is a small band saw better for detail work than a big one?

[Matthew N. Masail]

as the title read, is there an advantage to using a smaller 14" band saw for scroll work over a 18" + saw?

[David Hawxhurst]

i would think that depends on what your work style. do you already have two bandsaws? some thoughts 14" has smaller table and less throat depth (would only be a concern working with larger pieces). my large bandsaw can do everything a small bandsaw and more.

[Jim Becker]

This is a really good question. While it's absolutely true that you can run narrow blades on most big saws, if this is something you do a lot, then personally, my preference would be to have a smaller saw available to do this detail work. There have been times when I regret that I sold my 14" BS when I bought the larger MM16 for exactly this reason. When I move between the typical 3/8" to 3/4" wide blades I most often use on my MM16, there is little or no "setup" work outside of minor adjustment of the guides to accomodate the width of the blade. When I drop down to a 1/8" through 1/4" blade, I have to adjust the wheels and more. While that's not something I do with frequency, especially since my shop time is limited and I don't actually do much detail work on the BS for my projects, it would still be nice if I could keep a smaller saw with a narrow blade on it for convenience.

[glenn bradley]

I picked up a little Rockwell Delta 10" saw at a garage sale and tuned it up for smaller work. My larger saw is a more refined machine and runs more smoothly. If I were doing a lot of fine work I have a couple smaller blades that I put on the larger saw. For the most part I run 1/8" or 1/4" blades on the 10" saw and do fine as long as the stock or the pattern are not too demanding. FWIW, I would not want to go back to a single bandsaw layout.

[Van Huskey]

If you are asking if it is nice to have a second bandsaw around, then the answer is a wholehearted yes. If you want to know whether a small bandsaw or a large bandsaw works better using a narrow blade for "scroll work" then that depends on the saw. For the sake of discussion I will call saws with 16" and over wheels "large". The things many if not most small saws have that you need to work easily with narrow blades (1/8-1/4") are crowned wheels and guides designed for use with this sort of narrow blade. Larger saws often have flat wheel/tire combinations and guides that are designed for use with only wider blades, built more for a resaw role.

The simple answer is wheel size alone has little to do with how a bandsaw will fuction with small blades (outside allowing for larger throat depth). Of my bandsaws my personal favorite for scroll work is my old Delta 28-350, it has 20" wheels but it has crowned tires and the guides have been replaced with a system that allows the easy use of narrow blades. Further it has 2 things that are also perfect for scroll (tight contour) work and they are a large table and relatively high table height. Many smaller saws (and some large saws) have small tables and are built low either because they are designed for resaw or in the case of small saws just small. Most large saws built today have low tables to accomodate easy resaw operations which I don't like for scroll work, even general contour work can be a pain if you have a lot to do, the taller one is the more of an issue it is.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Actually I don't have a bandsaw yet, I wanted to save up and get a top notch 18" saw with 12"+ resaw height, but I find myself whishing I had a band saw every time I'm in the shop lately so I thought maybe I'd get a 14" with 6" resaw for now, and later get a big resaw one, and I though maybe it's better to have 2 anyway. Thanks Van for the explanation, I think I will go with this saw http://www.toolstop.co.uk/makita-lb1200f-band-saw-305mm-240v-p14467 it's nicely priced and has some nice reviews (-: Just ordered a compound sliding miter saw too, 8.5" blade.

[Van Huskey]

Actually I don't have a bandsaw yet, I wanted to save up and get a top notch 18" saw with 12"+ resaw height, but I find myself whishing I had a band saw every time I'm in the shop lately so I thought maybe I'd get a 14" with 6" resaw for now, and later get a big resaw one, and I though maybe it's better to have 2 anyway


Getting a small saw, which usually means a 14" cast iron "Delta clone" is great for two reasons, first it gives you a saw that CAN work well for small blades. I say can because some 14" saws still have guides that don't work well with really narrow blades but they almost all have crowned tires. The guides can be supplemented with the best 1/8"-1/4" guide which IMHO is the Carter stabilizer. The second advantage of going small first is the ability to watch the used market for that deal on a great large saw.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Van, can you please take a look at the Makita saw I gave a link too above and tell me if it has the right guides? I remember reading that the Carter Stabilizer only fits certain saws right?

[Jim Matthews]

May I recommend you read any online article available from Michael Fortune, a frequent contributor to the Woodworking rags.
He can afford any machine, and has shop space to handle any size.

His choice? A 15" General (http://marcadams.com/class304). With a riser block installed, you can resaw. Most of the time, the standard configuration is plenty.
The trick is to get them cutting straight. After reading his articles, and calling Iturra directly I now have a machine that works properly.

Big saws are nice, but they're BIG. The most distinct advantage of a smaller bandsaw is it's facility to square footage ratio.

[Van Huskey]

May I recommend you read any online article available from Michael Fortune, a frequent contributor to the Woodworking rags.
He can afford any machine, and has shop space to handle any size.

His choice? A 15" General (http://marcadams.com/class304). With a riser block installed, you can resaw. Most of the time, the standard configuration is plenty.
The trick is to get them cutting straight. After reading his articles, and calling Iturra directly I now have a machine that works properly.

Big saws are nice, but they're BIG. The most distinct advantage of a smaller bandsaw is it's facility to square footage ratio.

He is not in NA so General and Iturra are not available to him. I would argue the footprint of larger bandsaws increases at a much slower rate for more capacity than most any other machine in a woodworking shop and thus is the easiest machine to upsize in a smaller shop.

[Van Huskey]

Van, can you please take a look at the Makita saw I gave a link too above and tell me if it has the right guides? I remember reading that the Carter Stabilizer only fits certain saws right?


Having not seen this non-US saw it is REALLY hard for me to even guess if the one of the stabilzers will fit. If you can "get personal" with one of these saws it is possible to measure the parts where the guides connect to the post and compare it to these line drawings http://www.pswood.com/home.php?cat=49 and determine which if any will fit. I have done this for several saws Carter doesn't list as their stabilizers fitting. The best bet would be a saw where 1/8" blades are listed as working with the saw OR get a saw that is available in the US and the Stabilizer is listed to fit. The saw in question seems to work with 1/4" and above blades based on the specs, 1/4" blades will cut tight circles but it may not be enough for you. A 1/4" blade will cut down to about a 5/8" diameter hole, which is pushing it, my rule of thumb is about the size of a US quarter (roughly an inch or 25mm) I remember this as a quarter will cut a quarter.

[Matthew N. Masail]

So if I can find a Carter Stabilizer that will fit this Makita than it will work with 1/8 inch blades? my other options besides Metabo and DeWalt is the 14" Jet, which comes with a hefty premium on price, so the Makita seems to shine at me. there are many Chinese saws such as D&D for cheap http://www.dndtool.com/en/productShow.aspx?ID=243, but I'm guessing I'd regret getting one.

[David Kumm]

The best reason for the small saw is to free up the decision making for the big saw. Using a small saw with narrow blades means the resaw can be a real resaw. The MM 16, 20, 24 or a 30" cast iron machine can be set up with a 1" carbide blade with few limits in capability. Most- not all- 18" saws are compromise machines better suited for narrow blades than wide. There are exceptions but for day in day out resawing nothing beats a heavy machine with a strong frame. I had an ACM 18" with a 12" resaw that I got for that purpose and found out as good a saw as it was, it was better suited to narrow blades and only average at resawing. This was before manufacturers beefed up the saws to 600-1000lbs. Save up for the strongest big saw and find a cheap small one for now. I eventually moved up to a Snowflake Y20 for the small stuff and bigger Olivers for resawing. I'm overengineered but never regret the extra strength when resawing. Dave

[Van Huskey]

So if I can find a Carter Stabilizer that will fit this Makita than it will work with 1/8 inch blades? my other options besides Metabo and DeWalt is the 14" Jet, which comes with a hefty premium on price, so the Makita seems to shine at me. there are many Chinese saws such as D&D for cheap http://www.dndtool.com/en/productShow.aspx?ID=243, but I'm guessing I'd regret getting one.


If you can get a stabilizer to fit The Makita then it will accomodate an 1/8" blade, the rest of the saw most certainly will work with a narrow blade. You may want to go to the Carter site and watch the videos about the Stabilzer to get an idea how it works and what it does for your saw.

What kind of price can you get on the D&D RBS350, I ask because it is a Delta clone and though some of it may need to be sourced from the US there are an amazing amount of upgrade parts available and almost certainly a Stabilizer to fit.

[Van Huskey]

The best reason for the small saw is to free up the decision making for the big saw. Using a small saw with narrow blades means the resaw can be a real resaw. The MM 16, 20, 24 or a 30" cast iron machine can be set up with a 1" carbide blade with few limits in capability. Most- not all- 18" saws are compromise machines better suited for narrow blades than wide. There are exceptions but for day in day out resawing nothing beats a heavy machine with a strong frame. I had an ACM 18" with a 12" resaw that I got for that purpose and found out as good a saw as it was, it was better suited to narrow blades and only average at resawing. This was before manufacturers beefed up the saws to 600-1000lbs. Save up for the strongest big saw and find a cheap small one for now. I eventually moved up to a Snowflake Y20 for the small stuff and bigger Olivers for resawing. I'm overengineered but never regret the extra strength when resawing. Dave

Don't lose sight of the fact that the Minimax bandsaws as well as most of the other Italian saws imported to the US are not true vertical resaws either. My MM20 is one heck of a resaw monster but the only true vertical resaw bandsaw easily available new to the "hobby" market is the Laguna badged ACM built Resaw Master. The bottom line is although many strong spined vertical saws are more than adequate for most of our resaw needs if one plans to resaw on a daily basis even in light commercial a horizontal resaw is the way to go.

This however has little to do with the OP because his location makes obtaining many of the bandsaws we take for granted impossible either due to cost or availability.

Matthew, you may want to add your location to your profile so we don't foget to keep that in mind.

[Myk Rian]

Get the band saw you want to keep.
Now, get a used scrollie for $30 or so, and fix it up a little if needed.
You can find C-man and Delta (vintage) for real cheap, and they're head-and-shoulders above anything on the market. (Unless of course you spend $400+ for one).

[Matt Mackinnon]

This is a really good question. While it's absolutely true that you can run narrow blades on most big saws, if this is something you do a lot, then personally, my preference would be to have a smaller saw available to do this detail work. There have been times when I regret that I sold my 14" BS

I found the exact opposite. I had a 14" and couldn't wait to get rid of it as I couldn't cut a straight line for the life of me. I replaced it with a 17" King. Then I started to make bandsaw boxes, and thought I should get a second bandsaw to save on setup time. I picked up a 15" cast iron, and found that blade wonder again was not worth having that BS. So again, i couldn't wait to get rid of that smaller bandsaw. I ended up getting a second 17" King, and couldn't be happer. Perhaps one of those 14" rikon that is a welded frame would be OK.. but I won't go near any cast iron bandsaw again.

[Van Huskey]

but I won't go near any 14" DELTA CLONE cast iron bandsaw again.

Fixed it for you, since you couldn't possibly mean something like these: BTW the first is a Northfield 36 Deluxe and the second is a PM141

[Matthew N. Masail]

Now I'm confused (Edited my profile btw, thanks), the D&D is a Delta clone, right? so I should stay away from it? it's 743$ and the Makita is 970$.

is there something about a smaller saw that makes it harder for it to cut straight? that is as important to me, if not more, because I can get a scroll saw later.
I watched the Carter video a few weeks ago, and it looks like a really good thing to have. but not essential, I mean if the D&D is not so good, I'd rather have the makita with no stabilizer.

[Van Huskey]

Now I'm confused (Edited my profile btw, thanks), the D&D is a Delta clone, right? so I should stay away from it? it's 743$ and the Makita is 970$.

is there something about a smaller saw that makes it harder for it to cut straight? that is as important to me, if not more, because I can get a scroll saw later.
I watched the Carter video a few weeks ago, and it looks like a really good thing to have. but not essential, I mean if the D&D is not so good, I'd rather have the makita with no stabilizer.

First regarding Delta clones, they can be excellent saws but they have their limitations. I would bet a full 50% of people here that have a bandsaw have a 14" Delta clone. Nothing wrong with them and they have a lot of upgrades available and have the largest user base to help you figure out issues.

The D&D that you linked to was not a Delta clone (RBS315A) the D&D I mentioned http://www.dndtool.com/en/productShow.aspx?ID=245 is a Delta clone. The Makita is an unknown quantity to me, as are the D&D machines, but I would take the Makita over the similar D&D (RBS315A) but I might well take a chance on the D&D clone after finding out more about D&D. I am wondering what the price on the D&D I linked to is. My only issue with the Makita is 12" saws are predominately very lightweight and generally aren't very capable. They tend to make you long for a larger saw much sooner than a 14" saw.
You only need the stabilizer if you plan to make a lot of very tight contour cuts, if you only plan to make cuts larger than 1" in diameter then you will not have issues.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I inquired about the RBS350, but most likely it's not available.... I thought the Makita was 14", it has 1.2HP and about 6" of resaw and it weighs 81kg. I thought 1.2HP and 81KG was good fora saw of this size. seems the same http://www.grizzly.com/products/The-Ultimate-14-Bandsaw/G0555 how can you tell if it's 12" or 14", by the blade length?
and if I understand correctly, the wheel size makes a difference even if both machines have the same specs?

P.S
I just ordered the bandsaw book by Mark Dugniske (-:

[Van Huskey]

I inquired about the RBS350, but most likely it's not available.... I thought the Makita was 14", it has 1.2HP and about 6" of resaw and it weighs 81kg. I thought 1.2HP and 81KG was good fora saw of this size. seems the same http://www.grizzly.com/products/The-Ultimate-14-Bandsaw/G0555 how can you tell if it's 12" or 14", by the blade length?
and if I understand correctly, the wheel size makes a difference even if both machines have the same specs?

P.S
I just ordered the bandsaw book by Mark Dugniske (-:

First, I had been assuming the Makita was a 12" saw in this thread since you didn't mention it is 14" like in the other thread but I think it is a 12" saw.

1. When I looked at the pictures I "saw" a 12" BS, don't ask me to explain it though
2. I can't find anywhere they actually list the wheel size
3. The "12" in the model number probably influenced me as well
4. The blade at 88 or so inches (2240mm) is indicative of a 12" saw
5. the throat capacity at 305mm is also an indication

I may be incorrect but I think the Makita is a 12" wheeled saw, but I could be wrong.

The Grizzly G0555 is a clone of the Delta 14" cast iron spined saw, the Makita appears to be a 12" steel spined saw similar but not the same as what we have here as a Craftsman or Rikon.


Have you seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W5tiz5ygdA It appears the Makita is well made but I continue to think it is a 12" saw. Whether is will work for you is impossible for me to say.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Ok, so now I understand a little better. I have 4 more questions and than I think I'll be pretty much on track

1. what is the actual difference between a 12" ad a 14" considering they both have 6" resaw.
2. what is the actual difference between a cast Iron spined and a steel spined? or does that depend on the actual frame?
3. would you say a 14" is worth the extra case considering the 12" also has a 1.2HP motor?
4. are good 12" blades hard to get?

Thanks again Van, I saw the video... doesn't tell me much, I have 0 experience with bandsaw besides resawing with an old 36" monster.

[Van Huskey]

Ok, so now I understand a little better. I have 4 more questions and than I think I'll be pretty much on track

1. what is the actual difference between a 12" ad a 14" considering they both have 6" resaw.
2. what is the actual difference between a cast Iron spined and a steel spined? or does that depend on the actual frame?
3. would you say a 14" is worth the extra case considering the 12" also has a 1.2HP motor?
4. are good 12" blades hard to get?

Thanks again Van, I saw the video... doesn't tell me much, I have 0 experience with bandsaw besides resawing with an old 36" monster.

1. 2"...:D In theory there isn't much difference, in practice 14" saws are traditionally the place where you begin to get saws built a little heavier and are better suited to serious hobby use, at least in the US 12" saws are marketed more to the DIY user and to the hobbyist that has limited funds, limited room or is looking to add a second saw for smaller work and does not want to spend much or take up much room. Most hobbyists here think of a 12" saw as a second saw.

2. It depends on the actual saw. That question is so complex it would be impossible to answer without writing a book. Most manufacturers have moved away from cast iron in their larger saws due to cost/performance vs steel. I don't know of any cast under 14" saws being made (except a couple of niche machines), the Delta clones keep being made because for the size cast still fits a cost/performance balance.

3. First, I don't have much experience with inverter motors so I am not sure how the HP is rated on the Makita without more facts I have a feeling a 1.2 HP induction motor would be "stronger" similar to the difference between induction and universal motor HP ratings, this may NOT be the case though. In any even only you can determine value for you.

4.Quality BS blades of any length are not a problem to source HERE since most of us order them from supply houses that weld them to order from large coils of bandstock, I have no idea what the availability in Israel is like.

My bottom line to you is if you plan to add a second larger BS in the future then the Makita may well be a great value for you. If, however, you are trying to get a BS that will do most of the things you want to do for several years you may find the Makita lacking. I just wish the price for the Jet was more in line with what we pay here and I would feel comfortable saying get the Jet as it is a solid example of the Delta clone 14" saw, outside of that I must remind you I am just guessing based on what little information I can get.

[David Kumm]

Van and Mike, if you don't mind I'll step in with my two cents. In small saws 12-14" it isn't so much a steel vs cast iron issue as a cost issue. Small saws are made to a price point for primarily the hobby market. Here in the US, old Delta, Walker Turner, and Powermatic 14" saws are preferred because the build quality of older saws was better. Look for what fits your budget and spend some time tuning the saw up. Wheels should be co planar, post parrallel to the blade, etc. As long as the frame is strong enough it won't matter what the material is. When you get to 16-20" saws there are lots of differences from saw to saw and you need to research. Again, price will determine quality to some extent and Italian saws will be priced much higher and generally be a little more refined than Asian ones. Some saws are professional quality and some are little better than junk so that size range has a lot of variation in quality. Above 24" the variation narrows some but the strength of the steel frame, weight of the saw, balancing of the wheels, quality of the motor, spindle, and bearings determine the value. The old cast iron saws were the top of the food chain at 30-42 ". The real important decision is to get the right larger saw and spend time making the 14" work as well as it can given what you pay for it. Dave

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Van, I know your kind of shooting in the air but with your experience I'm learning a lot just by the directions you aim at.
I would consider the Jet if I weren't on a tight budget, however once there adding 300-400 dollers gets me a 17"-18" power record saw and that's a creep hard to resist.
since I don't have room for a big one in my current space I think I'll just go with the Makita and so be it. I'm sure it will work fine for most tasks, maybe resawing will be hard, maybe not, I might be able to go try it out. do you think I should wait to see if the D&D Delta clone is available? no responsibility on you it just an opinion.

also I have no problem ordering blades for the US, below a certain amount tax is minimal. at least I'll be able to get what you actually recommend lol.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Dave, I like your outlook, it's realistic. the most difficult part for me is finding out which saw is GOOD and which is "above carp" (lol). that's very hard for me without experience, even if I have some personal time with it, I mean, they all cut. if it cut a deadish straight line it's good enough for me, but that kind of test will be hard to do at the retailer, as it most likely won't be set up much beyond how it came out of the box. this saw will be with me for years and it will be quite a while until I can justify a large saw, so it has to be able to serve with faith.

[Jim Matthews]

Sorry I missed the location tag, first time around.

To summarize from my limited experience - wheel size translates into throat depth, larger wheels allow more material to pass between the blade and the machine's back frame.
Bigger motors are less important than sharp blades. A coarse, but very sharp blade will cut better than a fine blade that's dull.

Blades are like tennis balls - they're replaceable and the cheapest thing in use. There's no sense to setting a machine up to cut straight with a blade that's "below crap" quality.

Duginske, Bird and Fortune all stressed the same basics in setting up a saw which was repeated in my call to Louis at Iturra - set the blade to run in the center of the top wheel to track straight, set the table square to the blade. It sounds simple, but I wrestled with a poorly made blade from my local purveyor that drifted badly; the weld was kinked slightly and the blade favored the right hand side.

The blade Louis made for me does what you would expect - it cuts straight.

Is there a boat builder anywhere nearby? If so, there's undoubtedly a bandsaw under wraps in one of the shops.

[Van Huskey]

set the blade to run in the center of the top wheel to track straight, set the table square to the blade. It sounds simple, but I wrestled with a poorly made blade from my local purveyor that drifted badly; the weld was kinked slightly and the blade favored the right hand side..

FYI this only works if the saws tires are crowned, mainly smaller saws and older saws. Flat tires take an entirely different approach. Iturra is certainly the go to guy for 14" Delta saws and the clones. Iturra's Bandrunner blade is the same stock as the HIghland Woodslicer, just cheaper, you can get the same stock cheaper still from Spectrum Supply and they carry a much more complete range of band stock and their welding is excellent.

[Van Huskey]

Hi Van, I know your kind of shooting in the air but with your experience I'm learning a lot just by the directions you aim at.
I would consider the Jet if I weren't on a tight budget, however once there adding 300-400 dollers gets me a 17"-18" power record saw and that's a creep hard to resist.
since I don't have room for a big one in my current space I think I'll just go with the Makita and so be it. I'm sure it will work fine for most tasks, maybe resawing will be hard, maybe not, I might be able to go try it out. do you think I should wait to see if the D&D Delta clone is available? no responsibility on you it just an opinion.

also I have no problem ordering blades for the US, below a certain amount tax is minimal. at least I'll be able to get what you actually recommend lol.

I think the Makita would make a fine saw as long as you aknowledge the limitations, given the cost of a 14" cast saw it probably is not worth it, if nothing else the Makita will allow you to have a fine second saw once you luck out and find a great used bigger saw... :D Good luck and let us know what you think of your new saw, whatever you get. Do a review even if it isn't available in NA, you may help out someone somewhere in the old world!

[Matthew N. Masail]

I will indeed wright reviews, although I might need to settle for the Makita after all - I've just been informed I can get any Record Power saw I want, at a special price through a group membership(-:, as they are planing a large import soon.
basically it's a choice between these two
http://www.recordpower.co.uk/index.php?section=product&seq=801&cat=2&sef=LARGE BANDSAW#

http://www.recordpower.co.uk/index.php?section=product&seq=797&cat=2&sef=MID SIZED BANDSAW

[Curt Harms]

The Record BS350S looks pretty similar to the Rikon 10-32x althought the resaw capacity is less, 240 mm/9.44" vs. 13"/330 mm. I have the Rikon 10-325 and it's a good "do most things well" type saw, sort of like the Delta 14". For me, not having to deal with a riser block was worth something, and modern high end band saws (MiniMax, Aggazanni)are steel rather than cast iron. Perhaps the old saying is true when it comes to cast iron band saws "They don't make 'em like they used to".

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks, do you know where the Rikon is made?

[Van Huskey]

@ Curt, they do still make great LARGE cast iron bandsaws, reference the 36" Northfield I posted the picture of earlier in the thread, the problem is we just can't afford them. Properly outfitted that saw is north of $15,000.

@ Matthew, as was mentioned by Curt and several others the first time Record was mentioned they do look like the Rikon line, but they aren't the exact same saw as too many of the specs are different. Based on what I can see they do appear to be a nice saw. The Rikons are pacific rim saws I am not sure where the individual ones are made. Have you tried any of the UK based WWing forums, I assume they exist, to inquire about the Record, they may be able to ease your mind. As far as the two Records go I would get the 14" AKA 350mm version if possible. With the modern "Chiwan" saws it almost always seems there is a big jump in usefulness from 12" to 14".

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks, I have looked at UK forums, but not much luck, I'll continue looking but if the price on the 14" is good I'll go for it, I'll update you with my choice and of course post some comments when I get it. Thanks everyone you've been a great help, especially Van I really appreciate
it.

[thomas prusak]

A quarter will cut a quarter but not every quarter can cut quarters but all will cut corners! Sorry Van for getting off track. I really just wanted to respond to thank Van for all his time and help he is always giving so freely.