Looking for advice about learning to cut dovetails / dovetail tools

[Cory Fletcher]

Hi guys, I am going to learn how to cut dovetails by hand I have used power tools to cut them in the past but I want to be able to cut them by hand. I guess I will start with the tools I am looking at and ask for your help in deciding on a saw and a chisel / set. I have been looking at the Veritas® Molded-Spine (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42884&p=68511&ap=1)dovetail saw and the Narex bench chisel (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/narexboxed6-piecebenchchiselset.aspx) set any thoughts on these tools do any of you have experience with these?
I also picked up the FWW dvd while it was on sale so I am reading all they have on dovetails. With all that said what advice would you offer someone new to working with hand tools and wanting to learn dovetails?
Thanks,
Cory

[Archie England]

Sounds like a solid pair of tools to start with. Check out dovetail markers, too. It's another good jig to start with, perhaps these http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32586&cat=1,42936,50298&ap=1 which are under "other markers" in the "Marking" section at LV. Highland Woodworking (Atlanta) also sells a variety. If you'll search "dovetail" and choose "marking" on their website, you'll see a good variety of other markers along side of the Veritas ones. Be sure to make or buy a wood mallet for whacking your chisels. And, have you considered whether you'll use a coping saw to remove most of the waste prior to chopping and cleaning out pins and tails. With that said, the two single most important steps (FOR ME) deals with squaring up the ends of my panels and marking them for depth of cut. Two types of marking gauges are out there: pins and cutters. I definitely have to use the cutter type. I'm horrible at pulling a pin across grain! I'm still inconsistent on cutting a perfect line with my square since I still bear down to harshly on the far end and typically "push it" a tad off. The cutter gauge I bought sets securely on the edges, locks down tightly, and cuts an excellent, deep scoring line.

I hope others will chime in and provide their more, experienced insights, too. Again, welcome!

Welcome to the hand tool side.

[Terry Beadle]

Learning how to cut by hand dove tails will be a lot of fun.

Your tool choices are a very good start.

I would recommend you start your practice with wood that is predictable with a chisel cut. By that I mean, avoid Southern Yellow Pine. Poplar, cherry or mahogany are very predictable in comparison. Also I would suggest you don't hit your chisel with anything but a lite tap.

Spend a extra bit of time sharpening your chisel. Take it up to your max grit and then hit it with some LV green rouge honing compound. It should pop hair off your arm. Think sharp. Be sharp. Become one with the edge....whoops...the votex got me ! Hoot!

Also don't pick some thing like red oak to start with as the wood is non-compressable. By that I mean, if you cut a tail in red oak, the socket must absolutely fit the tail exactly. The red oak will not forgive a few thou and gaps will show if you are too loose.

On the cut line of the sockets, be sure to take only a micro tap in the initial cut. You will want to sneak into the cut so as to not let the chisel bevel trust the cut into the line. View the chisel for the initial cut from the side and not the face of the chisel. This is to see the verticle or a 1 to 2 degree in cut.

I would also recommend you cut the sockets with out sawing any of the waste away at first. The wood waste will help the chisel maintain the cut where you want it.

Don't force the tails into the sockets. It should fit snug but not tight. Allow for the glue on the long grain surfaces room.

Cut the tails a little long. About 1/32 to 1/16 th will leave the tail a little proud of the sockets. This will allow you to plane the side flat with a low angle block plane or a LN 62.

Practice hand sawing to a line. Then practice hand sawing to split the line. Then practice splitting a line drawn at 7 degrees or what ever you choose for a dove tail angle, 1 in 6 for softwoods, 1 in 8 for hardwoods.

Don't worry, practice will make perfect.

Practice until you can hand cut the joint with out having to pare any of the surfaces and it will fit together snug. It's a goal. It's going to take a while to get there but you will if you don't rush or worry. See worry comment above ! Hoot!

Enjoy!

[Prashun Patel]

I have both of those. They're great 'economy' buys, and perform very well for me.

You might also pick up the Narex skew chisel set. It's pretty cheap and can help getting into corners.

Also, get a coping saw with good blades. It'll help remove the bulk of the pins and tails before chiseling. Honestly, a 'cheap' coping saw with good blades has worked well enough for me. It's the chisel and saw that are more critical purchases.

Also, buy a lot of scrap poplar. It's a great wood to practice on. The 'dovetail-a-day' is the best way to get your chops.

Last, you'll have to decide how you like to mark. Some people like a knife, some a sharp pencil. I've found that if you practice enough, it doesn't really matter which you use; you'll compensate once yr sawing; chiseling skills improve.

[Carl Beckett]

Great advice here as always.

Over the last year, I have made the transition 100% to hand cut dovetails. At this stage, its faster (and more satisfying) than router work. The advice that I would echo made the most gain for me (at least to start):

#1) "Practice hand sawing to a line. Then practice hand sawing to split the line. Then practice splitting a line drawn at 7 degrees or what ever you choose for a dove tail angle, 1 in 6 for softwoods, 1 in 8 for hardwoods."

#2) "Also, buy a lot of scrap poplar. It's a great wood to practice on. The 'dovetail-a-day' is the best way to get your chops."

#3) "Also, get a coping saw with good blades. It'll help remove the bulk of the pins and tails before chiseling. Honestly, a 'cheap' coping saw with good blades has worked well enough for me. It's the chisel and saw that are more critical purchases." (you will have to decide on pull saw or western saw - but dont be afraid to try one and switch out for the other at some point - btw I use/like that Veritas saw after having switched from a pull saw). SHARP chisels have no substitute.

#4) "Last, you'll have to decide how you like to mark. Some people like a knife, some a sharp pencil. I've found that if you practice enough, it doesn't really matter which you use; you'll compensate once yr sawing; chiseling skills improve."

I will add: Watch some videos. There are many out there on youtube and links from SMC - I find I learn some technique by watching and then lots of practice and then watching something else. To a large degree, its all personal choices on the specific tricks that you want to adopt (there are many, and it will be an iterative process to learn, test, practice, try something different, etc).

Of course you will have to decide which is superior - tails first or pins first.....

[Chris Griggs]

Great advice here as always.

#1) "Practice hand sawing to a line. Then practice hand sawing to split the line. Then practice splitting a line drawn at 7 degrees or what ever you choose for a dove tail angle, 1 in 6 for softwoods, 1 in 8 for hardwoods."



In my mind this is the single most important point in learning to cut dovetails. If your initial cuts are done properly, everything else comes together relatively easily. If you mess this up, things can get pretty tough to fix. If you cut tails first, the most important thing to pay attention to is that the cuts are dead square across the end grain. Check the squareness of every single cut BEFORE you even think about transferring any marks to cut the pins. Getting the angles down the side of the board exact, while aesthetically pleasing, is not at all important in terms of fitting the joint and avoiding gaps.

If you are certain to make sure that those initial cuts are square you will avoid most problems before they occur. I can't emphasize that enough, for me it was by far the single biggest factor in learning to cut acceptable dovetails.

And oh yeah, make sure you start with stock that is flat and square.

[steven c newman]

IF you can, find Roy Underhill's PBS show on pbs.org. Look up dovetails. I remember that he had one entire show on just dovetails. Worth the watching.

[Jim Koepke]

Cory,

I see you have been watching awhile welcome to the posting side of the Creek.

Your profile doesn't have a location listed. You may live close to someone here who would be happy to help you one on one.

Lots of good advice already posted above.

I taught myself to cut dovetails and after all these years I am still happy to read more or try new tricks.

Almost all of my dovetails are in western pine or fir. It can be very frustrating because the wood can move while you are cutting it.

For practicing I will take a piece of wood and cut it in half. One piece is the tail board and the other the pin board. I will usually mark off two sockets or two tails and start going. When they are fit together I will cut the pieces about an inch from the inside corner. They are dated and evaluated to see how they can be improved.

The pieces of wood are then used again for the next practice sets.

Usually before this I will practice cutting to lines. Mark the lines all around the practice piece. This will let you check the three sides of the cut. Then you can work on correcting any errors.

Derek Cohen has some good information on dovetails here:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html

jtk

[Mark Dorman]

Learning how to cut by hand dove tails will be a lot of fun.

Your tool choices are a very good start.


Practice hand sawing to a line. Then practice hand sawing to split the line. Then practice splitting a line drawn at 7 degrees or what ever you choose for a dove tail angle, 1 in 6 for softwoods, 1 in 8 for hardwoods.



Enjoy!

+ 1 on the cut to a line practice. I lay out lines about an 1/8" apart on the end grain and both faces on a 1 x 4. Straight then angled as mentioned by Terry.

It helps with layout practice and you can see how your doing by comparing the cut to the line.

[Andrew Teich]

Here is the link to Roy Underhill's Dovetail Variations.
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2600/2613.html

I got the three saw set from LV. I haven't used the 20tpi saw much yet but I have only done dovetails in 3/4" stock so far making my workbench and some portable saw and plane tills. I am very happy with the saws and while I don't have much else to compare them to they are perfectly functional and more affordable than some other new options.

I also got the Narex set from Highland and with their free shipping promotion going on right now I just ordered the rest of the Narex chisels to complete the set from 3mm-32mm. I think I'm pretty happy only a few functional, but non-pretty dovetail projects in, with the Narex chisels. Looking forward I may wish that I had gotten them in imperial sizes.

I mark the angles for the dovetails with a t-bevel or just put the board in the vise at the appropriate angle and saw straight down. This has worked well, but again I have not completed any pretty dovetail projects yet. I was just reading again somewhere that Roy says that if a dovetail looks right, it is right. Save your pennies and not buy one of those markers for now. I do use a small 2 or 3 inch engineers square a lot.

I purchased a cheap coping saw from one of the big box stores here for $6. It doesn't tension the blade properly so I am using an old rusty one I got in a box of free tools. It tensions well but the handle is crooked and about ready to come apart. I think Highland and others sell the Olson coping saw (Schwarz approved) for only about double what I paid for my original tool shaped object and it would come with a good blade too.

I took a class after struggling to do dovetails on my own and that led me to buying the Veritas saws as well as a Jeff Hamilton marking gauge. It's really neat looking and works great too.

My first successful dovetails were in Aspen.

All the best. Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A nice saw is nice to have - it frees you from wondering if the problem is the saw or you. Once you know how to cut properly, you can probably do it with anything - but it sure helps to learn on the right tools. I've heard it compared to instruments - I can probably play most any guitar now (not amazingly, but well enough) but when I was just learning, having a guitar that wasn't fighting me all the way was a blessing. Same thing as when I learning to drive stick - a well behaved car in driver's ed was a heck of a lot easier than my dad's beater with lots of "idiosyncracies" (putting it nicely.)

Also +1 on what folks are saying about learning to saw. Once you learn to saw well and can saw to the line, you can do most anything. That's the key to good dovetails. If you can get them to fit right off the saw, not only will things go faster, but you won't have the oppotunity to make them worse trying to fiddle them where things are tight.

Marking is the other thing that's key - learning to mark accurately means you can saw accurately. It doesn't matter how well you saw if the line you're cutting to is marked out wrong. To this end, I find at least a shallow rabbet helps keep the board in place while I transfer my marks from one end to the other. I cut tails first, hence why this helps - I've seen folks who cut pins first use clamps and a board to help align difficult to hold pieces. I actually have been making quite a large rabbet lately, to help hide grooves in boxes and such.

My first successful DT's were in walnut. They were my first real tails, and I think the reason they were so successful was because I understood and was capable of the basics (marking and sawing) before I began.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

There are better chisels; there are possibly better saws (although this is debatable). But the Narexes are very, very good, as good as I've ever seen a Cr-Mn chisel, and they're at an excellent price. Ditto the Veritas saw; very, very good and an excellent price. Go for it.

The most important thing to do with dovetails is to practice. Make boxes. Lots of boxes. You'll get better as time goes on. I'm partial to the Frank Klausz method but there's no point in dogma for these things. Cut them, see how you liked it, cut so you pare as little as possible (ideally fit straight off the saw), do it again. You don't need a coping saw for thin wood; exactly where the dividing line is depends on species (poplar is easy, oak is a little harder) but I usually figure when dovetailing in woods thicker than somewhere between 3/4" and 1" thick the coping saw starts saving time; in ½" drawer sides it's pointless.

[Steve Branam]

Here's a blog post I did on practice sawing to a line for dovetails: http://www.closegrain.com/2011/07/night-of-100-cuts.html. Repetitive sawing will help you dial it in faster than just a few at a time. You'll be surprised how quickly you see improvement.

[Jim Matthews]

One thing that may not have been mentioned, use a coping saw to hog out waste, where possible.

The more banging you do near a dovetail or pin, the more repairs you'll encounter.
Not that any of mine have ever needed replacement, mind you.

That's my story, anyway.

Go to Derek Cohen's inestimable website (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/), he covers the subject well.
I owe DC more than a few brews, his website has been so helpful.

[Bob Jones]

You have lots of options. The way I learned was as follows -
1) watch the 1st Rob Cosman dovetail video.
2)buy the tools that he suggests (its not many)
3) make 30 practice joints in poplar (4in wide stuff from Home Depot is perfect).

Don't overload yourself with info. There are lots of ways to go. Just pick one and make it work.

[Jim Koepke]

Here's a blog post I did on practice sawing to a line for dovetails: http://www.closegrain.com/2011/07/night-of-100-cuts.html. Repetitive sawing will help you dial it in faster than just a few at a time. You'll be surprised how quickly you see improvement.

Steve,

Thanks for posting that. I have only taken a quick look, but it looks like a good resource for people starting on dovetails or wanting to improve their skill level.

jtk

[Cory Fletcher]

*Update * I either have or have on the way the list below. Thanks for all the info and advice. I plan on getting the shop cleaned up this weekend and next weekend start making some cuts when I get my new toys I mean tools in.
Veritas® Dovetail Saddle Markers (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42936,50298&p=49424)
Veritas® Wheel Marking Gauges (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42936,59455&p=59455)
Veritas® Mk.II Honing Guide (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1)
Granite plate and sandpaper for sharpening
Narex® Classic Bevel-Edge Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41504&p=67707)
Narex® Skew Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41504&p=67766)
Veritas® Dovetail 14tpi (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42884,64007&p=64007)

[bob blakeborough]

Don't forget a decent sharpening media for the chisels. Dull chisels will make tough work out of learning how to dovetail...

[Paul Saffold]

Kari Hultman has a nice video on her blog "The Village Carpenter" http://villagecarpenter.blogspot.com/2009/06/handcut-dovetails-video.html She does some really beautiful work, too.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Sounds good to me. I suggest you get the 3M micro-abrasives (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072) if you haven't already; I find that I'm not happy with edges that aren't sharpened to about 0.5-1µ abrasives, however you get there, but otherwise you're pretty good. The PSA is nice but not that critical, and they last longer than the usual wet-dry sandpaper. I use stones nowadays but I'm told it is worth using some sort of honing solution, tho; mineral oil or water or whatever's convenient.

You may find you want something that you only have to buy once and not repeatedly as time goes on; this means stones. There's lots of stones, and lots of debates about them here, which you can peruse at your leisure.