Is box elder worth the trouble?

[Pete Copeland]

A friend of my wife's gave me some medium-sized pieces of box elder recently (I didn't ask for this specifically; she's got a landscaping biz and I asked her for any wood they might come across). I've tried box elder in the past with not great results and my attempt yesterday afternoon was worse than most. The tear-out of the end grain is wicked. I've tried different tools (making sure they were sharp) and different speeds but not much seems to work. I've only been doing this a few months so my technique still needs much improvement. Is this wood only for the experienced tuner? This wood is very green. Will this get better as it dries (I doubt it)?

All of this heartache for a product that I've not regarded as really top-quality. If it was really hard to learn how to turn figured maple, I'd be ready to put in the time but I'm wondering if it's going to be worth the trouble for box elder.

Is my mistake putting any piece of box elder on my lathe or does the mistake occur afterwords?

[Roger Chandler]

Box elder maple is a fantastic wood for turning, especially if you get the red flame grain in it. A very desired wood among turners. If it is green, then you should rough turn [leaving the thickness about 1/10th the width of your bowl. Seal it with anchorseal, then wrap it in paper and put it in a paper bag for about 3 to 6 months to let it dry slowly..........return it to the lathe after drying, and finish turn it. This will help avoid cracking and give the drying will occur at a rate that is controllable.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Sounds.like it would be a great wood for just practicing your cutting technique. Instant feedback and no great loss if you get a check. Better to lose free wood than a good piece you paid for

[John Keeton]

Pete, to your original question, I would think tool presentation is probably the culprit on the tearout issue. When you say "different tools" - really the only tool needed is a good, sharp bowl gouge. It should be not just "sharp", but sharpened properly (correct grind) and must be presented to the wood correctly. You should be able to get a pretty clean cut on green box elder. For a finishing cut, you might try a shear cut with the toolrest close to the work, and the gouge tip elevated (handle down) using the swept back wing of the gouge placed on the wood at a 45* angle up and to the left. Done correctly, you should get wisps of wood removed resulting in a very nice finishing cut.

[David E Keller]

I'd imagine your tool presentation is a factor, but that'll come with practice. That skew cut with the bowl gouge is one of my 'go to' cuts for finishing especially with difficult woods. The other thought that occurred to me... Is there something bad about this wood? If the tree was removed for a reason, perhaps this particular box elder is too far gone. Photos of the tearout might be helpful. Keep trucking... It gets easier!

[Donny Lawson]

Box Elder is a fantastic wood to work with. It's best to catch it before it gets punky or too soft. The RED Flame is beautiful. Not all Box Elder has the flame. The Female Box Elder tree usually has the red bugs which will cause the red streaks. The Male trees do have bugs but in very small quanities. So if you cut into a box elder tree and find no red streaks its most likely a male tree. YES, There are male and female box elder trees.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Pete - I have turned Box Elder that was beautiful to look at but later found it to be full of wind shake (internal cracks) and it was a challenge to turn. Tear-out was never an issue with it, so I have to guess that it is your tool presentation. A few photos of the wood and your gouge tip would go a long ways in helping us offer you valuable suggestions.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree with the others that probably tool presentation and sharpness are probably the issue. A bowl gouge should be all you need with maybe a scraper for cleaning up. I have turned quite a bit of box elder/maple with very few issues of tear out. One thing that I would recommend is getting Bill Grumbines DVD Turned Bowls Made Easy and Mike Mahoney's DVD Bowl Basics. Both show presentation of the tool, cuts and are both excellent. I agree with Steve that pictures would help.

[Dick Wilson]

Pete, I have turned a lot of Box Elder, both green and dry, and have never had a problem. One of the things that comes to mind is make sure you are "turning down hill".

[Pete Copeland]

John, David, Steve,

I imagine you've diagnosed the situation correctly. Here are some pics that might help.

The first below shows the end-grain tear-out. The second shows the side grain, which is pretty good. Mind you, I ran some 60 grit paper over this after the gouge.

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The tools I have used are my EWT Easy Roughter, Easy Finisher, and my Thompson 1/2 inch V-shaped bowl gouge. Here's the gouge and my sharpening set up. I've noticed that the way I'm sharpening has produced a surface different than the way I received it (that may be part of the problem but I has this same issue with box elder end grain when the gouge was new). The holder in the Wolverine is 5.25 inches out from the sleeve.

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I feel like I'm beginning to have a reasonable understanding of how to use the gouge (but nobody who knows what they are doing has looked over my shoulder to confirm this) on other woods, but it just ain't happening here.

Don't know what else to say. Perhaps you gentlemen will know just what to say or just what to ask after seeing these pics.

Thanks very much for the help.

[tom martin]

Pete,
From the looks of the grind and your set up, I think you need to go to Doug Thompsons site and check out his recommended set up. It shows how to correctly set up the gauge. Your blank does look a little punky, but you should be able to get it using the recommendations already given. If that fails you can fortify the wood with either minwax wood hardener, thinned laquer. or some turners use thinned white glue (takes a while to dry)
Good luck.
Tom

[Dick Wilson]

Ahhh. Now that I can see the pictures a couple of things come to mind. First off, it would appear that the wood is getting a little on the punky side. You might try a 50/50 solution of shellac and alchol to soak the fibers. That will stiffen them up. Secondly, if you seem to be fighting the gouge it may be because the heal of the gouge is getting in your road while making a cut. It almost looks like you have a reverse angle on your grind. I would reset the side grinding jig to get rid of more of that heal.

[Nate Davey]

Concur with what Dick and Tom have mentioned. The Easy Rougher will leave some significant tear out.

[Dan Forman]

That appears to be a very strange grind on your gouge, leaving a very steep bevel that would make more of a scraping cut than a peeling or slicing cut, and looks to be impossible to use on the inside of a bowl, as the bevel should be going in the other direction, not projecting forward. I agree that the Thompson site is a good place to start as far a setting up your Wolverine jig. If the tree was diseased, it can make the wood rather punky, but it's hard to tell from a photo, and right now it appears as if the grind is the prime suspect.

Dan

[Scott Hackler]

Pete,

You have a MAJOR problem with the grind on that gouge. The flute angle looks to be more than 90 degrees.

http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/images/extra/Sharpening.pdf

You don't have the wing nut adjusted on the jig properly and likely the Wolverine sliding arm is going to have to be moved to a different location.

Should look something close to this:

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[David E Keller]

I agree with all that's been said so far... I also noticed the amount of gouge protruding from the varigrind seems to be insufficient. I use the depth of the pocket on the sliding arm set to the heel of my gouge. I believe the manual recommends using a block drilled to a predetermined depth(2"?). I noticed JK mentioned that he drilled a blind hole in the side of his bench top for setting the gouge. Essentially, I leave my varigrind angle set at the same setting that's shown on Doug's site. I have the tool protruding from the varigrind a constant distance. Once the tool is in the jig, I adjust the sliding arm in or out to match the bevel on my tool. Once you get this gouge fixed, the process I just mentioned will allow you to reshapen without altering the bevel.

[John Keeton]

You have the wrong setting on the Vari-Grind jig and that is what is creating the horribly wrong grind on the gouge. That needs to be fixed before going further.

I will add to what Keller said on the Vari-Grind jig. Once set, never change it. I use the same Vari-Grind setting as shown in my pic for ALL my gouges - bowl and spindle. The 2" setting for the amount of tool exposed beyond the jig is constant for all tools. The only variable is the distance the arm is set from the wheel - that determines the angle of the grind.

In addition to the excellent instructions on Doug's site, there are a couple of videos on YouTube by OneWay on using the Wolverine setup.

[robert baccus]

All the previous is really good advice. let me qualify mine. in oct. i roughed out about 1000# of red box elder into pueblo vases and bowls(to 30" dia.) the sap made me sick as a dog but the dust from finishing them out is not bothering me. Wierd. green wood should cut like frozen butter but BE. dry is like any other weak, light,soft wood. it tears easily. everyone above has their favorite finishing trick--this is mine. i sharpen a 3/8" thompson to a 45deg nose and nose cut at fairly high RPM slowly, letting the tool set the pace. i have very little tearout. the worst of it gets a heavy shot of sanding sealer and i try to time the cut to when it is 2/3 dry. it can be the plainest of woods and the most spectacular too.---------old forester PS then you go to the 60 grit gouge.

[Michelle Rich]

check out Craft Supplies in Utah..they have set up tools to help you set your grinder.