Polishing stone question..

[Rick Fisher]

I have the following stones..

1000 Grit Sigma Power (Blue)
4000 Grit Norton
8000 Grit Norton

I also have a worksharp which I have used to change bevel angles etc.. then use the stones to sharpen.

Wife wants to get me an anniversary gift.. I would like a really decent polishing stone.. Something to use after the 8000 grit Norton.

I really like the Sigma stone.. its my favorite.
I am not in love with the Nortons.. find them dirty and mucky .. the 8000 glazes over .. When they are done, I planned on replacing them with Sigma stones.

Here is what I am considering " suggesting " ..

Sigma makes a 13000 Grit stone which is supposed to be very good, I cant actually find it for sale.. Its not the Select II stone, its got a Japanese name.
Also looking at;
Chosera 10,000 grit stone
Shapton 30,000 grit stone


I kinda understand that the Shapton 30,000 grit is not 3 x finer than the Chosera or most other fine polish stones in the 10,000 - 15,000 range.

I want a stone that will noticeably improve on the finish left by the Norton 8000. I would prefer it was at least 70mm wide for plane blades as well as chisels.


Edit .. I found the name of the Sigma stone .. They call it a 13000 Sigma power Tamago-iro Ceramic.. I read a review on it that compared it to the Shapton 30K for polishing ..

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Rick,

Surprised you couldn't find the Sigma Power. ;)


Also know that Sigma Power have, in their wisdom, tagged the 13K with the Select II label. A purple one to be exact. Same stone, new label and I think it's so they can get things out there based on the reputation of the Select II and the kind of 'corporate face' they show. I won't call them a Select II though.

I don't know why exactly (but I did say it was ok). I do know that the dang things are in a purple box (and cost less than half the Chosera 10K or Shapton 30K) and a speckly yellow colour (which is what tamago-iro means, egg colour).

Stu.

[Mike Holbrook]

I love the Sigma Select II stones too. I have the 10,000 and find it to be as fine as I need & then some. The extra very fine stones get quite expensive and I am not convinced they are necessary. You could get the 10,000 and a lower grit stone like Stu's 700 or 120 and I think you would have a better stone selection. You could also get the Select II 6,000 which is one of the best stones they make. I got the 120 & 700 for when I have more serious work to do. The 700 is a very thick heavy stone, very good for doing most of your initial sharpening of dull blades. The 120 & 700 are not actually Select II stones but they cut like the Select IIs. I have 3,000-6,000-10,000 in Select II and love them. I had a Shapton 2,000 and so at first I tried using it with a 6,000 & 10,000 Select II. I liked the Select IIs so much I ordered a 3,000 and the 120 & 700 which another poster here & Stu suggested as the best fast cutters. My Shapton 8,000 Pro took a short fall in its case & shattered, want buy another Shapton because for me they are too fragile & not as good as the Sigmas.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Rick,

Strap yourself on and get ready for a heck of a rollercoaster ride.

My Sigma stone line up is like this:

Reshaping bevels/backs:
Ceramic - #120 (oversized) - Select II #240 - Ceramic #400 - Ceramic 3F Carbon #700

Sharpening/Honing:
Ceramic - 1K, 6K, 8K, 13K
Select II - 1K, 3K, 6K (I always finish on the 8K/13K)

The Ceramic (Hard) will handle the O-1/A-2 steels without a hitch. They have a binder which makes them dish resistant, that is, you can do more blades/chisels on them before you have to flatten them. The Select II are more geared for HSS and other tougher metals and have no binder, they are pure abrasive. But, they make mincemeat out of O-1/A-2 steel. You can do enough O-1/A-2 blades before it dishes because they are geared for the tougher steels.

The 13K is a great stone at 1/2 the price of the Chosera and Shapton. Stu has a great deal on a ceramic 1K-6K-13K set for $300 which is what you would pay for the Chosera 10K or the Shapton 30K. Your "blue" 1K is the Select II just like mine.

You can always flatten the backs/reshape bevels of chisels/blades on Norton 3X 80-120g paper on a slab of granite, I do/have, then go to your 1K. But I would recomend the #400 or #700 as an intermediate step before you do that. Makes the 1K work easier and faster.

I also like using my Viel 1" x 42" belt grinder and Jet Wet grinder to reshape bevels. I've been going away from using the 8" Slo-speed grinder more and more.

HTH

[Steve Friedman]

Sigma makes a 13000 Grit stone which is supposed to be very good, I cant actually find it for sale.. Its not the Select II stone, its got a Japanese name.
Stu was being a gentleman. He is the only one who sells the Sigma Power Ceramic Stones. Check out his website - Tools from Japan - and read his blog. Also, read his posts here and on the other woodworking sites. Just a caution - when you go to Stu's website, the default currency is Yen. Make sure you change it to dollars!

Also, read Orlando's comments closely. He's one of the most knowledgable people out there on Japanese water stones!

Steve

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Thanks for the kind words Steve.

I'm just a normal guy who's used a number of different brands and found one that I like better than the others. So my knowledge is solely based on that fact. I've learned a ton from David Weaver, especially about Japanese natural stones, and Stu Tierney who I consider the true experts when it comes to Japanese waterstones.

[Archie England]

This might complicate matters a bit . . . BUT the Norton grit numbering system is different from the New Japanese grit numbering system, meaning that the stated grits are higher than the actual yield. The 4000 is closer to a 2000-3000 newer stone; the 8000, a 5000 stone. BTW, my explanation is a simplification but close enough. What this means to you is that a newer 6000 stone would actually be appropriate as the next step or an 8000 or a 10000. Having used the Norton 8000 (and I liked both the 4000 and 8000 Norton), I don't think it would have made the jump to my Sigma 13000. The Sigma 6000 does this quite well, however.

So, what to do?

First option: buy a Sigma power 6000 (see Tools from Japan, the ceramic not select II series) and prepare to be amazed. This stone cuts, hones, and produces a highly polished mirror image on backs and bevels. I stop the sharpening process here unless I'm working endgrain. However, I do strop with PLAIN leather after the Sig 6k (since I have the Sigma 13000 (0.5 mic) I have no need to use green compound).

Second option: buy an 8k or 10k stone, such as a Naniwa, Imanishi, or Kitayama. These will polish well. In this group, the Super stones are approximately equivalent to the Nortons but at the upper grit levels (8,10,12) render superb finishes. And, they're not too pricey. Though I'd love to buy the Chosera 10k for curiosity of use (and I'm convinced it's a great stone), my Sigma 13000 kicks its butt at over half the price less. Some suggest that the Sigma 10k actually equals the Cho10, as well. However, this is an option, albeit a tad pricey ($265 at CK2G or TFWW).

Beware, however! I've discovered that even the better stones have characteristics that make their use lovable or deplorable. For instance, how messy, or prone to dishing, or wearing down quickly, or how soft or firm the stone is, or what kind of scratchy vs. smooth feel (mostly noted by sound) occurs in the process, or how little or much mud (plus swarf) a stone makes. More mud is a good thing, unless it means a huge mess with a fast dishing and worn down stone face. Also, the bite (feel) of the stone dictates whether the stone is more or less likely to dub (round over) an edge when using push strokes. BTW, firmer stones provide way better feedback on how well you've mated the bevel to the stone. This is critical as you move up through and to the higher grit stones. Well, enough there for you to get the picture....

As for me, having been exactly where you are--I bought the Sigma power ceramic stones from Stu Tiernery at Tools from Japan (since he is only source as of yet) and gave my Nortons to a friend who had nothing. The NORTONS are not bad stones (well, the 220 is), the better waterstones (like Sigma and Chosera and Gesshin) are just so much better. The Besters, Imanishis, Super Stones, Arashiyamas, etc., are better, too, just not as good as the top tier. You do get what you pay for! So buy right; buy once. But check out the great value of the Sigma power ceramics--even after shipping you'll be hard pressed to equal their price or their value!

[Archie England]

+1 on everything Orlando says!

[David Weaver]

There is no magic bullet. Of all of the stones mentioned, I would avoid the 30k GS first, but it is a good stone. It's just not something I would get for woodworking because wear on an iron will bring a 30k edge below where you start with any of the stones you've mentioned pretty quickly. It is the finest of the ones you've mentioned, you need only to talk to razor honing fanatics to find that out - that's really the only thing you'll sharpen with all of these stones where you'll be able to tell the difference between any of them.

I like the shapton 15k pro (it is my old favorite, I guess, and lovely for someone who is willing to learn the touch with it), the sigma 13k and the chosera probably all about the same, maybe the chosera the most when the three are compared with a clean surface. When they are clean, all three cut fast and fine, the shapton and chosera a bit faster on a chisel bevel (we know the stated micron size of the abrasive in the shapton 15k is 0.98, and the sp 13k is something like 0.73). The chosera if I had to guess is probably a tiny bit coarser than the sp 13k, too, but you can split a hair (i mean in a literal sense) with any of them on a 25 degree bevel with carbon steel. If the sigma 13k is a bit finer and not quite as fast, a freehand sharpener can just keep the bevel worked a little thinner.

I'd decide which retailer you like to patronize and go from there. I think maybe you can take the 15k pro shapton out of the mix because of the way shapton has chosen to price stones in the US (they are not premium priced in japan, except for the 30k, it is my opinion that they are reaching on the price of the stones in the US and I have bought all but one of my shaptons through alternative routes, including the US only 15k - which I got NOS from someone for $85).

I might be inclined, were I in your position, to buy the set from stu and sell the norton set, instead of buying a chosera - and I really hate to say something like that (that being replacing an entire set of perfectly good stones), but it's probably what I'd do. You'd be out probably no more net than what it would cost to get the sp 13k, and you'll have a bit better lower stones to work with and a lovely 400 atoma to dress/flatten the stones. It is a very attractive package in terms of comparison to all of the premium stones.

I like the chosera, but I found another one of those at one point for $200 that someone had gotten as a gift and never used. Everyone has their own personal feeling about prices, but I wouldn't pay close to $300 for it. At $200, i'm iffy based on what i've been able to find elsewhere (a shapton 15k at $85 is a wonderful thing, at $140 retail - nothing special).

I guess it could be noticeable that i go whatever way the wind blows on these stone threads (despite the fact that I've tried them all), and that's because we're not talking about practical needed sharpness for woodworking, we're talking about self entertainment. The discussion would be entirely different if economy were an issue, and it would be different if absolute sharpness (which is pointless with woodworking) was an issue.

[Chris Griggs]

I might be inclined, were I in your position, to buy the set from stu and sell the norton set, instead of buying a chosera - and I really hate to say something like that, but it's probably what I'd do. You'd be out probably no more net than what it would cost to get the sp 13k, and you'll have a bit better lower stones to work with and a lovely 400 atoma to dress/flatten the stones. It is a very attractive package in terms of comparison to all of the premium stones.


A strong +1 to that....

[Mike Holbrook]

If I had known Orlando would jump in I would have just been quiet. He gives me a sever case of stone envy and I am pretty well equipped.

[Jim Koepke]

sell the norton set

At one time this was my plan.

Then came a lot of different blades in different shapes.

Now I wouldn't sell a sharpening stone unless I sold all the blades first.

It is nice to have odd stones to work on odd blades.

jtk

[George Beck]

I have just about every stone out there, always looking for the magic bullet. I have it down to 3 stones now The shapton 1000, 5000 and 15,000. I find Shaptons are the hardest of the stones and wear very well. I have a 30,000 Shapton but don't find it all that useful except on very fine blades. The Shapton 15,000 is one of my favorite stones. The naniwa Chosera are my second favorite. There are easier to flatten and use for free hand sharpening. I use a 1000, 5000, 10,000. Two stones that I think are overlooked are the Naniwa Chosera 400, which is a great corse stone but doesn't leave deep marks and cuts very fast. I also like the Takenoko gold stone for polishing. This stone is listed between 6,000 and 8,000 but leaves a great polish and a very keen edge. It is soft and sometimes I use it after the Chosea 10,000 or Shapton 15,000 just to remove scratches and leave a soft polished edge.

[Roy Lindberry]

If you're looking for polish, why not a leather strop and some compound? It is way cheaper, it's fast, and it leaves a great polish, though I don't know how the polish compares to the stones you are looking for.

[Jack Curtis]

If you're looking for polish, why not a leather strop and some compound? It is way cheaper, it's fast, and it leaves a great polish, though I don't know how the polish compares to the stones you are looking for.

Probably because the current word is that leather stropping leads to dubbing. Not so in your case, I'd guess.

Jack

[Roy Lindberry]

Probably because the current word is that leather stropping leads to dubbing. Not so in your case, I'd guess.

Jack

Interestingly enough, when I strop (which I don't do often - I normally just finish with my 8000), I do it in on leather without any compound...only because I haven't made the effort to get any. And I still get a great edge. But I'm not an expert, and perhaps a stone would be head and shoulders above.

[Archie England]

Interestingly enough, when I strop (which I don't do often - I normally just finish with my 8000), I do it in on leather without any compound...only because I haven't made the effort to get any. And I still get a great edge. But I'm not an expert, and perhaps a stone would be head and shoulders above.

I strop coming off my Sigma Power 6000--and with simply leather w/o compound. That edge is mirror polished and ready to slice whatever. When doing endgrain, I pull out the Sigma 13000 but never strop afterward. Wibur Pan did a great post a while back on 0.5 micron equivalents, showing that once you've arrived truly at that level, it doesn't matter how!

[James Owen]

Take a look at the Spyderco 1800 and 2000 grit ceramic stones (they are roughly the equivalents of about 8000 and 10000 grit, respectively, in Japanese waterstones). The 2000 grit stone leaves a mirror polish and gets everything from plane irons to carving chisels as sharp as you're likely to ever need for woodworking.... They are and stay very flat, and cost less than US $75,-- each.

[Ron Kellison]

My current set is made up of the Sigma Select II in 1000, 3000 and 10,000 grits and a 325 grit 10" DMT plate. I also have a DMT 600/1200 monocrystalline diamond stone and Norton in 4000 and 8000 grits, all of which I will soon be listing on EBay. The Sigma's are just that good!

I have noticed one interesting difference. Until I found the Sigma stones I had lapped the face of my chisels and plane blades up through the 8000 grit Norton and then a final polish with .5 micron green paper on a granite plate for a mirror finish. I would get very close to the mirror finish off the 8000 grit Norton. I recently decided to polish 3 LV block plane blades which were already flat. I was surprised to discover that the 10000 Sigma Select would only yield a matt finish with a bit of luster. The blades still honed up incredibly sharp...just not with that familiar shiny face!

Regards,

Ron

[Rick Fisher]

Okay.. I am embarrassed ..

I actually went to Stu's site looking for the 13,000 stone and did not see it .. I recall it ended at 10,000.. Sigh.. So I went back again and looked a bit harder.. the 13,000 is in the middle of the page. I am happy now.

I actually planned on adding a 400 or 700 Sigma so I had something lower than 1000.. Using the worksharp for the rough work is less and less desirable as my confidence with stones improves.

I would also like a jig of sorts to sharpen the kitchen knives..

I will send Stu an email..

Thanks for the replies fellas..

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Ron,

I noticed the same thing when I used my Select IIs since the Hard left a shinny finish. I asked Stu about this and he responded:

"The Select II are more friable, as in they release more grit. More grit rolling around, more matte. Because the stone is still quite hard, it'll roll not bite and give the matte finish. Because the grit is hard, not soft, it'll stay "on size" for longer and not degrade into a polish." I also found this to be true of my Gesshin #400.

[Stuart Tierney]

Ron,

I noticed the same thing when I used my Select IIs since the Hard left a shinny finish. I asked Stu about this and he responded:

"The Select II are more friable, as in they release more grit. More grit rolling around, more matte. Because the stone is still quite hard, it'll roll not bite and give the matte finish. Because the grit is hard, not soft, it'll stay "on size" for longer and not degrade into a polish." I also found this to be true of my Gesshin #400.


Yep.

'Polished' doesn't automatically mean 'sharp'. ;)

Stu.

(Who never bothers with a polish, I'm only aiming to get that edge sharp. Couldn't care less what the rest of the contraption looks like...)

[Ron Kellison]

Yep.

'Polished' doesn't automatically mean 'sharp'. ;)

Stu.

(Who never bothers with a polish, I'm only aiming to get that edge sharp. Couldn't care less what the rest of the contraption looks like...)

Agreed!! I know that the back of almost every Veritas blade is dead flat so it didn't bother me that I didn't get the usual degree of polish that I got from the Norton stones. "Sharp" is the intersection of two flat planes at a predetermined angle...the key word being FLAT.

Today I sharpened a 1 3/4" HSS plane iron from a Muji plane and still can't get over how the Sigma II stones cut through the steel without any fuss! Stu, I hope you sell thousands of them! We need a good baseline reference out there for the average woodworker who really wants to do a good job of sharpening without needing a degree in metallurgy and a supply of mystic incantations.

Regards,

Ron

[Matthew Hills]

Yep.

'Polished' doesn't automatically mean 'sharp'. ;)


Why not?

If the coarser grit is breaking down to a finer grit that results in a polish, how is this different from sharpening on a finer stone?
It would seem that as long as you are polishing to the edge, it would be equivalent (?)

Matt

[David Weaver]

Polishing to the edge on both sides will be sharp.

If it looks polished to the edge and isn't sharp, then it's not actually polished to the edge and some magnification will show that. either that or there is some trash left on the edge (wire edge or bits of a wire edge).

But you can have a matte finish and still have good sharpness. From what I can tell, if you have abrasive slurry rolling around, you'll get a matte finish unless the abrasive is exceedingly fine (figure you won't run into that kind of fineness on any stone), and if you have a hard stone with abrasive that doesn't move that much, you'll get straight lines, which when small enough will appear as a polish.

If the discussion turns to absolute ultimate sharpness (which is pointless for woodworking when you get paste pretty much any type of finishing stone), natural stones leaving a bright clean polish will leave the sharpest and smoothest edges (i.e., the sharpness is true sharpness, and not the result of "tooth" or wire edge type material). These are the types of edges that most shavers prefer on straights.

I don't think I ever had a good grasp on that until I started shaving, because you can feel the difference not just in whether or not an edge will shave (it doesn't take that great of an edge to shave), but whether or not it will do it both with ease and comfort.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I would also like a jig of sorts to sharpen the kitchen knives..

I feel like I need to find someone in my area and sit with them and sharpen on stones to get me in the right direction. I get an OK edge from my Tormek, and I certainly get something usable, but, I am of the opinion that I need help.

That said. I was not happy with the results when I used the knife jig in the Tormek. I was happy, however, with my results in general going free hand on water stones. I went back and forth with Rick Markham here on SMC, so I can thank him for holding my hand electronically to the point that I cut tomatoes with knives without looking for a serrated edge.

My only point in all this is that you can likely sharpen your knives without a jig.

[David Weaver]

My only point in all this is that you can likely sharpen your knives without a jig.

You can. And just like regular tool sharpening, it's important that you figure out how to consistently get the same results freehand. It's not so important that you do it exactly the way someone else does, or that you do it with the exact same stones they do.

If you keep up with them, you'll likely not go back to a grinder, coarse stone, or some sort of bevel setting device with them unless something happens to damage the knife (or you refuse to keep up with them until they are totally blunt).