and I still get the attitude also. I work on explosive gas systems at 100's of psi and somehow I'm supposed to be too inept to install a propane fitting at 11" of water, or replace a water heater.
Of course I've never understood the philosophy of installing a cadillac plumbing system only to terminate it at the cheapest faucets and fixture someone can find, even in million dollar houses. If there's one valve you want to put the money into, it's the one that gets used a hundred times a day, not the brass shutoff valve(s) in the basement that might get cycled once in 10 years.

As for the OP's original question; Move the painting.

[Larry Edgerton]

Brian


My observations of POLY/Plastic/CPVC materials is that the material itself does not fail, it is the mechanical connection interface that experiences fatigue and begins to fail. The joint begins to fatigue due to process temperatures and pressures varying and flow vibration accelerates the problem. How long will it take? Decades probably for supply lines, but now PEX is being used in radiant heat systems and that's going to be a different story. Thermal expansion/contraction is going to be an issue. I'd use PEX personally, but only if all the mechanical connections were accessible and replaceable

Brian
I don't know many plumbers that are resisting PEX. It's fast, and very easy to install. A whole house, new construction, can easily be done in a day.
The bid is for the job, not the time, and the bids are scheduled as if copper is still being installed.

.

I do use Pex in radiant floor systems, even in my own house. I insist on Stadler tubing. There are a lot of brands that are cheaper but Stadler has the lowest oxygen permiation level I could find and a long track record. Also I insist on no connections being buried. All runs must be home runs to the manifold. Remote manifolds are fed with copper, and in an accessable enclosure that is panned to a drain. Like you say, it is the connections that are most worrisome.

Greg

Ha! No cast iron here. I had to learn that to get my Journeymans, but never did much of it. Its quiet! No it will be PVC, it has proven itself, and it is not under pressure. I have worked on houses that were plumbed with copper waste, but they had problems because of the acid.

Jim

I have never ran into that, acid in the water. Is it a natural occurance or man made? We have great water here. Wherever else I have lived I have missed the water here. People take it home with them when they come here on vacation, its that good.

Does it cause problems with plants and gardens? Do you have to buy drinking water? Curious....

Larry

[Rich Engelhardt]

Sharkbites and such are fine, but there is no way I'd stick a compression fitting, or run poly tubing, through a wall. In an exposed basement maybe, a wall, no way.

Mike,
It's hard for me to tell by the way you're saying that.
Would you or wouldn't you use a Sharkbite behind a wall?

The actual Sharkbite brand states it's fine for behind wall use.
I'd figure if it failed, then they'd be on the hook for the damages.

This would be a tough one on my part. I can't solder joints worth a diddly. My plumber told me it's because I've been using propane instead of Mapp gas.
Personally, I think the good Lord just looked at me and when I was born said, "Make him fat and antisocial & Oh yeah,,, throw in an inability to solder copper plumbing".

Since I'd probably hire out any plumbing behind a wall it's probably a moot point. I do think I'd trust a Sharkbite though if I had to.
I;d sure as heck never trust on of my solder joints!

[Dan Hintz]

I trust my copper-to-copper joints without question... my copper-to-brass joints, however... can't ever seem to get those to work (though I've never tried MAPP gas, and people say that's the trick).

[Mike Cutler]

Rich

No, I personally would not put a Sharkbite type fitting in an encased wall. I would put them in a access panel where the rest of the manifold/valve body is accessible for repair, but in a sheetrocked wall, No. That's a personal philosophy only, and I do think the Sharkbites are very nice. They're quality fittings.
I do use them, and have one permanently installed on my WellTrol inlet piping, 1" and there is a 90 degree sharkbite shutoff ball valve at each outdoor sealcock. Other than that I've just used them temporarily. One more kitchen sink job, and a new gas water heater, and my plumbing work is at an end.

A propane torch does not develop sufficient heat to solder effectively. Next time you're in the 'Borg pick up one of the Mapp gas bottle kits. It's yellow and is in the plumbing section. Give it a try and you'll probably improve your soldering skills very quickly. The other tip I would give you is that the prep is everything. Those parts have to be absolutely clean and free of contaminants prior to applying the flux, or the heat. Make sure you have the correct solder also.
For brass valves, this is where Larry's advice is key. High quality valves can be disassembled and soldered, then reassembled once cool. The cheap valves have been dimpled at the bonnet to prevent the valve from being taken apart at the stem seal and removing the internals without damaging the stem packing/ body to bonnet threads.

[Larry Edgerton]

Personally, I think the good Lord just looked at me and when I was born said, "Make him fat and antisocial & Oh yeah,,, throw in an inability to solder copper plumbing".

I;d sure as heck never trust on of my solder joints!

That cracked me up!

Mapp gass is the key along with good prep. Most novices I see try to solder are impatient, and usually put the heat in the wrong spot. You want to put the flame where you want the solder to run. In other word you heat the fitting, not the pipe. The flame is hottest just where the blue disappears, so put that at the part of the fitting that you want the solder to run to and set the solder at the pipe/fitting junction on the opposite side of the joint. Be patient, when the joint is hot enough, the solder will melt and run back in the joint, even if it is upside down.

Brass is always thicker and so has more mass, and therefore takes more heat, again be more patient. When its hot enough, the solder will run home.

Mapp gas, Mapp gas, Mapp gas......

Larry, who loved new plumbing, but hated used plumbing......:(