Several Comments & Question Regarding Tuning a Record #7

[Jim Foster]

I have a Record #7 bench plane from about 1995. I have not used it much, I have a LN #8 I have been using, but I thought since I had the Record, I should go through it and see how much success I could have setting it up. I got a LV replacement blade for Christmas for it and went out to the shop yesterday to see how far I could get with it. Several notes:

1) The lever cap really feels like a low quality part. The edge that pushes the cap iron down was very out of flat, and the lever and spring mechanism barely works.
2) The Frog was/is incredibly difficult to adjust. They must have a fixture at the factory, or they would have whittled away any profit adjusting it. The lever on the frog used to set the side-to-side play of the blade needed some attention with a file for the slot in the new blade to fit. (The LV blade's slot was slightly narrower than the original.) The frogs face that beds against the blade was also in need of attention, still might need more work. After a huge amount of fiddling, to adjust it, it's still too far back and the gap at the mouth is too large.
3) The LV blade is really nice, (the back is FLAT from the factory) but I'm so used to the thickness of the LN blade on the #8 plane that I can't help wishing the LV should be thicker also.
4) I have not checked the sole for flatness, I'll do that today. If it's out of flat, I'm sure I'll have a bear of a time getting it flat due to its size.

Results: I tried it out on some Q-Sawn White Oak and got mixed results, I could get a thin shaving, I dialed in some shavings at about .010, then .005 and then .002. Compared to the LN #8 it was not much fun to use. The blade got a little needy for a hone pretty quickly, more so than the LN, and I'm not sure if that's due to differences in overall quality of the planes and parts bedding together better, vibrations, etc... or just my lack of experience with it and not checking the sole yet. It was nice to have a plane in my hands a little lighter than the #8, but I'm not quite sure if it will become a regular user though, since I have the #8

Questions:
1) I've tried flattening soles on sandpaper before and it's tedious, I can't imagine a plane the size of the #7 will flatten without many hours of work. I have a hand held belt sander PC 4x24; can I use this without getting in too much trouble if the sole needs attention?
2) The Frog; I've always heard setting the mouth is critical for a good planing result. I searched the forum without much luck. Can anyone elaborate on what they have found regarding setting the frog on a large bench plane like a #7 and the if they noticed any benefits? It seems to be set pretty square right now, but the gap is seems big.
3) I honed the blade at 25 degrees with no micro bevel. For planing hardwoods, would anyone suggest a different bevel angle?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Blades are easy to replace, a good place to start. I also like to replace the chipbreaker - often more so than the blade. But make sure the chipbreaker seats well against the blade, a little filing and maybe bending may help that out.

I don't worry too awful much about the mouth on my jointer plane - I'm usually going to be hitting the show surfaces with a smoother plane afterwards anyway, so I leave the mouth a little more open to help avoid clogging, and allow me to go for a heavier cut if I want to. (I often use my just my jointer and smoother, forgoing the jack, for a lot of work, I don't know why.) If I'm getting more tearout than I can resolve with passes with the smooth afterwards, I use a blade with a backbevel, or get back to resharpening.

I haven't found that you start getting diminished returns on blade thickness after a point - although the thicker LN blades do make freehand sharpening easier.

Obviously, as you mention - check the flatness of the sole before doing work on it. I tried lapping a #7 once. I made it worse. Still works, but I wish I had done better. I think careful filing followed by sanding with a long, true edged block, only stroking in one direction at a time may be better. I think the important thing would be to go slow, and continue measuring to see if things are working well - don't rely on simply a scratch pattern to tell you what you need to know.

As far as setting the frog - I'd worry more about it being square, and seated well to the main body, and the blade being well supported more than anything else. Good idea to take a small straight edge and make sure the blade bedding surface is true.

I like a slightly higher bevel angle on my bevel down plane blades - I usually shoot for around 30. It seems to make my edges last longer. I sometimes start at 25 because I know if I'm freehand sharpening, the angle will slowly get steeper if I'm not careful. The bevel angle isn't going to change the cutting angle on a bevel down plane, so really, anything that clears will work.

With the sole - if it's not terribly out of flat, I'd continue to see how well it performs before I monkeyed with it.

[Jim Koepke]

What Joshua says plus a comment.


I have a hand held belt sander PC 4x24; can I use this without getting in too much trouble if the sole needs attention?

It is possible, but you can mess up a plane's sole in the blink of an eye if you are not real careful. Even if you are careful, stuff happens.

One thing in particular is that one tends to get more metal removed in the middle of the sole than at the ends with a belt sander.

Unless there is a big problem with the sole, my suggestion would be to use the plane for awhile before trying to make it any better.

jtk

[Jim Foster]

Based on this suggestion and Joshua's, I'm going to check for flatness and see how bad it is. I have a large granite surface plate, and I should be able to get a fee for how bad it is.


What Joshua says plus a comment.

Unless there is a big problem with the sole, my suggestion would be to use the plane for awhile before trying to make it any better.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

I had to step out to take care of my chickens and geese. I wanted to add a bit more about this part of your post.


1) The lever cap really feels like a low quality part. The edge that pushes the cap iron down was very out of flat, and the lever and spring mechanism barely works.
2) The Frog was/is incredibly difficult to adjust. They must have a fixture at the factory, or they would have whittled away any profit adjusting it. The lever on the frog used to set the side-to-side play of the blade needed some attention with a file for the slot in the new blade to fit. (The LV blade's slot was slightly narrower than the original.) The frogs face that beds against the blade was also in need of attention, still might need more work. After a huge amount of fiddling, to adjust it, it's still too far back and the gap at the mouth is too large.

Pictures almost always help.

Is the lever cap spring bent? There should be cam on the lever. Hopefully a previous owner didn't file this down for lack of knowledge of adjusting the lever screw. If that is the case, you may be able to remove the lever and build up the cam with something like JB Weld.

For frog adjustment a dulled blade or just a good flat piece of metal up through the mouth can assist in getting the frog set.

Does this plane have a frog adjustment screw?

Someone may have filed the mouth in the past. For a jointer plane, this isn't a big problem. The frog should have enough movement forward to close it up some if someone didn't mess it up too bad.

jtk

[Terry Beadle]

I've got a Record #7 and set it up with a Clifton blade and stay set. Couldn't be happier. No problems, adjusts easily, retains an edge etc.

Regarding the flatness of the sole, I wouldn't touch it. If you are able to get 2 thou shavings on a jointer, then you are done IMO. Most times you should be taking twice or even three times that thick a shaving on a jointer.

I'd use it, maybe tune the blade if needed but I'd not touch the sole.

[Jim Foster]

Pretty good success so far! Several more notes:

I set the plane on a surface plate and as able to get a .001 feeler under a good length of one side of the plane, but not under the mouth anywhere. Could not get a .002 feeler under it anywhere, so I think it's pretty good. (it does not mean it's not hollowed out more than .001 or so underneath, but at all the end surfaces it seems pretty pretty flat and co-planar)

I think the frog is not flat where the blade rests against it, so I'm going to try and flatten it over the next several days. The lever on the top of the Frog is also offset from center a little and the blade gets close to one side already, so there is not a lot of room to set the blade perpendicular to the sole via the lever without the blade hitting a side of the plane body, but so far it's been just workable. For this plane, the Frog seems like the least well manufactured piece, but it's also the most complicated as well, I guess.

I sharpened the blade and was able to dial in nice thin shavings and flattened the face of a 4.5" by 44" length of Q-Sawn White Oak that was ran through a jointer on one side and a planer on the other. Looks great, no tearout. Took about two minutes.

I think when the frog is flat and when I get a little better at sharpening, I'll be on a roll.

Usually to sand oak, I use 80, 120, 150 and 220, so, HUGE savings in time, noise, hassle, dust (even with a vacuum on the ROS.)

After I flatten the Frog, I'm going to try and restore a #5 I have to use as a scrub plane.

[Jim Koepke]

I think the frog is not flat where the blade rests against it, so I'm going to try and flatten it over the next several days. The lever on the top of the Frog is also offset from center a little and the blade gets close to one side already, so there is not a lot of room to set the blade perpendicular to the sole via the lever without the blade hitting a side of the plane body, but so far it's been just workable. For this plane, the Frog seems like the least well manufactured piece, but it's also the most complicated as well, I guess.

I was going to comment on this and then I went back and reread the part about this plane being from the mid '90s.

I am not sure about the Record planes, but newer Stanley/Bailey planes can use an older frog as long as it is from a type 10 or later.

Unfortunately changes to the design of planes after the mid 1930s was to cut cost, not to improve quality.

jtk

[Jim Foster]

I go to several flea markets every year where there are a few tool vendors. (20 years ago, there wore lots of great tools at one flea market I frequent on an annual basis, too bad I'm out of sync by so many years) I think I'll be able to keep the Frog and improve it, and once I get it set, I'll probably never adjust it again. But I'll look for a replacement lever cap. It has the look & feel of a cheap painted on chrome job and does not work very well.


I was going to comment on this and then I went back and reread the part about this plane being from the mid '90s.

I am not sure about the Record planes, but newer Stanley/Bailey planes can use an older frog as long as it is from a type 10 or later.

Unfortunately changes to the design of planes after the mid 1930s was to cut cost, not to improve quality.

jtk