Lie Nielsen is a great company, but..... can anyone explain this "rust" problem

[Mike Kelsey]

I Bought the number 8 jointer about 4 months ago but never opened the packaging - kept it a dry cabinet with other planes - till today & was surprised to see the "rust". I called LN (20 minutes before they closed), describing what I called a "snowflake" patterned rust (orange with whitish edges). After consultation on her end she said try a Scotch-brite pad. She said it may have been something in the packaging. Speaking of packaging the jointer was wrapped in some dry brown paper stating: don't unwrap until use. As you can see in the pics (after Scotch-brite use) the metal is pitted on the sole and sides (nothing else on the plane appears affected, but I didn't take anything apart).

I was told that if it was rust to call for a return authorization and they would re-machine it. I have to admit I was a little surprised they didn't just offer to replace it since it is new.

My questions/concerns for neanders: Can anyone identify the "rust"? Could it actually be some other chemically caused problem or inherent in the metal itself? I noticed when I unwrapped the plane it was dry, no protective lubricant at all - just the brown "protective" paper. . I did ask the lady & she said there is usually a small amount of protective coating. If re-machining is the answer, what caused the pitting in the first place should I request a "new" plane just to be safe?

I like LN products a lot & this is the only one that came with a "problem". I'm sure they'll make it right, I just hope I don't have use my Woodcraft jack (nice plane BTW) as a jointer for months:(.


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[Chris Griggs]

I thought all their planes came sealed in blue plastic bags as well. That rust is bizzarre. Send it back, and honestly, I would ask them if they'll reimburse you for return shipping. Lee Valley and TFWW both do this. LN is great, but I don't see how that's your fault and I'm surprised they didn't immediately tell you to send it to them. Yes, our expectations of them and their competitors are high, but that is the reputation they have created and that's what we pay for. Perhaps they didn't realize how bad the rust was when you explained it over the phone. Just send them the plane, they'll no doubt take care of you.

Regarding new vs. remachining.... Beats me.

[george wilson]

They should not,and would not have sent the plane if it had ANY rust when they sent it. It looks like the packaging did cause that rust. I'm wondering if they got some defective "protective paper",or defective cardboard boxes that emit a lot of acid. You know,paper is manufactured with acid to digest the wood pulp. It is possible that they got some extra acidic paper or cardboard.

Thats not the way a plane rusts from sitting on a shelf. I'm sure it was the wrapping paper. My planes all came wrapped in the brown paper,but none of mine got rusty like that. I must have purchased about 10 LN planes between those I bought for work,and those I bought at home,and a gift LN. None were rusty,but these planes were bought years ago. Maybe they'd better start greasing them like Wood River does. Messy(nothing worse than Chinese cosmoline!!!!!),but a safeguard.

[Jim Barrett]

Strange looking rust pattern...even stranger is waiting 4 months to open the box! Do you think LN would send a plane looking like that to a customer? Must be the paper though I have planes wrapped in that paper and have no problems.

[Dave Lehnert]

Just send it back. I'm sure they will replace it. That rust is odd.
When I was working in retail selling lawn equipment I never ever said over the phone I would replace something. I wanted to see it first.

[Jim Matthews]

All my metal body planes are going this way, in my damp basement.

I'm migrating to wood body planes, and keeping all my blades oiled.
I've still got rust.

[Mike Kelsey]

here's what the protective wrapping paper sez:

"UNIWRAP MPI, treated with volatile corrosion in hibitors (VCI), face opposite side to metal, do not unwrap until ready to use....... [made by] Daubert Cromwell". Maybe it is a new paper they are trying out? Yeah I sort of thought they'd take the "Lee Valley approach" & send one ASAP - (next day air:D). I'll send them the pictures, perhaps this is a new anomaly for LN.

I guess I'd better un-crate the Grizzly band-saw, I've had since spring, before the neader bug got me. Wait did I just hear a tree fall across the road? Living in the woods leads one in many directions.... unexpectedly......

[Mike Kelsey]

Here's a better pix of the "pitting". 217512

[george wilson]

That rust pattern is definitely from being in contact with something like tightly wrapped paper. It will creep along in angular looking patterns. It doesn't do that from being in air. It turns a more even brown color,as we have all seen.

[Steve Friedman]

My metal body planes were all rusting till I learned about Goldenrod Dehumidifiers. Best $20 I ever spent (shop around) and takes minutes to install.

Steve

[Bart Nadeau]

+ for Goldenrod dehumdifiers

Bart

[Mike Kelsey]

My metal body planes were all rusting till I learned about Goldenrod Dehumidifiers. Best $20 I ever spent (shop around) and takes minutes to install.

Steve

Where this was stored was in a cabinet with other planes, some in boxes , other not. A few didn't even have jojoba oil on them. This is the only one with this problem.

[Sean Richards]

I had to return a LN shoulder plane that arrived rusty. Looked like the package had got damp in transit and the plane was pretty rusty by the time it arrived. Plastic shrink wrapping and a bit of protective grease would have made this a non-issue - was surprised they don't do that.

[Rob Damon]

You didn't say where you bought it from? Direct from L-N or from store?

I have bought a dozen L-N's from local Woodcraft. They came in light colored paper wrap and then sealed in a blue plastic bag. A few had been sitting in the L-N case at WC for over two years and none showed any rust or pitting.

[Jim Koepke]

You will likely be sending this one back. Just make sure you and they are on the same page.

Many companies want items to have an RMA number on the outside of the package.

jtk

P.S. Under no circumstances, unless totally beyond my control, would I ever wait four months before opening a package from a vendor.

[Mike Kelsey]

I bought directly from LN. As I said, I have no doubt LN, will make it right, I'm just really puzzled how a new plane could become so pitted in such a short time. Would paper actually cause this? Like others, I've had rust begin to develop on my tablesaw and drill press tables, but heck, Simple Green or if needed, a little steel wool took it right off with no determent to the surfaces. And I've had those machines for lot longer than the jointer That's why I'm pondering the metallurgy aspect. Anyway, thanks for the replies and support.

[Jim Koepke]

When we moved from California to Washington a lot of my tools were packed in newspaper.

No problem for most of them. One of my Stanley 45s succumbed to a light rusting. Paper does tend to absorb moisture from the air.

Some of the other posts make me wonder if LN may wrap items differently for vendors who might have them on the shelf in a box for awhile.

Then again, there are likely some collectors out there who have bought a plane and set it on a shelf without opening it for as long as they have owned it.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

It surprises me to hear that most anything steel from LN isn't in the blue bad. I've kinda taken a liking to cocobolo handles on my LN planes and, for those I've had to order direct from LN (when Craftsman Studio was out), there's been a 4-6 week lead time for the custom order. In each case, even knowing it was coming directly to the end customer (me), they were wrapped in anti-corrosion emitting paper and sealed in plastic bags.

No doubt LN will take care of them for you.

Jim

[Dan Hintz]

The rust pattern is highly suggestive of either a chemical etchant or a poor alloy of steel...

[Edward Clarke]

If you still have the paper, stick it in a plastic bag and send it back with the plane. Get an RMA first.
Be sure to label the plastic bag so they'll know why you sent it back.

[John Coloccia]

The corrosion inhibitors don't last forever. I believe they're usually good for a couple of years. After that I would imagine it's not much different than being wrapped in regular kraft paper.

I'm pretty sure if ask for it to be replaced, they'll replace it. LN's customer service is out of this world good, but when you charge top dollar for your products you'd better be good or you're not going to last very long.

[Brad Patch]

Mike,

Be sure to let us know the final outcome. I'll bet you will be pleased.

[David Weaver]

I would let them re-machine it. If they offer to replace it when they see it, that'll be good. Otherwise, you'll probably just end up with a remachined plane that's gotten more machining attention than a regular plane.

One thing you'll find going forward is that no matter what the tool or manufacturer or environment, virgin cast iron rusts incredibly easily, and you have to keep your eyes on it on a regular basis unless you're really in a very dry environment. It just stinks to learn the lesson on a plane after literally following the directions on the wrapper.

A friend of mine, btw, also stowed his 5 1/2 in the anti-rust paper only to find out that it may inhibit rust better than untreated paper, but it doesn't do so entirely.


The only way to generally keep rust off of tools without lots of effort, and have them ready to use, is to only have tools that you use on a regular basis.

[Niels Cosman]

P.S. Under no circumstances, unless totally beyond my control, would I ever wait four months before opening a package from a vendor.

...exactly
Sorry to hear about your trouble.

[Bob Jones]

As dumb as it sounds, metal needs to breathe. I left a plastic cutting board sitting on my cast iron table saw for a few days and if left a big rust spot. It does not take long.

[Dale Cruea]

I purchased a LN #5 this summer from Highland.
No rust when it arrived however it did rust quickly after. I did notice that the metal seemed dry.
When I oiled it, it soaked up quite a bit of oil the first time.
No new rust since then.

I would send the plane back and insist for a new one. You did not spend new priced money for a refurbished plane. re-machining for me is out of the question.
If they insist on re-machining then the price should be reduced, greatly.

LN sells a nice plane, however so does LV. If LN is not going to stand behind their products then we should quit buying them.

[Shlomo Hoffmann]

I feel your pain... I had a similar case on my LN-62, although not as severe. But I also had exactly the same on my Lee Valley Medium Shoulder Plane and my Gramercy Dovetail saw...

I did not call the vendors, though... I realized it was my own negligence that caused these to rust. I keep my tools in the original boxes and wraps (my weakness, I know...), stored in my basement workshop which happens to be humid in the summer. Humidity creeps everywhere, paper wraps and boxes, and will condense on colder surfaces...

I learned my lesson... I do not trust any of the "magic" wraps or socks as fool-proof, especially after long storage periods with little use. I force myself to do periodic inventory checks, buff off rusty spots, if I find any, and re-oil the tools...

[Mike Kelsey]

Shlomo,

Although I respect your opinion and personal approach, I don't see this as blatant negligence. The point is what is a reasonable time a tool could remain in it's original packaging, not under adverse weather storage/conditions and expect it to be as new when unwrapped? The consensus here is that the pitting for the length of time is, considering how it was stored is unusual to say the least,that's why I suspect the alloy properties. I've read "The Perfect Edge" by Ron Hock (excellent book BTW) & I don't remember anything regarding rust or as I would call it "etched pitting" occurring in such a short time.

There is negligence which is just plain stupid & that which which is bore out of ignorance (lack of experience). Lee Valley , for one, bends over backward to insure customer satisfaction. I damaged part of a product because I misunderstood the instructional set up. I called them to ask for a replacement part, expecting to pay of course. What they did instead was tell me, their sending me the complete product again, exchange parts or the whole thing & send back what I don't use with their pre payed return label! I was flabbergasted to say the least. They didn't ask for a deposit, nor my address - "we have it already". The point is good companies, especially the smaller ones of high quality WANT to know if there is a problem with a product. Outstanding customer service is what builds loyalty. Without feedback from the customer maintaining a standard of high quality becomes more challenging.




I feel your pain... I had a similar case on my LN-62, although not as severe. But I also had exactly the same on my Lee Valley Medium Shoulder Plane and my Gramercy Dovetail saw...

I did not call the vendors, though... I realized it was my own negligence that caused these to rust. I keep my tools in the original boxes and wraps (my weakness, I know...), stored in my basement workshop which happens to be humid in the summer. Humidity creeps everywhere, paper wraps and boxes, and will condense on colder surfaces...

I learned my lesson... I do not trust any of the "magic" wraps or socks as fool-proof, especially after long storage periods with little use. I force myself to do periodic inventory checks, buff off rusty spots, if I find any, and re-oil the tools...

[Mike Kelsey]

Update from Lie-Nielsen,

Just received a call from Kristen. She said they saw the pictures, didn't realize it was worse than they thought. I will be receiving a new jointer by end of next week with a pre-paid return label.

As to the cause, LN didn't know for sure, said when the paper dried out it could have contributed to the "result" [my term]. They had not experienced such a occurrence before. When they examine my jointer, she said they'd call me & let me know what LN thinks happened. I'll pass on the answer here.

On the subject of customer service: Kristen said absolutely they want to know about any issue with any of their products

[Shlomo Hoffmann]

Good for you Mike... Lie-Nielsen customer service is impeccable and they stand behind their products 100% and I had no doubt they'd contact you...(my personal experience applies here too)... :)

[Chris Griggs]

Glad to know they check in here. I guess I assumed as much, even though they have made the decision not to directly participate in these discussions as Rob and Joel do. It's pretty cool that they called you as a result of this thread. Would have been pretty surprised if they hadn't replaced it. A couple weeks ago I posted a thread about a bronze infill shoulder plane I was having issues with - I got a good deal from a former vendor because it was old stock that they were clearing out (5 years old I came to find out when I got it). Well the wedge had moved, shrunk, & twisted in storage. I sent LN the plane and they promptly replaced the wedge and sent it back to me, no questions asked. I like that Rob and Joel post here, as it makes me feel even more secure about purchasing their products, but I understand why a company would make the decision not to. I also have purchased fewer products from LN than LV so I am less familiar with their service (though I am aware of their strong reputation). Anyway Mike, thanks for the update. Between my recent experience and your current one I'm convinced that they are actively maintaining the same customer service standards as there competitors. We are so lucky to be able to patronize such great companies.

[lowell holmes]

The outcome is what I expected to happen.

I have many LN and LV products. They all are exceptional quality as is TFWW.

[george wilson]

Did any of you notice what I said about acid being used to make paper? I'll venture that if the aper is too acidic being on a plastic bag will serve to contain any acid fumes present in the paper. I would not wrap a plane in paper,just use the plastic bag. Then,of course,acids are also used in making many plastics. A gunsmith friend of mine kept having trouble with a revolver in a box rusting. He'd take it out,clean and re oil it,and put it away. The gun would be rusty again months later. When he took off the gun's plastic grips,the rusting stopped at once.

Celluloid is one of the worst plastics to completely break down,releasing nitric acid fumes,and rusting any metal on the guitar. I've had that problem with more than a few instruments. Really screws them up,too.

[John Coloccia]

Celluloid is one of the worst plastics to completely break down,releasing nitric acid fumes,and rusting any metal on the guitar. I've had that problem with more than a few instruments. Really screws them up,too.

I think Dan Erlewine refers to that as "rotting plastic". It gets all soft and gooey, and it corrodes everything in the case. I just replaced a pick guard for a gentleman on an old 12 string Martin, and pretty much everything that was metal needed to be polished and buffed to get rid of the corrosion. What a mess.

I think the rust preventative paper is made with a low/no acid kraft paper that's been impregnated with their corrosion stuff, but even so when the corrosion stuff has gone bye bye, even if the paper is completely acid free you just know it's going to be a moisture sponge.

I had the same exact thing happen with foam "rust preventative" tool box liners. When I moved back from California, my tools stayed in storage for 6 months. Everywhere the liner touched a tool was rusted, in a crosshatch pattern. The stuff wears out and just collects moisture, making the problem worse. Lesson learned.

[tico vogt]

Steve, which model Goldenrod have you used?

[george wilson]

I certainly agree to not leaving boxes unopened for 4 months. Not the best plan. If the plane had been damaged in shipment or something,might be a bit hard to expect the dealer to take it back.

[Larry Frank]

The corrosion will only happen if there is sufficient moisture present and based upon the pictures this took a significant amount of time. Given that you did not open it for 4 months, it is hard to know if you got the plane like that or it happened before you opened it. The protective paper has a certain life and is not good for long term protection as the vapor will eventually leave and expose the metal to moisture.

I agree with the other poster who said that they would not wait four months before opening a package. If there is a problem, one should report it immediately and get it resolved. A company who will take a complaint like this and make it right frou months later is really doing a super job of customer service.

[Steve Friedman]

Steve, which model Goldenrod have you used?
First let me say that I learned about Goldenrods from Dominic Greco (thanks Dominic).

I got the "original" because it had the highest watts per inch. It's gold colored and is the only one that emits one watt per inch. The smallest one is 12" long and is supposed to be good for 100 cubic feet, but I didn't really trust that, so I bought 4 because there is a $20 discount if you spend $100 and the shipping for 4 cost only $1 more than the shipping for one.

I put 2 of the rods into a 15 cubic foot steel 10-drawer parts cabinet that I repurposed as a tool cabinet. I also reorganized mu stuff to only use that cabinet for tools that might rust. Two rods was almost certainly an overkill and may make no sense, but my rationale was that all the drawers might prevent the heat from getting to the stuff at the top.

Since my largest planes wouldn't fit in a drawer, I quickly put together a cabinet (actually more like a box with a door) for all of my planes and put a rod into it as well. I just needed to get something assembled quickly to stop the rust.

Not sure what I'll do with the 4th. My short term plan is to build another cabinet to hold overflow planes (it's getting crowded in there), hand drills, braces, and other bulky items. I am not sure if this will work, but I am planning to get some Sigma Ceramic stones from Stu at Tools From Japan, and may try to use a goldenrod to keep them from freezing in the winter.

Just a caution - price varies pretty widely. I bought mine from Midway USA, which is selling the 12" Version for 25.99. If you buy 4, the price drops to 20.99 each. By contrast, Brownells' charges $40.35 each. They are 34.99 at Cabellas'.

Let me know if you need anything else.

Steve

[Mike Kelsey]

I'm confused about the word "complaint". I don't think I was complaining about a darn thing. I thought I was inquiring, a little rust on the surface is one thing, etched in to the metal is another. As a reminder, LN wasn't sure about the cause of such "damage" even after 4 months in the box, from the pictures. Again good companies want the feedback and probably have enough experience to know when some one is trying to take advantage of them.




The corrosion will only happen if there is sufficient moisture present and based upon the pictures this took a significant amount of time. Given that you did not open it for 4 months, it is hard to know if you got the plane like that or it happened before you opened it. The protective paper has a certain life and is not good for long term protection as the vapor will eventually leave and expose the metal to moisture.

I agree with the other poster who said that they would not wait four months before opening a package. If there is a problem, one should report it immediately and get it resolved. A company who will take a complaint like this and make it right frou months later is really doing a super job of customer service.

[Carl Maeda-San Diego]

I have several LN planes and 1 of them did come to my with some rust on it.
The planes I bought all came in a blue plastic bag and they all had oil on them. But the Rabbet Block plane I bought did not have oil on them but did come in a blue plastic bag.
I sent an email to LN and they told me to buff it out since the rust was light.

[John A. Callaway]

Gonna have to order one of the goldenrod dehumidifiers.... The Georgia humidity is giving me a damn fit.... Even with the zerrust capsules from highland... I am still having to sand rust on of my planes weekly.... some weeks, on account of work, I have no time to do any actual woodworking, but I have to go out there and coat the tools in camelia oil ..... after wiping them off and sanding off the surface rust from where hand prints were and along the soles of them..... VERY FRUSTRATING !!!!!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've had better luck with SC Johnson paste wax over any sort of oil for tools in potential rust situations. If I get a fair amount of sweat or hand oil on my tools, sometimes I wipe them down with a little alcohol before putting oil or wax on them to make sure that I don't leave handprints on them.

[george wilson]

I,for one,did not say that you were trying to take advantage of LN. I only said that leaving unopened boxes for 4 months is not a good idea on several levels,which cannot be denied. For instance,if there was shipping damage,it needs to be reported at once. The mysterious corrosion could have been the result of different factors that have been mentioned. My thoughts are that the paper,or the box, just might have have had traces of acid,and it would have been well to not leave the cast iron in them for a long period.

In Alaska,we had a paper pulp mill way out of town. The forest around the mill for miles all around was surrounded by yellow,naked dead trees. Not a pine needle on them,and VERY yellow. This was from the acid used to digest the wood fibers into paper pulp. Some of that acid was still in the finished paper.

As a long time museum person,I am well aware of the need to use acid free paper,also called archival paper,for mounting prints,or storing objects. Regular paper is not at all recommended,certainly not for storage. It is possible that after the anti rust chemicals evaporated,the acid was still present in the paper.

If you watch "Antiques Road Show",they are always recommending people to get their prints,etc.,re mounted in acid free paper.

P.S.: To the person whose saw was rusted under the plastic cutting board:Metals do not necessarily need to "breathe". Your plastic cutting board probably had trace amounts of acid in it,too. Acids,like nitric acid,are also used in the manufacture of many plastics.

Lastly,I work with metals a lot. I can think of NO "poor alloy" that is given to self starting rust. I can tell you that iron or steel that has been sand blasted will rust like crazy,because it has no trace of oil left on the surface. It is just the nature of iron to rust. It needs to be oiled,waxed,etc.

[Jim Koepke]

Did any of you notice what I said about acid being used to make paper? I'll venture that if the aper is too acidic being on a plastic bag will serve to contain any acid fumes present in the paper. I would not wrap a plane in paper,just use the plastic bag. Then,of course,acids are also used in making many plastics. A gunsmith friend of mine kept having trouble with a revolver in a box rusting. He'd take it out,clean and re oil it,and put it away. The gun would be rusty again months later. When he took off the gun's plastic grips,the rusting stopped at once.

Celluloid is one of the worst plastics to completely break down,releasing nitric acid fumes,and rusting any metal on the guitar. I've had that problem with more than a few instruments. Really screws them up,too.

I used to sell paper and know a little about the untoward effects of paper on metals.

I also was into coin collecting and know about the damage vinyl coin envelopes can do to metals.

Some woods can have damaging effects on metals if kept in contact. Ever try to pull nails out of oak that have been in place for a few years?

Mike,

Glad to see the LN has seen the pictures and is taking care of you. The initial response was most likely because the person on the phone didn't realize the extent of rust damage.

jtk

[John A. Callaway]

Golden rod dehumidifier ordered today. Look for a review in a few weeks....

[Robert Joseph]

Good to hear they made things right.

[Jim Newman]

I find Boeshield T-9 works great on the iron in my shop, including LN planes and irons.