Anyone build wine cellars?

[Bill Wyko]

I've been asked to build a 3000 bottle wine cellar. I've bought a couple books on the subject but if anyone here has any experience in this, I'd love to hear from you.

[Brian Backner]

What is it that you want to know? I built a 1,500 bottle one several years ago. The main things to consider are insulation, the cooling/humidification system (you CANNOT use just any old air conditioner), and racking. The last was unbelievably tedious - some 1,800 pieces of redwood that came to several hundred board feet. I was fortunate to find what I needed off of CL for $150 - was some shelving out of an old 100+ year old factory being torn down - all first growth stuff that I doubt you could find at a dealer at any price.

I do recall that I had found a book or booklet on design considerations that was quite thorough.

Brian

[Rob Sack]

I would think in addition to insulation, moisture control would be important. A proper wine cellar needs around a 70% relative humidity. Containing that moisture within the wine cellar and preventing it from escaping and getting trapped in surrounding areas is necessary to prevent the accumulation of mold, not to mention lessen the load on any humidification equipment. I would think a vapor barrier like Tyvek installed correctly would prevent the high humidity from escaping the wine cellar, but allow any moisture present in the surround structure to permeate back into the wine cellar.

[Bill Wyko]

I've been looking at the cooling systems for wine cellars and humidifiers. Any particular brand or size I should look at?

[Joel Wesseling]

I built my own and used a "Vintage Keeper" cooler. It holds about 700 but has extra floor space. about 200 cub feet
2x6 insulated with vapour barrier on both sides. Floor raised and insulated with steel insul door
The walls are covered with cedar linning and floor is tiled with slate

[Steve Griffin]

Built a few small ones, and one around 1000 bottles.

Some thoughts:

-To keep it interesting, vary the types of storage. Large openings which can hold a case of "everyday" wine in one opening and magnum sized storage for example.

-My favorite style is vertical partitions with 1" ledgers, since these are easier to clean and build than cubbies or those diagonal lattice affairs. See pic.

-Providing some counter space is nice for unloading boxes as well as a drawer or two for inventory, order sheets etc.

-Think hard about your finish- with all the nooks and crannies, it would be a no fun to apply stain or paint. In most cases I save final assembly until after finish work is complete.

[Ryan Mooney]

I built a small (~400 bottle) one in my garage a few years back and used a heavily modified wall cooler (the humidity issues the wine cooler salespeople claim in using them are somewhat overblown I found out after reading a lot and then testing it - note that I did say its somewhat modified so ymmv). Obviously that's not a solution here :D but I spent an inordinate amount of time researching the subject that I should have spent building the darn thing :rolleyes:

The people selling wine cooler chiller/humidity control units appear to be first cousins to dust collector salesmen. As best as I could tell all of the small-mid range units specs are full of "creative measuring" and don't align very well with reality (i.e. don't expect them to actually work when the outside temperature goes up). At this size I would seriously consider looking at a split unit and talking to someone who really understands the hvac/cooling systems somewhat well as it gets... complicated.
I would agree 100% with Brian, the racks themselves are beyond tedious to make. I ended up with mostly X's and squares for that reason (well and I could fit another few dozen bottles in that way as well :D). If you're bidding this out do yourself a favor and build a few sample racks before pricing (or find a place to buy them pre-done - sadly the fit and finish I've seen for that is.. about worth what you pay for I guess. Makes nice kindling). 3000 bottles worth of racks - yikes!
I personally prefer a mostly unfinished interior, partially this is due to my ignorance of proper finishing solutions here and fear of having something that off gasses; which is really really bad for wine (if nothing else be careful on selection I guess). The moisture really isn't high enough to cause a lot of problems for most wood, but straight grain that won't twist and something that won't mildew is desirable.
You want to keep the moisture IN, basically the inverse of building a house where you wrap the outside, here you seal the inside. I caulked and sealed mine with concrete sealing paint (which... yep.. needed ~4 weeks to de-stink before I could use it.. ah well).

I'll definitely be watching this thread with interest,

May I ask what books you've bought on this and what you think of them so far?

[Bill Wyko]

Right now I'm about 1/2 way through the book "The home wine cellar" by Perry Sims. He is also the person that was considered for the job. I just finished a humidor and a segmented vessel for this client. He was very happy with my work and wants to see me succeed in a future of woodworking. I think it's great that I have this opportunity. The difficult part is, my shop is in Tucson and the job is in Nevada. I'll have to go up and measure, come back & build. Then take the necessary tools up in a trailer and complete the job. It'll be worth it though. What a start to my resume for wine cellars.

[Kent Parker]

Bill,

Just to give you a few ideas on storage. Its nice to have areas for immediate access to bottles and storage for the wine that won't be opened for awhile. This celler has storage for large format bottles and for cases also. Not every bottle has to be visually exposed. This wood in this cellar is Honduras mahogany. Goes together pretty easily. Counter tops are cement. Access to bottles is very easy whereas the "diamond" storage method is not (the bottle you want typically has a stack of bottles on it).

Cheers,

Kent

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[Thomas love]

I just happened to be working on one rite now, approx 1500 bottles. The home owner is a contractor and has prepped the room accordingly . Material is Sapele, I designed the racks to go in after finishing as the last time I did one (5000 bottles) it almost drove me insane. The room is 5' 6" wide by 10' deep and 10 feet tall Leaving me approx 42" between rack walls, this design also lets you see more bottle and not have the immediate face of the cubby style frame upon you in this narrow space.

As though it was not tedious enough I had to hand plane all the parts to fit in the daddos on the posts, approx 1500 . One plus for the hand planing is no sanding, I sanded them close to final dimension with wide belt then finished with smoother to fit as I assembled racks. The ceiling is going to be arch frame and Pommel sapele veneered panels.
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[Kent Parker]

Bill,

It might not be obvious to a non wine drinker so I will mention that not all bottles are the same length and diameter. Pinot bottles are larger diameter than standard Bordeaux bottles and sparkeling wines and Champagne bottles are even larger.

Cheers,

Kent

[Thomas love]

Good point Kent, WWW.wineracksamerica.com (http://www.wineracksamerica.com) has a racking chart specifying the bottle sizes and spacing.

[Bill Wyko]

I knew I came to the right place for answers. Thanks so much guys, keep the info coming. I'll be traveling a long way to do this job so I want to be sure I get this right. he humidor I just built in the "Pojects" area went to this client as well as the vessel I turned a while back called Monsoon. It's exciting to have someone collecting my wood work. I think this wine cellar will be a challenge but it will also be very satisfying in the end. Can't wait to get started.

[Peter Quinn]

Interesting thread. I've been doing a bit of research for a wine cellar for my own house, been thinking about racking systems, cooling systems, substrates and insulation preparation. I don't have much to offer in terms of practical advice on the details, but it occurs to me the first thing I would want to determine are the goals of this client. A 3000 bottle cellar could easily house over $250K in wine, and easily much more depending on the budget of the owner. I would want to determine if this cellar is for "Investment grade" wine, or a place to store wine for basic consumption. My logic being that the investment grade cellar would warrant much greater control systems and security, both in terms of climate and actual physical security. Here in New England the basement is always cold and damp, I don't imagine the same conditions exist in Nevada? The second thing I would want is liability insurance given the potential cost of a failure of the climate control system or even the unlikely collapse of a wracking system.

Bill, your work is so spectacular it will be amazing to see your aesthetics taken to the scale of an entire room sized exhibition.