Recommend a bowl gouge for me

[Derek Gilmer]

My little harbor freight turning set is serving me pretty well. But Mark loaned me a nice bowl gouge (name with held for now) that works much better than anything in the set for the inside of bowls. Not surprising since there isn't a bowl gouge in there. One of the generous gifts from my better half was a blank piece of paper saying "bowl gouge". I would prefer to keep the price under $100 if possible. But if it is one of those cases where $150 gets a tool that is much better than $100 and will last for a few years of sharpening I'm ok with that.

Details about my turning that may inform the choices:
My lathe for the foreseeable future is a delta 46-460 so bowl size won't get bigger than 12" outside diameter.
I've got a woodcraft slow speed grinder with stock wheels, no plans for a CBN wheel soon.
I've got a wolverine + varigrind to sharpen with.
I plan to use the celtic grid.
Most of the woods I turn are local green blanks of ash, cherry, walnut or cedar. But fancy blanks are possible occasionally.
At least for now I'd like one with a handle, never turned a handle before and not sure starting on my first bowl gouge is the best choice.

So what says the spinny wisdom of the creek?

[Alan Trout]

I would suggest the 1/2"V Thompson bowl gouge. It is simply put the best value gouge on the market. It will work from a small bowl to a big bowl and it has excellent steel with a very forgiving and effective flute profile and it can be had for about $55. But you will have to make a handle.

Alan

[Scott Hackler]

Derek,

Here's a few options:

Sorby 3/8" (same as a 1/2" in the USA) will run you $76.50
Crown PM 3/8 (same as 1/2" in the USA) is $47
Glaser 1/2" is $159
Thompson 1/2" with a 16" aluminum handle will cost $100
Thompson 1/2" steel only and you make your own wood handle is $45 for the steel

Thompson and Glaser's steel is harder than Sorby. Crown is a bit harder than the Sorby. I own several Thompsons and Sorbys. I really like the edge holding of the Thomsons but use my 3/8" Sorby more than any other tool, just because I learned on it and its "comfortable". But I am slowly weening myself away from it and want to embrace a similar Thompson for the edge holding advantage. Glaser, according to the people who own them, are a very nice tool but I don't have any personal experience with them. They are a little pricey though.

[Curt Fuller]

I would suggest the 1/2"V Thompson bowl gouge. It is simply put the best value gouge on the market. It will work from a small bowl to a big bowl and it has excellent steel with a very forgiving and effective flute profile and it can be had for about $55. But you will have to make a handle.

Alan
+1 Probably as good an all purpose tool as you can get.

[Derek Gilmer]

I would suggest the 1/2"V Thompson bowl gouge. It is simply put the best value gouge on the market. It will work from a small bowl to a big bowl and it has excellent steel with a very forgiving and effective flute profile and it can be had for about $55. But you will have to make a handle.

Alan

Hmm for a price and steel quality like that I can learn to turn a handle.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Let's continue to broaden out the field... Even more so since the new Glaser are insanely over-priced.

If you want a reasonable bowl gouge, I would look into Benjamen's Best from Penn State Industries. You can get a set of three (3/8, 1/2 and 5/8) for $52, the 1/2 inch is $20. No, they are not high-end, but you are still learning, right? Better to waste off cheap steel on the grinder then expensive. The additional advantage here is you can put different grinds with different bevels, wasting steel, learning what you need and what you want to do, cheap.

Then spend real money on a good gouge, you will notice the difference

Another good source of tools is D-Way, Dave's M42 steel is very nice (as are his CBN wheels)

[John Keeton]

Derek, I have several Thompson tools, and they are good quality. His 1/2" V gouge was my first "good" gouge, and it is considerably shorter than when purchased. Doug is a good guy, and makes good tools.

Having said that, I also have Dave Schwietzer's (D-Way Tools) 1/2" gouge (M42 Cobalt as Ralph indicated), and I am finding it to be my favorite. It is a different flute profile than is the V Thompson, and seems to work well for the type of work I do. In addition, it holds an edge as well as the Thompson - sometimes I feel even a little longer. It also seems to be sharper off the wheel (CBN from Dave) and the polished interior flute seems to help, as well.

I don't want to take away from Doug's Tools - I love his detail gouges, and I have a 3/8" bowl gouge that is a much used tool, as well. A lot of this is using a few of them and settling into what suits you. And, as with me, over time, the manner in which you use a gouge may alter your preferences.

[Bill Wyko]

I have to disagree with you Ralph. The Glaser mini set work every bit as well as bigger tools and they run about $77.00 bucks each. In addition, any tool you have to buy a handle for is going to have added expense. Glaser tools aren't for the person looking for "Cheap" tools. They are for the person looking for the best quality for an affordable price. OR you can buy tools that end up like this. These were over $100.00 and look where it got me. Glaser never intended to be the cheapest tools on the market, they set out to be the best you can get for the money you spend. IMNSHO they achieved this hands down. Bottom line is, spend the money once and never be let down. Or buy something inferior and have it let you down at the least opportune time. I always tell my audio customers, buy the good stuff a little at a time and get what you really want. You'll be glad you did in the end. One more thing, see this broken parting tool, imagine what that tip could have done if it were to stick you in the chest. When that tool broke, I decided no more wood handles. That could have killed me. That makes Glaser cheap at twice the price.

(Notice how little of the tool went into the gouges handle) BTW that's a Crown ProPM.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/23875803/398206898.jpg

[Bill Wyko]

I would also recommend that what ever tool you get, get one with a dampened handle. It makes a world of difference when you turn thin. It's very forgiving if you hit as knott or a spot that would normally cause a catch. They will motor right through.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Everyone here have offered valid reasons to purchase various tools... but I agree with Ralph. Check out Penn State Ind and buy one gouge to learn on and it will be at a price that won't break the bank. Then when you know what it is you want to turn, then check into Doug's, Dave's or Paulo's tools!

[David E Keller]

For under a hundred, I'd get the 1/2 and 3/8 V tools from Thompson... Handles are dead easy to make. If you don't want two gouges, I'd get the 1/2 and spend the extra money on an after-market handle. I have one from Thompson and one from Monster, and I do like the feel of the handles better than the wooden ones I own. I've never owned the Benjamin's best tools, but they seem to be a heck of a bargain. Certainly, there's no right answer to your question, so you'll have to go with your gut on this one.

[Harvey Ghesser]

What Bill said...

[Joe Watson]

Im new to wood turning as well and was gonna post something similar to this and Steve Schlumpf:

If you want a reasonable bowl gouge, I would look into Benjamen's Best from Penn State Industries. You can get a set of three (3/8, 1/2 and 5/8) for $52, the 1/2 inch is $20. No, they are not high-end, but you are still learning, right? Better to waste off cheap steel on the grinder then expensive. The additional advantage here is you can put different grinds with different bevels, wasting steel, learning what you need and what you want to do, cheap.

Then spend real money on a good gouge, you will notice the difference

I have a home made wolverine varigrind jig and its nice to play around with different grinds and not feel too bad that in a couple months the gouge will probably be a 2"s long :) Later down the line i will a few good tools when i know what i really want.

Good luck with your decision.

_

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree with Ralph and Steve. I started out with the 3 bowl gouges from PSI. I have since gotten several Thompson gouges but still find myself picking up the PSI gouges about as often. They do hold a pretty good edge and if you mess up the grind and have to redo it or ruin it, it doesn't break the bank.

[Bill Wyko]

I still have to say, the weighted handle in my Glaser truly brought my skill level up a notch. I'm able to turn much thinner than ever before and less catches. It works similar to a flywheel on a motor. Rather than a catch jerking the handle abruptly, it dampens the cut so it just slices right through. I've never used Thompsons or some of the others mentioned so I can't give you an opinion on those. But I can say the difference from my Crown ProPm wood handles to to my Glaser weighted handled tools is truly night and day. When it comes to sharpness, even when I'm turning Gabon Ebony, the tool stays sharp throughout the whole project.
I do recomend getting yourself the tormek TTS100 and the universal gouge jig asap. I never guess at a grind. Those two are more expensive than the tools being discussed here but you'll never screw up a gouge to begin with. That gauge takes all the guess work out of sharpening. Even does an Elsworth grind perfectly and skews too. In addition, there are about 2 dozen other grinds you can set it up to do with dead accuracy. I ordered a Glaser V10 to specifically put an Elsworth grind on and even reshaping it, it came out perfect in a few minutes. IMHO a tool that will most likely last for my lifetime in the range of the Glaser tool line up, is a pretty good investment. I forgot to mention, I've had other Crown tools fall out of the handle over time too. Just not confident in wood handles anymore. Afteral, what's "cheaper" in the end? $50.00 tool with a 1 or 2 year life expectancy? Or a $200.00 tool you can pass down through generations? I plan on turning for at least another 30 years or more. (If I don't kick the bucket)
Bottom line is, everyone posting in this thread are very talented turners and devoted to their tool of choice from experience. They wouldn't be if the tools didn't perform. It'll be up to you to decide which tool you feel will suit your needs and go the duration. Just another aspect of the wonderful thing we all call........the Vortex!

Here's a link for the sharpening jigs. It can easily be adapted to your sharpener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VP9SPmVnqA

[Justin Stephen]

I really like the edge holding of the Thomsons but use my 3/8" Sorby more than any other tool, just because I learned on it and its "comfortable".

Same. I own Thompsons but I still use my Sorby 3/8" (actually 1/2" as Scott pointed out) far more than anything. Trent Bosch reground my Sorby's to match the grind on his gouges when I was out at his place this past winter and I love them. On that note, when I was there, I spent a lot of time using Bosch gouges and they are fine tools indeed and he makes very nice handles as well. His 1/2" gouge goes for $70 unhandled. The next time I need a gouge, I will probably buy one of his.

I bought a PSI gouge about a year ago and must say I was quite unimpressed with its ability to hold an edge. Mine has to be resharpened way too darn often so I quit using it pretty quickly.

[Derek Gilmer]

The glaser looks very interesting and you make some great points bill. I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits to me at my current level over a thompson gouge + one of their shot deadened handles. Especially since a bowl gouge was never something I thought of as a lifetime tool. It got filed in with chisels and plane blades. They may last awhile but I'm only 33, hopefully I'll be turning long enough to sharpen them down to a nub :). I wish the 15v version of the 1/2 v gouge wasn't sold out.

[John Keeton]

Derek, you might do some study on the 15V vs. the 10V. There are some that say the 15V has a somewhat brittle edge and may get microscopic fractures resulting in a duller edge. I do not have one, so I am only repeating what I have heard. Seems that the comments are that the 10V is more tool for the money. Just passing along some talk I have heard - may all be rubbish!

[Ken Hill]

I will be needing a new bowl gouge here shortly. I have one of Thompsons but cant seem to get it ground right. I would love to have a standard grind on his handle....

[Jerry Wright]

John: 15V is clearly a more wear resistant grade than 10V, and will hold an edge longer, especially in abrasive woods (most woods are abrasive). The chipping complaints are generally related to improper heat treatment or poor grinding practice. The same would be said of any of the really high alloy materials e.g. asp 60. As to what is a better value, that is in the eye of the beholder. I have a new 30k GMC Terrain. My friend has a new 55k BMW 550i. He thinks hi is a better value!!!

I have always bought the best tools for the job at hand. I don't have a monster or a Stubby, but if in trouble, I will hire the best lawyer that I can afford!!

[Jack Mincey]

I've turned with a number of bowl gouges and while there are some that out do the HSS Ellsworth gouge for roughing, none of them work as well for me around. I have the V and U 5/8" Thompson and like both of them for different areas of turning a bowl, but still prefer the Ellsworth most of the time. There is just a tiny bit of difference between the depth of the flute of Thompson V 5/8" and the Ellsworth 1/2" gouge, but I still find my self preferring to use the Ellsworth most of the time. It just simply works better for me all around. I sharpen all my gouges often so the difference in steel makes little difference. I do think that I get a better edge on the HSS Ellsworth for finial passes as well. Heck I still use a lot of old carbon steel tools for spindle work. I think that one of the most important area's of turning is sharpening so I've become very quick at doing it over the years. Try keeping tools sharpened for 5 lathes in a High School Shop for years and any one will become proficient at it.
Jack

[John Keeton]

John: 15V is clearly a more wear resistant grade than 10V, and will hold an edge longer...Jerry, I do understand this concept, and much of this "edge debate" is similar to what occurs in the world of flatwork. Some feel there is an inverse coorelation between the hardness of the steel and the keeness of the edge, and hold the position that one can often achieve a sharper edge with carbon steel than with a more modern HSS or other alloy - sacrificing actual sharpness for longevity of the edge. I am quite sure there is no definitive answer for this issue, and if there is doubt in any one's mind, simply visit the Neander Forum, and search back through the numerous threads on this issue - it is mind boggling, and made far too complex for my feeble mind!!:eek:

What is more important, I think, is the individual turning characteristics of the user. I don't do a lot of "roughouts". Most of my pieces start with a chunk of dry wood that I have rounded with a bandsaw to a size very close to the final dimensions. From there, the actual rough shaping of the piece doesn't take long. What I am most concerned with is a very sharp edge, and like Jack, I sharpen often. Regardless of whether it is my 10V Thompson, or the D-Way gouge, I will go back to the wheel a couple of times while turning a relatively small form. I want a very clean cut. While I can tell a marked difference in the longevity of an edge produced on a BB M2 HSS gouge, it is a tough call on whether the D-Way outlasts the Thompson. It seems it does, but my guess is I go back to the wheel as frequently with either.

So, when one says an edge will hold longer on a certain tool, that may mean different things for different turners. When I freshen the edge on a gouge, it is on the CBN wheel a matter of seconds - probably 2 seconds on each wing, sharpening from the far reach of the wing to the center. That is all it takes, and I suspect I am not losing much material with those passes.

My conclusions are that there is far more to "my favorite gouge" than just the metal composition. There is the "feel", the profile, the polish of the flute, whether certain steels do better on the CBN (produce a finer edge), etc. One could wish that there was the "ultimate gouge", but in reality, that does not seem to be the case.

[Steve Kubien]

I have a few bowl gouges from different makers... A 5/8" Ellsworth from Lee Valley which I really like except it doesn't hold an edge as long as others (but I love the shape and it excels at shear scraping), Thompson V's in 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8", all on Thompson handles (my go to gouges), a 1/2" U Thompson and a P&N 5/8" Supa gouge.

I use the Thompson V's more than any other for a few reasons... I love the way they hold up, the flute shape works very well for me and in my hands, I cannot imagine a nicer handle. Simply put, there is no good reason for me change to anything else. The P&N was my first "good" gouge and it is wonderful. I just like the feel of the Thompsons more, mainly because the handle I made for it is really awful. I intend to dismount it soon and use it in the Thompson handles. I could never get the feel for the 1/2" U from Thompson. I think it is the flute shape and that I cannot put a decent point on the end like I can with the V flute.

I'm going to be contrarian on two points earlier. #1. I hate the idea of buying cheap tools to learn how to sharpen on. My goodness, sharpening is not rocket science and unless you are leaning the tool into the wheel, you are not going to waste a whole whack of steel. If you ARE leaning into it, STOP!!!!!!, back away and take up crocheting scarves and mittens. The other thing is that all brands have slightly different flute shapes which means you cannot sharpen them the same way as another. Therefore, once you get your "good" gouge, you need to start again anyway. So, what have you gained? #2. The idea of any turning tool being a "lifetime" tool is utter nonsense. Tools are a disposable, fact-of-life thing which will wear down and wear out. In this regard, they are no different than sandpaper...just another tool. If you really believe your gouge is going to last a lifetime, you are either dilliusional, you don't turn very much or you don't sharpen much and work with dull tools. Harsh? Perhaps but 10V steel from one maker or another is going to last only so long. 15V? I honestly have no idea but there is no research I have seen which makes me believe it is a lifetime tool. If it was, we wouldn't need grinders, would we?

[Derek Gilmer]

The answer seems to be clear. Buy one of each and see which is my favorite.

As with many ideas that come from SMC I'm sure my wife will be pleased with the outcome.

[Bill Wyko]

The glaser looks very interesting and you make some great points bill. I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits to me at my current level over a thompson gouge + one of their shot deadened handles. Especially since a bowl gouge was never something I thought of as a lifetime tool. It got filed in with chisels and plane blades. They may last awhile but I'm only 33, hopefully I'll be turning long enough to sharpen them down to a nub :). I wish the 15v version of the 1/2 v gouge wasn't sold out.

I have found that by using the Tormek jigs (on my jet sharpener) and due to the tools ability to stay sharp over long periods of time, I just have to do a light touch up when I start a new project and move on. At some point in time I recommend a wet sharpener. I litterally am on the stone for a few seconds just to give it a freshening up.
Remember, good things come to those that wait......Ok I don't buy that crap for a minute... but in this case I think you'll really like the tool.It was a real game changer for me. No matter what, you're in good hands with this crowd. Be sure to share your work with us.

[Bill Wyko]

I do think that no matter what tool you choose, the important thing is to really hone your sharpening skills. A sharpie will be your best friend. You probably already know to black out the sweeping edge to be sharpened before you touch the tool to the stone. Then check to see if your are landing on the stone properly to prevent a reshaping effect. I've seen so many videos on youtube where turners are showing their tool and the gouge has an under cut along the side as opposed to a slight hump along the side. The tormek jig will compensate for a stone getting smaller over time and allow you to replicate the grind over and over. In the end, sharpening skills are the key to longevity of any tool. You should never have to be at the wheel for more than a few seconds once you get your technique down.

[Steve Kubien]

I have toyed with the idea of getting a Tormek (or copy) but just haven't been able to part with the cash (too many other things seem to take priority for me).

Bill, I will echo your comments about a Sharpie being important for sharpening, especially as you learn. Excellent aid to give immediate feedback. I do have a question for you... How does the Tormek adapt to the wearing of the wheel? Is it just because the wheel wears so slowly or is it something else that I can't wrap my head around?

Thanks.

[Jack Tyree]

+ all the other comments on the Thompson gouges. I got my first (good) bowl gouge from him and my learning and skill level took an immediate curve north. They hold an edge longer and silly as it may sound, I think they actually get sharper than other tools. Only thing I wish is that I hadn't waited to get one of his handles for my Jordan hollowing tools before I made wood handles for the gouges. The handles are super too!

[Ron Bontz]

Yep. What Steve said. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Unless, of course, you practice death by grinding. Best of luck to you.

[Bill Wyko]

Because the tts100 has those 2 little round metal thingy's the distance from the wheel is set when they both rest on the wheel. So as the wheel gets smaller, they still have to both rest on the wheel to be correct which moves it closer to the wheel. The Youtube video explains it far better than I do. Definitely check it out. It's 99% fail proof.

I also have to add, my Jet wet sharpener's motor died after 4 years of use. they sent me a whole new sharpener to replace the bad one. Excellent service for sure.

Here's a link to a cheap wet sharpener. I have no idea of the quality or compatibility of it but it's a great price to get your feet wet (Or your tools)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREE-SHIPPING-Northern-Industrial-Wet-Sharpening-System-8in-Wheels-ZFS2000-/280794816450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4160acdfc2

[Tom Hardy]

Because the tts100 has those 2 little round metal thingy's the distance from the wheel is set when they both rest on the wheel. So as the wheel gets smaller, they still have to both rest on the wheel to be correct which moves it closer to the wheel. The Youtube video explains it far better than I do. Definitely check it out. It's 99% fail proof.

I also have to add, my Jet wet sharpener's motor died after 4 years of use. they sent me a whole new sharpener to replace the bad one. Excellent service for sure.

Here's a link to a cheap wet sharpener. I have no idea of the quality or compatibility of it but it's a great price to get your feet wet (Or your tools)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREE-SHIPPING-Northern-Industrial-Wet-Sharpening-System-8in-Wheels-ZFS2000-/280794816450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4160acdfc2


Here's a better deal on a sharpener http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Grinder-Sharpener/T10097 for $89.95 I am happy with mine, had it for just over a year now.

[Justin Stephen]

Same. I own Thompsons but I still use my Sorby 3/8" (actually 1/2" as Scott pointed out) far more than anything.

So after posting this yesterday, I decided to pull out my Thompson 1/2"V for the first time in awhile and use it to finish turn a larger walnut bowl. I enjoyed the heck out of using it and got a nice clean surface with it. Go figure.

[curtis rosche]

thompson 1/2 gouge with a oneway large aluminum handle

[Anthony Cayll]

I agree with Bill. Glaser is the way to go. Extremely comfortable and hold an edge like no other. Spend the money and own the best..

[Mark Cothren]

Derek, you know what I use and what I like. I'm surprised that I seem to be the only one using P&N tools. That's okay... more for me when I need another one. I like turning my own handles. If/when you get ready to handle a turning tool just let me know - I can help you out with it.

For gouges I have P&N (5), Crown (1), Thompson U-flute (1) and have had a Benjamin's Best. I like them all, but end up using the P&Ns more than the others. I wouldn't use another Benjamin's Best if they were giving them away free. In fact, I gave away the one I had. It wouldn't hold an edge worth a flip. Maybe I just had a bad piece of metal... I dunno.

If you *want* to use a wet sharpener then that is fine, but you certainly don't *need* one.

You're welcome to come over and use my Thompson and Crown for a while and see how you like them. They are both wide flutes and have larger handles than what I put on my P&Ns, so that will give you a differerent feel, too.

[Justin Stephen]

I wouldn't use another Benjamin's Best if they were giving them away free. In fact, I gave away the one I had. It wouldn't hold an edge worth a flip. Maybe I just had a bad piece of metal... I dunno.



That was exactly my experience as well.

[Pat Keefe]

For me, P&N gouges are good tools( 6mm, 10mm, 12mm & 22mm). They last well with turning the harder timber prevelant in Australia. I also have a few Kiwi made Woodcut (10mm, 13mm & 16mm). I recently got a couple Thompson U flutes, American size 1/2 and 5/8, Australian/English size 3/8 and 1/2. I have thrown them at some Red Gum burl and Yellow Box Burl. They handled the Red Gum Burl, but the Yellow Box Burl destroys edges, but in Black Walnut they cut like butter and last as long as the P&N's. I also have a Crown, a few Sorby and an Ellsworth. I have the Tormek (T-7)for it's ease of use and repeatability.

[Kelvin Burton]

Derek,

When you decide to make a tool handle this series of Youtube clips helped me greatly! In fact, I was making another for my latest Thompson bowl gouge today! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Yh5AKDJk8

I started with set of Benjamin's Best I bought on Amazon, and I've been slowly adding various more expensive tools as the money is available :D

[Hayes Rutherford]

Derek, just to add to the information overload, I agree with most here that Benjamin's Best and Thompson gouges are a great value. I'll be different and add one more(actually someone else mentioned the gouges sold by Trent Bosch) and that would be Hamlet. M2 at it's finest, at reasonable price including a nice ash handle.

[Robert Henrickson]

I'm interested that no one has mentioned Packard tools. Their sidegrind bowl gouges have a flute profile that I prefer over others I have tried -- less prone to clogging.