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View Full Version : In the market for a CO2 Laser Engraver and looking for reccomendations



Mike Galea
12-27-2011, 11:03 AM
Hi, I have been in the Sports collectables industry for about 8 years now, and I primarily sell framed photomats. I am looking for a laser engraving system for engraving Aluminum nameplates (coated), sports emblems, and for cutting/engraving matboard. i would also like a machine that gives me some flexibility to move into other products in the future. I have looked at several companies (Trotec, Universal, Epilog, Rabbit, hurricane). Just wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to which companies/machines would best suit my needs. Also wondering why there is such a difference in some of the different companies pricing... Epilog and universal machines seem to be more than twice as expensive as the comperable Rabbit and Trotec machines. Any help or reccomendations would be greatly appreciated.

Dan Hintz
12-27-2011, 11:56 AM
First off, Rabbits are Chinese machines (i.e., glass tubes) with U.S. support... very inexpensive (comparatively speaking), but quality control is hit or miss, and software ease of use is low on the scale. Epilog, Universal, etc. are metal tubes, have proper print drivers, are probably twice as fast (rastering) as most Chinese machines, etc. Some of Trotec's machines are twice as fast (rastering) as the Epilog/Universals. Trotec has always been the most expensive of the metal tube brands, but they've dropped in price significantly over the last year or so (see Steve's recent post on bringing one into his shop)... which means you could likely convince Epilog/Universal to give a similar price break (their dealers may still be trying to ride on the old prices for those who don't know about the recent drops).

If you're doing small things like nameplates and such, any of the machines will likely work for you. The Trotec's speed will likely be wasted unless you're doing large plaques and a lot of them. If you're mostly doing text-based stuff, you'll likely save a bundle going with a Chinese machine since you won't likely get lost in their control programs... you won't be dinking with a bunch of parameters all of the time.

Mike Null
12-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Trotec's speed is useful for far more than plaques. Just as important is Trotec reliability. Mine's 6 years old and in daily use without one minute of down time or service.

If you're going to do text based stuff like name tags and labels that speed is very important and a slow Chinese machine will end up costing you in the long run.

Prices are all negotiable.

Peter Odell
12-27-2011, 2:49 PM
I own 2 turnkey lasers and they will do anything that the rest will do. I admit they are not as fast but I am not in it for the speed besides I bought the two machines cheaper than one of the others.

Scott Shepherd
12-27-2011, 3:34 PM
I own 2 turnkey lasers and they will do anything that the rest will do. I admit they are not as fast but I am not in it for the speed besides I bought the two machines cheaper than one of the others.

Just a clarification, they will not do anything the rest will do. They may do all the things YOU need them to do, but they don't do "anything the rest will do".

Peter Odell
12-27-2011, 4:24 PM
for what I want the others to do they will

Keith Outten
12-27-2011, 4:37 PM
Trotec is offering SawMill Creek Members a special discount. Several people purchased Trotec's recently and there are more that have just made contact. I purchased two Speedy 300's :)

Mike, send me a PM and I will provide the contact information.
.

Scott Shepherd
12-27-2011, 5:50 PM
for what I want the others to do they will

That's exactly what I said, they will do what YOU need them to do, but that might not be what others need, so it's not as cut and dry as some make it sound.

I have done many many parts over the years that could not have been done on a lesser machine and meet the customers requirements. But my business is different than your business, so to each their own.

Bruce Dorworth
12-27-2011, 6:14 PM
Scott, now you have my curiosity up. WHAT will your machine do that a Chinese/his won't do??

Bruce

Ross Moshinsky
12-27-2011, 7:21 PM
I'd look at a 30-40W desktop machine from all of the above places. Get price quotes on spare parts, compare their warranties, ect ect ect. Contact people who own the machines and ask their opinions. After that, you have to make a decision.

The big difference between Chinese machines and US Machines are the following.

1. Technology. Chinese tech is old. US tech is more modern.
2. Software. Chinese software is not as streamlined as the US printer drivers.
3. Support/Warranty. The big US companies aren't going anywhere. If anything one will simply buy the other. Who knows where Rabbit or Hurricane or Turnkey will be in 5 years? Who knows what will happen with some Chinese manufacturer in 5 years?

My opinion is it's worth spending more to get a US made desktop machine. Only when you start talking about 60W+ and 24x36 or bigger is when Chinese machines start making a lot of sense.

Scott Shepherd
12-27-2011, 7:33 PM
There are many things, most pertaining to quality and productivity. He said that he didn't care if his machines were slower. We do. There are many differences, like job control software and how you handle jobs, etc. I've owned a Epilog, currently own a Universal, and also a Trotec. We have pushed the limits on quality and accuracy on all 3 machines and will continue to do so. Follow the "Trotec Reporting for Duty" thread for some videos I'll be posting soon. Things I can promise you that no Chinese machine will do.

I'm not by any means saying one should not consider or even purchase a Chinese made laser. They might be perfect for you. My objection wasn't with Chinese made machines, my objection was a blanket statement saying that his machines will do anything any other one will, and that's 100% false.

So read that carefully before anyone jumps into a "Chinese vs. Name Brand" war, which is NOT what I was saying.

We do very tight tolerance work on our lasers. Very small detailed, slip fits that have to be perfect every time. We have struggled with them for years now. On our Universal, if you have 1 box checked, it will actually change the holes and you will get 3 perfect and 1 loose, too loose. Through much trial, error, and dialogue with the software engineers at Universal, we were able to figure out how to stop that from happening. Also, if the table is out of focus by .010", it changes the sizes of the holes, again, making them too tight or too loose, and scrap. That's the type of work we do daily, so our work is very different than someone that just wants to engrave trophy plates.

I've said it probably 100 times on this forum now- I'll never own another laser that doesn't have job control software. The things you can do with that raise productivity far greater than you might imagine.

It's all good to compare these machines, but we're at the infancy of Chinese lasers in the market place. Right now, all the data we have is to compare price. Price isn't the only thing to compare. Lifespan, maintenance, down time, etc. are all other items that must be considers, and most of that data is not available yet.

Rodne Gold
12-27-2011, 10:37 PM
The issue for many is that they cannot afford mainstream , so buying a cheaper and MAYBE less capable (I havent found my chinese lasers in any way inferior to my mainstreams ) machine might be the only way one can get into the field.
Unless you well established and are production oriented , speed is not an issue and when your machine does become a bottleneck - buy a few more.

Ernie Balch
12-27-2011, 11:18 PM
If you are going to buy a laser the best thing to do is get hands on demos. Make up typical test files that you plan to use then let the dealers provide real world demos. You would not buy a car without a test drive would you? Spend the same effort on the laser system.

Just like cars, the price gives you some indication of performance. You can spend $10k or $100k depending on what you want to do.

bruce edwards
12-28-2011, 3:59 AM
I researched all the lasers before I made the plunge and bought an Epilog Mini 18. I have had more problems with it in the past couple of months than I can believe. I already had to replace the laser tube!! I use the machine for a couple of hours a day usually. No huge orders, no big production runs...I just started using it in April of this year. Tech support has been kinda helpful...but my machine is still down and will be until next week. ( ironically I am going to USA next week for 10 days. So when tech support is back to work I won't be able to try and fix it next week either. whew. )I bought it brand new and it's giving me headaches and a lot of down time. If this were a new car doing the same thing after a few months, it would be recalled or traded in. I'm sure Epilogs are good quality in general....but not mine.

Scott Shepherd
12-28-2011, 8:37 AM
when your machine does become a bottleneck - buy a few more.

I'd rather own 1 fast machine than 2 slow ones. One thing to also consider is the reverse discrimination that goes on with machines as well. It's easy to say "Don't mention anything bad about a Chinese made machine", but on the other hand, people slam the mainstream machines, saying they are overpriced and not worth it, but yet most that speak like that have never actually seen a mainstream machine run, other than perhaps in a demo. I've seen Chinese lasers run many times and I've spent 5 years or so running mainstream lasers. I can assure you there is a stark difference between them. Most of the comparisons I see are someone comparing a 10 year old mainstream machine against a new Chinese machine. If you want to compare apples to apples, then compare a new mainstream machine to a new Chinese machine.

Peter Odell
12-28-2011, 8:54 AM
Like Scott says it all depends on what you are going to do with it. On one of mine I run glass doors 32 inches wide works great I do a lot of wood on mine as well I just did a 1000 pcs order for Nissan on it. The dift is mine is a lot slower then his is but I paid for mine in less then a year Plus paid for a trailer and another machine to go with it. So what you have to think about is where is the trade off. My tube for my 80 watt runs about 600.00. I have had no trouble with either of my machines. There is a learning curve with any machine you buy. you just have to figure out what you want to the price you can pay.

Ross Moshinsky
12-28-2011, 9:14 AM
There are pros and cons with every machine.

Let's say you have an $8,000 budget. You can get a smaller, 30-40W US Machine. It will be faster and more advanced but limited by table size and power or you can buy an 80W bigger table Chinese unit. It will come with mediocre software and be slower. For us, some days we'll want the Chinese machine. Other days the 30-40W machine. If we're stuck doing 1s and 2s of plaques all day, I'm sure the US machine will be better and more efficient at this. If I'm doing 1000 trophy plates, I'm going to want the 80W "big table" machine. I can let the machine run and if I get pulled away, with the small machine I've only managed to produce maybe 100-120 plates vs the 250+ plates on the Chinese machine.

Again, do your research. Contact some users. See some demos. Make a decision. I'd try not to get too carried away with size and power and stick with a 30-40W desktop machine. I don't see any reason why you need to go to some huge machine when all you're talking about is making plates and doing some minor cutting.

Patrice Nesbitt
05-15-2013, 7:44 PM
This is an old thread but I might find it helpful to get some current opinions on what the best CO2 lasers are. I have been using a 30 W LaserPro Mercury and have loved the unit which included a rotary attachment. HOWEVER, this is a 2002 model and has not required much in the way of maintenance, until now. SO, after replacing the Main board, x-motor, bearings and it is not working, we may be looking at replacing it. Going to try another main board tomorrow but who knows. What lasers are people finding to be reliable? We do the usual plastics; laserable metals; acrylics; woods, etc for the awards industry.

Dan Hintz
05-16-2013, 8:12 AM
If you want reliability with little tinkering, you need to look at systems like ULS, Epilog, Trotec, etc.

George M. Perzel
05-16-2013, 10:49 AM
Hi Guys;
I have no intention of fueling the ongoing "war" between the mainstream lasers and the Chinese brands, except to state, IMHO, that the battle will ultimately be won by the Chinese as they continue to adapt mainstream developed features and technologies to their products at much lower costs. While it is true that mainstream lasers may be faster, more accurate, and more trouble-free than the Chinese counterparts, these advantages are no necessarily meaningful or useful for many laser work applications.
That said, I am one of the few on this forum that has experience with both types of machines, but I have in no way the experience that Rodne Gold has. He has been the owner of many mainstream machines and is one of the pioneers in the use of Chinese lasers. More importantly, Rodne is one of the most objective members of this forum and has forgotten more about lasers than many of us know. I echo his statement that he has yet to find anything that the mainstream laser can do that the Chinese laser can't do. Recognize, however, that neither Rodne nor I (nor many others) have the need to engrave 4 point font at high speed or high volumes on the perimeter of a crystal vase-although some on this forum do have that need.
The point that I am trying to make is that the primary decision factor in purchasing a laser should be defining the bulk of the work effort that you expect the machine to perform. Identify the machine that best performs this work load most economically and purchase it. The phrase "most economically" goes way beyond just the purchase price as thruput, efficiency, maintenance, and other factors are part of the equation.
Let's talk economics. Most mainstream machines can engrave efficiently and accurately 50% faster than the Chinese ones with the same quality results. However, I have a dual 80 watt large bed Shenhui laser which, while engraving slower, produces 33% more work in the same time as a mainstream. It has a 44 inch bed and can be converted to one head-large bed operation in about two minutes. Total price including shipping/etc and spare everything (2 tubes) was $9300. The same mainstream machine was over $40K with a much smaller bed. For my business, this machine has been very effective and efficient, paying for itself in less than six months. It may not satisfy your needs or requirements, but should be evaluated as a possibility for any start-up business.
Best Regards,
George
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