Need a Hand: Cutting Board Failure

[Brody Goodwine]

Well, I just presented my first cutting board to my mother, only to have it severely warp and split 4 hours later after being wiped down with a wet towel. The board is end grain walnut and hard maple. Glue was titebond 3. Finish was 3 coats of general finishes poly acrylic with sanding between coats.

I suspect some water still penetrated the finish based upon the slowish drying. It has feet and was not laid in water. I feel like there must have been some major internal streeses based upon the severity of the split. Any ideas what exactly caused the split?

[Brody Goodwine]

Finished
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/BQuicksilver/7246d088.jpg

Split
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/BQuicksilver/d231ac1d.jpg

Turned as Well
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/BQuicksilver/3ec5a416.jpg

[Ted Calver]

Brody, No expert, but I think the poly is a film forming finish and your suspicions are right. For cutting boards a penetrating finish like mineral or walnut oil, or butcher block oil is better and keeps water from getting wicked up by the end grain. If all your stock was dry and straight from the beginning and your glue was from a fresh batch, water penetrating a surface finish might be the culprit.

[Brian Kent]

I agree with Ted. Mineral oil soaked in many times is the finish for a cutting board.

[Todd Burch]

From what it looks like, the end grain wicked up the water (probably just like it wicked up the finish), expanded, and POP goes the glue joint.

I would not have used poly acrylic, but mineral oil only.

Does the split glue joint appear to be starved for glue? Were any surfaces in the split joint void of dried glue?

Next time... you can glue in some some hidden splines/loose tenons between each block and around the interior of the outer perimeter. Sorry this one split. Your next one will be better, I'm certain.

This one is probably still fixable. Before I did anything with this one, I would give it the "smoke test" and slam it down on a hard surface, flat, to see what else might be thinking about letting go.

To fix, break the joint the rest of the way, let it dry, clean up the joint, mortise for a spline on both halves (just shy of each end, so it will be hidden), make a spline to fit, and re-glue with spline. Sand, and liberally oil both sides, several times, until it won't soak up any more oil.

Todd

[Bud Millis]

Having made several thousand boards over the last 20 yrs, here's my thoughts:

1. glue failure
2. On the very first picture, there looks to be a half dozen gaps in the maple. That can allow moisture, etc to get into the board - not good.
3. Grain orientation - might be an issue - hard to tell from the photos - walnut on the sides doesn't look to match the maple.
4. (side view) Maybe its just the picture, but the board doesn't look to be of equal thickness.
5. Was the board left to soak in H2O?
6. I only use Titebond 1 or Elmer's
7. Never use poly acrylic (flakes, won't hold up, food safe??) or walnut oil (turns rancid on board over time). I only use Salad bowl oil finish (rarely) that's d/t the fact that it coats the wood and when used as a cutting/chopping surface it flakes off. The best is mineral oil and bees wax heated up and applied. It gives a great finish, easy to maintain, the heated oil soaks deeper into the wood and the wax helps to fill any voids and won't promote bacterial growth.

Repair -
1. let it dry good
2. rip a hair off each side (square table saw blade + a good blade = good glue joint)
3. use the glue(s) I stated and glue both sides
4. clamp well - allow to dry overnight
(if those are gaps in the board, use 12 hour epoxy, and maple dust to it and fill the holes. you may have to add to it a couple of times, as 12 hr epoxy is thin and will run into the gaps. which is what we want)
5. clean up glue joint
6. sand entire board - rid yourself of the poly crap (its my opinion and I feel there are a lot better, more natural, safer products available which will produce the same if not better results)
7. mineral oil + bees wax (60/40) heat on stove till its in liquid form and apply. just slop it on, its cheap. about an hour later I may apply a second coat if it looks like it sucked it up. let dry 6 hrs/overnight and buff with clean dry cloth. DO ALL sides

depending on use, reapply mineral oil + bees wax on a prn basis.

NEVER allow a board to soak in H2O, or enter into the dishwasher.

[geoff wood]

i think it has nothing to do with what finish you used. maple moves a lot more than walnut does, if walnut was the inside wood then you might not have had a failure so quickly. it looks like the grain of the walnut isnt parallel to the edge of the board, rather its dying into the corners. risky when it comes to wood movement.

[Art Mulder]

For cutting boards a penetrating finish like mineral or walnut oil, or butcher block oil is better

Or no finish at all.

For a working cutting board, I'm in the "no finish at all" camp.


Well, I just presented my first cutting board to my mother, only to have it severely warp and split 4 hours later after being wiped down with a wet towel.

You've already been well guided. Are you 100% sure it was only wiped with the towel, and not left to soak in it? I only ask because the 2nd photo looks VERY different in terms of the finish.

Call it a learning experience and try again.

[Brody Goodwine]

Thanks everyone for the forensic work. I would like to save this one. It is back home and has markedly flattened with drying. The crack is also about 50% of what is shown in the pics now.

Finish: I didn't choose mineral oil mainly bc it darkened the board so much. My mother even noted after it cracked that she still wanted it refinished with something that wouldn't make it dark. Who am I to argue? I tested min oil (too dark), salad bowl finish (flakes when cut and dark), and poly (neither issue). I thought poly would provide a superior seal as well? Am i mistaken there? Could the end grain just have needed more coats, or would no number of coats seal the board?

The board did have some fine gaps in the Maple, which i later filled. The glue joint also looked a bit dry despite feeling like I was liberal with it during assembly. Both likely played a part.

Besides the finish, my other big question was grain orientation. All grain (maple and walnut) was oriented the same. Does that improve or decrease dimensional stability? The amount of twist was impressive, and I wasn't sure if there was a layout error.

[Ray Chalenski]

Nice idea for the cutting board.You got some great advice from others.Any cutting board I make I'll treat with mineral oil. The only other observation I can make is I've used titebond 3 on several occasions and was never happy with the results.Always had a failure. Went back to titebond 2 and never looked back.

[Todd Burch]

Paint some poly on a piece of glass. Let it dry. Chip it off and offer some to your mom and you both sit down and eat the chips.

If you don't want to do this, don't coat the cutting board with poly. Get over the darkening of the wood. I mean, seriously, how dark does Maple get with clear oil on it? Face grain would not get as dark, because it won't soak up as much oil as end grain.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

Brody, you actually don't want a "seal" on this kind of project which is why folks are saying not to use a film finish. It needs to breath. Mineral oil is generally the product of choice for this application with many folks also opting for a combination of melted paraffin and mineral oil.

That said, Geoff makes an excellent point about the potential incompatibility of species when it comes to wood movement. Maple moves a lot seasonally, not to mention with the artificial moisture environment you find with kitchen use.

[Ted Calver]

I thought poly would provide a superior seal as well? Am i mistaken there? Could the end grain just have needed more coats, or would no number of coats seal the board?

Sure, poly will seal the board. Probably 5-8 coats of wipe on would do the trick. Then your mom could prop it up against the back splash and brag to her friends on your wood skills--she just couldn't use it as a cutting board. It might last a few times slicing a loaf of fresh bread, then the poly film would get sliced and when the board got washed water would get behind the film and soon it would look yucky. Then you could refinish it again. Groundhog day style :)

[ian maybury]

Did it by any chance take a trip through a dish washer? The whitish look is very like what they often produce on wooden parts. No expert, and based solely on casual observation - but there's little or nothing wood that will survive that....

ian

[Howard Acheson]

You have at least two problems. First, your construction method created a cross grain situation. The long blocks at the end that span two blocks caused the warp as soon as it got wet. ALL blocks need to be the same size to insure that unequal stresses are not created when the board reacts to moisture.

Second, you never want to use a film finish on a butcher block construction. That will create uneven absorption of moisture resulting in uneven expansion/contraction. No finish will prevent the absorption of water or water vapor--it only slows it down somewhat.


An excellent treatment for wooden food preparation surfaces like cutting boards and butcher blocks is a mixture of mineral oil and either paraffin or beeswax. This is what is used on many commercial wood surfaces. It will last longer and be more protective than just mineral oil. Mineral oil can be found in most supermarkets in the pharmacy section or in a true pharmacy. Paraffin is found in the canning section of the store or in a hardware store.

Heat the oil in a double boiler and shave in some wax. The exact proportions are not critical--a 5-6 parts of oil to one part of wax will work fine. Stir the mixture until all the wax is liquefied. Apply the mixture heavily and let it set 10-12 hours or overnight. Next day do it again and continue until the wood will no longer absorb the finish. Let it set for 10-12 hours and then lightly scrape off any excess. Then buff it with a rag.

Reapply whenever the wood begins to look dry.

Never put a wood board in the dishwasher and don't soak it in dishwater for long periods.

There is probably nothing that can be done to save the board at this point.

[John Nesmith]

I agree with Howie on the mineral oil-gulf wax finish. In fact, I learned it from him. (Thanks Howie). I keep a canning jar of the mixture. I heat it up in the microwave when I want to refinish. I take my boards out on the deck and slather on the warm oil-wax mixture, and let them sit overnight. Wipe them down in the morning, and they are back in action.

[Brody Goodwine]

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply.

Re: Construction

Ray, I used titebond 3 because it claims to be waterproof, but I appreciate the anecdotal evidence for titebond 2. Poor glue-up was likely also a factor, as I am just starting...but that doesn't explain the twist.

Howard, I am very interested in your reply. Can you further explain the cross grain issue? I want to fix this, but if there is a major construction flaw I'd like to know now before going through this repeatedly. All blocks are the same size except the walnut on the sides being 1/2 the size of the other blocks. Clearly moisture was unevenly absorbed, but why would film finish cause this if the board was not cut on? I disagree that no finish will prevent water absorption.


Re: Finishes

Todd, I don't mind eating some *cured* poly. Your body won't digest it. Consider it fiber along with the sand you eat at Taco Bell. That said the amount of poly that would be transferred by flaking, then to food, then staying with food to your mouth would be exceedingly low. I didn't ask a doctor about all this, but I did go to medical school. To quote "understanding wood finishes" by Bob Flexner, "all finishes are safe to eat off of or be chewed on once fully cured"...if you want to hear it from a woodworker. (pg76) Mom wants it lighter colored. Her opinion is important to me. I would like to refinish it with something that could retain the natural color. I do feel it needs some finish given the small gaps and end grain.

Jim, why wouldn't you want a seal? I'm not debating since I trust your advice, but it seems the ideal would be a fully sealed piece. I have the combo min oil/wax product, but it made the wood too dark.

Ted, I know you're kidding, but i bet it sees more backsplash and brag than actual use. She's a proud mother. I like Groundhog Day:)

Ian, no dishwasher, just a warm wipe down.

[Matt Meiser]

You don't want to seal it because that seal is never going to hold up to use and as soon as its damaged and washed, its going to pick up water, but not release that water easily. Not to mention that a cut-up film surface is going to look bad.

[Bill Orbine]

Looks like bad glue joint to me. One or more of the following: Either glue is old, the temperature at time of glue up too cold, the pieces poorly fitted, wood not clean and bare (free of finishes and contaminates). Even the wood should be properly seasoned to minimize wood movement and improve adhesion. Proerly done, the the glue joint is stronger than the wood and you would see more wood split rather than glue joint failure. I've had a couple cutting boards 30 years and I used white glue... still holds strong. By the way, aside form the issue you have at hand, I'm wouldn't have used polycrylic for a finish. Mineral oil is my choice though I'm interested on Howie's post about using wax.

[Todd Burch]

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply.
...
Todd, I don't mind eating some *cured* poly. Your body won't digest it. Consider it fiber along with the sand you eat at Taco Bell. That said the amount of poly that would be transferred by flaking, then to food, then staying with food to your mouth would be exceedingly low. I didn't ask a doctor about all this, but I did go to medical school. To quote "understanding wood finishes" by Bob Flexner, "all finishes are safe to eat off of or be chewed on once fully cured"...if you want to hear it from a woodworker. (pg76) Mom wants it lighter colored. Her opinion is important to me. I would like to refinish it with something that could retain the natural color. I do feel it needs some finish given the small gaps and end grain.
...

Well, you are correct - Bob says you can eat it.

Todd

[Matt Day]

The twist is likely could be due to uneven moisture contents, which is likely further affected by the poly. My cutting boards cup/crown quite a bit if only one side gets wet, then even outs when either it dries or I wet the other side.

I understand your mother would like the finish to be clear, but mineral oil is the tried and true way to finish a cutting board.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> I disagree that no finish will prevent water absorption.

It's true. Buy yourself a copy of Hoadley's Understanding Wood or go to the US Forest Service's Wood Handbook. Either will list the finishes in order of permeability of the finish. Short of encasing the whole board in a thick coating of paraffin or encapsulating it in a thick coating of epoxy, no finish will prevent water vapor transmission for longer than 24 hours. For example, waterborne film finishes are less water resistant than oil based finishes. That's not to suggest using an oil based film finish. No film finish should ever be used on a working cutting board.

The problem with trying to save the board is the finish you applied. That finish will have been absorbed into the surface of the board. Sanding or scraping will not remove the deeply absorbed waterborne finish. Because of the residual finish, an oil or oil/wax treatment will not be properly or evenly absorbed. Any subsequent wetting will likely cause a re-occurrence of the warping and/or other damage.

[Ron Kellison]

If you decide to stay with the poly finish you should be prepared to sand and refinish the cutting board at frequent intervals, and I suspect reglueing will also be needed from time to time. You not only have the walnut and maple expanding/contracting at different rates but you also have coated them with a finish that dries very hard and inflexible. Something has to give and I suspect it will be the wood. This link discusses one of the effects of mixing maple and WB poly: http://www.buildinggreen.com/live/index.cfm/2011/9/8/WaterBased-Polyurethanes-and-Panelization-of-Athletic-Floors

Regards,

Ron

[Bud Millis]

Brody -

Trust me, stick with (no pun intended) Elmer's White Glue or Titebond Original glues. Those 2 glues will do 98% of all your woodworking.

Mom wants a clear finish - melt beeswax and add very little mineral oil to act as a carrier and to help suck it into the pores. It will give you little "shading". Sell mom on that and the health benefits of maintaining a safe cutting board. Even clear polys, shellac, etc will tint the wood.

[Brian Penning]

For a few years now I've been applying diluted varnish....yep varnish.
It's been great. (try wrapping a cutting board finished with mineral oil...lol)

See Wood Whisper's article on it http://thewoodwhisperer.com/cutting-board-finish/

I believe he got the info from Bob Flexner....paraphrased here...
“No myth in wood finishing is more ingrained in the psyche of woodworkers than the belief that oil and varnish finishes containing metallic driers are unsafe to eat off of, or to be chewed by children. . . . Salad bowl finsih is Varnish!. . . they contain the same driers as the oils and varnishes woodworkers are told to shy away from. . . in fact all finishes are safe to ear off of or to be chewed once the finish has fully cured. . . the rule of thumb is 30 days.”
The clincher was an FDA excerpt on the same page of Flexner’s book. I understand that the FDA evolves and is quite often wrong as time passes, but they are about as accurate as can be with the knowledge known at any given time. It stated:
“The FDA lists that all common driers are safe for food contact as long as the finish is made properly – that is, as long as the finish cures.”
Flexner states that in his many years, he has never heard of an account in which a cured clear finish has been reported as having caused a health issue in adults or children.

[Ben Hatcher]

Did your pieces fit together snugly when you did your dry fit, or did you need to coax them together with clamps? I found that if you have to draw the joint together you end up applying too much clamping pressure and squeeze out all of the glue from the joint. The result is exactly what you see, the joint springs back.

As for the finish, if she's so concerned about the color, don't put anything on it and call it a bread board. No film finish can stand up to a knife. All of those little cuts will allow water to soak in behind the finish which will cause it to flake and look bad.

[Jeff Duncan]

As others have pretty much covered, you first need to decide on whether or not the board will be used or displayed before choosing your finish again. If it's going to be used then the many reason for avoiding a plastic finish have already been mentioned, so don't be surprised when it fails again.

As for the construction I see several things that may cause you problems. First off your using a rectangular block vs a square block. The rectangular block will allow more movement vs square blocks. So if the wood changes mc quickly, your likelihood for failure is greater. Second your grain is all facing the same direction, while pleasing to the eye it's not necessarily good technique. Having the grain running in the same direction exaggerates the movement of the wood vs having the pieces flipped.

I disagree with the others that suggested glue failure. Glue failure would not cause the pieces to separate. This failure is due to the construction and no glue will keep it together if it's not constructed right to begin with. My suggestion would be to follow age old techniques that have been proven successful over generations. Make up your board out of square blocks with grain positioned randomly. You may still be able to get away with banding in a different wood if the blocks are the same size and have similar movement. Then use an oil type finish as already suggested. Or you could build it the same way and expect different results.....but why waste time building something to fail?

good luck,
JeffD

[Brody Goodwine]

Again thanks to everyone!

Matt M., that makes sense. The only issue here is that the board was not cut on at all. She opened it, used it as a serving platter (you can see grease absorption from cold cuts), then it broke right after cleanup. Shouldn't the poly have sealed the board well for this use? I understand cutting allowing water past, but water clearly entered without cutting. I brushed on 3 coats of poly with a foam brush. I test cut on the poly..it actually didn't look bad (no white flaking, just a dark scar).

Matt D., I think you're right. When wet the board did appear to have a very uneven water penetration. That likely explains a lot.

Ron, I'm not sure if panelization played in here or not, or if it would be an issue with this application. Great link either way!

Howard, i was just replying to your blanket statement thinking of epoxy and boat finishes. Back to this board, I would certainly have expected 3 coats of water based poly to seal out water from a quick rinse off? Would you expect such immediate and severe absorption? I feel as though I surely sealed the board well enough to withstand the use it saw that one night it lived? I bet you're correct re: saving the board. Would i be best served recoating with poly and calling it a "serving board" never to be used for cutting? I think mom would be pretty happy with that...which is the real goal here.

Bill, my titebond 3 is a couple years old. Is it past it's prime?

Bud, I may try the wax with minimal oil trick if I repair it. Mom will buy anything I sell, so I just want to do good work that satisfies me.

Brian, bingo!

Ben, I suspect some coaxing and old glue. I went out and grabbed a new DW717 to keep my world a little more square. That said I did this board with cheap Irwin quick clamps, not the Besseys I have purchased since.

[john bateman]

Again thanks to everyone!

Matt M., that makes sense. The only issue here is that the board was not cut on at all. She opened it, used it as a serving platter (you can see grease absorption from cold cuts), then it broke right after cleanup. Shouldn't the poly have sealed the board well for this use? I understand cutting allowing water past, but water clearly entered without cutting. I brushed on 3 coats of poly with a foam brush. I test cut on the poly..it actually didn't look bad (no white flaking, just a dark scar).

Matt D., I think you're right. When wet the board did appear to have a very uneven water penetration. That likely explains a lot.

Ron, I'm not sure if panelization played in here or not, or if it would be an issue with this application. Great link either way!

Howard, i was just replying to your blanket statement thinking of epoxy and boat finishes. Back to this board, I would certainly have expected 3 coats of water based poly to seal out water from a quick rinse off? Would you expect such immediate and severe absorption? I feel as though I surely sealed the board well enough to withstand the use it saw that one night it lived? I bet you're correct re: saving the board. Would i be best served recoating with poly and calling it a "serving board" never to be used for cutting? I think mom would be pretty happy with that...which is the real goal here.

Bill, my titebond 3 is a couple years old. Is it past it's prime?

Bud, I may try the wax with minimal oil trick if I repair it. Mom will buy anything I sell, so I just want to do good work that satisfies me.

Brian, bingo!

Ben, I suspect some coaxing and old glue. I went out and grabbed a new DW717 to keep my world a little more square. That said I did this board with cheap Irwin quick clamps, not the Besseys I have purchased since.

From the manufacturer.
"The minimum shelf life of Titebond III is stated as one year, when stored appropriately at room temperature. Titebond III is expected to last beyond its stated shelf life"

3 years was probably pushing it.
http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx

[Jeff Duncan]

How long between finishing and use? Finishes, especially water based one's, require time to cure. With water based finishes I'd wait a good 4-6 weeks before subjecting to a warm water washing. If finished on colder climates even longer.

JeffD

[Howard Acheson]

How long between finishing and use? Finishes, especially water based one's, require time to cure. With water based finishes I'd wait a good 4-6 weeks before subjecting to a warm water washing. If finished on colder climates even longer.

JeffD

In addition to your points, I wonder what the environmental conditions were where the board was made and finished. A significant change in temperature and humidity between the area where the board was made and finished and the kitchen where it was used can be a partial contributing factor to the problem. In general I've always allowed something like a cutting board to rest in the area where it will be used for 4-6 weeks.

[Bill Orbine]

[Bill, my titebond 3 is a couple years old. Is it past it's prime?

I would say so! Did you test the glue on large scraps? Glue two piece together and after cured 24 hours, break 'em apart. Wood should splinter and not a clean separation of the glue joint.

[David Winer]

This thread has produced a number of suggested techniques for cutting board finishes, but so far no one has mentioned the one I have used for many years with zero problems. All my end grain projects have been finished initially with WATCO penetrating oil. Some (not cutting boards) have been afterward coated with clear hard finishes, e.g., varnishes.

I recall reading about this product when I first started using it in the 70s. Watco was said to soak in to the wood fibers and "polymerize" into a hard finish, becoming part of the fibers. The instruction noted that after the polymerization was complete there would be nothing left of a toxic nature. Like other oil finishes, Watco deepens the color of the wood figure.

As for glue, I have successfully used Titebond I and II. It's alarming to read in this thread that Titebond III is questionable for use in cutting boards. I recently made a couple of such gifts with Titebond III and now have to be concerned that they might not hold up. The water resistance of III seemed like a good idea. Arrrgh.

[Pat Barry]

Watco penetrating oil is not recommended for cutting boards. They do make a special product called Watco Butcher Block finish that meets FDA requirements for food contact.

[David Winer]

Watco penetrating oil is not recommended for cutting boards. They do make a special product called Watco Butcher Block finish that meets FDA requirements for food contact.

After reading this comment, I did a fast Google search on the subject of Watco and food safety. I found plenty of reassurance that cured Watco is not toxic for food-contact items. The following cut/paste is from a forum and seems to me good guidance.

I called the 800 number on the can and spoke to the technicians and they assured me that when fully cured the finish is non-toxic. On the can it reads ready for use in 8 to 10 hours, reading further it says if you wish to apply an optional topcoat wait 72 hours. To me that means it's not fully cured until 72 hours. To be on safe side wait until all of the heavy aroma is gone and then some.

[Pat Barry]

I looked on the Watco website and the MSDS for the material has several hazard concerns including ingestion. I suspect the levels you would see transferred to food from a cutting board is very small but this would not be an approved surface finish for a commercial manufacturer.

[Dan Hahr]

I'll echo the sentiment regarding poly. Not right for this at all, regardless of what your Mom likes. But after seeing the gaps and reading your comment about not using the proper clamps, I'd say your problem was mainly an improper gluing/clamping process. With cuts that are not perfect, all these add up to glue failure. Also, if the temps were not balanced, and well above 45F, TBIII will fail easily. If one joint failed, I woun't trust the rest. Take the time and do the next one right following the good advice above.

Good luck, Dan

[Greg Bender]

I've made a lot of boards successfully and I'm very happy with the results over the years.That said ,the recomendations are all right on the mark,especially the mineral oil and beeswax. I use salad bowl finish for the boards that will be used for serving trays. I do use TB 3 and have never had a problem but will add that you should always shake it up before use.And after 1 year throw any glue out,the stuff is not that expensive to end up wasteing all your effort. Also, get some 3/4 " bar clamps ,there effective and cheap.
Greg

[Bud Millis]

For years and still to this date if I'm making a large batch of cutting boards and running short on clamps I'll still use clamps like these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-bar-clamp-96214.html


Out of several thousand cutting boards over 25+ yrs not one failure. The big thing to remember is not to over tighten and squeeze the glue out. I always start in the middle and work my way out. Also when doing end grain, pay attention to the way the grain runs. Especially on different types of woods. The other things I haven't seen mentioned yet: 1. is to glue both sides 2. I glue up each piece in the row and let them dry (doing this for each row) 3. then I glue up all the rows into one board.

You didn't say how you went about gluing this up. But there was a failure some where. Usually the glue joint is stronger than the wood and the wood itself would split. With the split on the seem there was stress from some where, or glue failure (having never used TB3 IDK)

The other thing you mentioned was the foam brush used for the application of the poly. Myself, the 10 lb box of rags (t-shirt type material) that you can get at your local home center is all I use. Dunk it in the hot oil/beeswax and SLOP it on the wood. Very important for end grain as it will suck it right in. The heat opens the pores of the wood and allows it to get sucked in deeper than it wood if it was cold.

Brody, look at it this way, you didn't make a mistake you a a learning experience. That's how we grow as woodworkers.
Two things still bother me and I just need to know. Is the board still the way it is in the pictures or have you repaired it? If its still the way it is in the pictures can you do us a favor? Take a picture from the end like you did before this time with a measuring device on each side (I swear that one side is a about a 1/4" thinner) & mark it and finish splitting it apart, submitting pictures of both halves of the glue joint. From what I can see in the picture, that looks to be a clean break and no splintering of the wood. Which would indicate that there wasn't enough glue or to much got squeezed out.

PS Buck the TB3 trend. Once you go Elmer's White or TB1 you'll never go back.

[Brody Goodwine]

Well, the board was laid in the garage for 10 days or so now. Guess what? The gap has completely closed, though it still has about 1/8" of bow. Of course the issue now is I'll have to pry it open to get glue in. I think that proves that water intrusion likely was the main issue based upon this. I'm sure the weakest glue joint just couldn't hang on.

My TB3 is gone. Too old, thanks for the advice there.

JeffD, I only waited 2 days for the finish to cure. Are you certain the curing is that slow? Flexner's book and the label would lead me to believe it is a matter of hours for water based poly to cure.

Howard, the board was made in a 65 degree garage and used in a 75 degree kitchen. Don't know the humidity of each, but I assume the warm rinse was the real humidity issue.

JeffD, thanks for the detailed reply. I think the future use is a big debate for me. I'll add a post with pic below. Rectangle blocks and orientation were both chosen for asthetics as you noted. Do you think rectangular blocks with random orientation would hold up? I planned to make one for my wife, but wanted to figure out what I did wrong before board 2.

Greg, I took out a second mortgage and purchased a set of Bessey parallel bar clamps. Clamping will be easier now.

Bud, I have lots of those HF clamps and still don't mind using them. Not Besseys, but they work. I did glue both sides exactly as you described. I think after reading here the bard had severe water intrusion and movement combined with old TB3. I did apply the poly when cool (60-65ish). i'll take your advice and use rags and crank up the garage heater.

I agree Bud, this was a huge learning experience. I may have made just about all the mistakes at once. :) The board gap has closed, but I assure you it was equal thickness and flat. I even ran it through the planer (another mistake) once i was done. You'll note the 1/2 blocks on the end are really 1/3 blocks after the planer chopped them apart.

[Brody Goodwine]

This is the board today. My big concern is what to do with it. I can use mineral oil but feel it will absorb unevenly bc the poly. I can add more poly (and use it as a serving platter) but how do I get the oil stains from the lunch meats out?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/BQuicksilver/c006cdaa-1.jpg

[John Lanciani]

Easiest thing to do would be to run it through a wide drum/belt sander. If we knew where you were someone would likey volunteer to help (I would certainly do it if you're nearby).

[Brody Goodwine]

Good idea John!

I'm in Indianapolis. I'll update my profile.

[Bud Millis]

Brody said "Well, the board was laid in the garage for 10 days or so now. Guess what? The gap has completely closed, though it still has about 1/8" of bow. Of course the issue now is I'll have to pry it open to get glue in. I think that proves that water intrusion likely was the main issue based upon this. I'm sure the weakest glue joint just couldn't hang on."

I'd bring that in the house, weigh it and let it dry in the house. Re-weighing it every couple of days. The bulk of the water maybe out, however there maybe more in there. Puzzling why it cupped the way it did and still is. I don't think the 10' from the kitchen to the garage had anything to do with it.

Was this wood AD or KD? In the picture posted today, was the split at the top right or lower left of the board? If at the lower left, when it took on water then the growth rings were the stressor. The maple rings all curve in the same direction. I thought the narrow walnut pcs on the side was by design. Whats the approx size on thus puppy? Overall, maple blocks, & walnut blocks. Friday night maybe I'll waste some time and make one. God knows I got enough maple and walnut.

To get the oil out, drum, belt or orbit sand with 36/60 grit and work up. Depending on how I feel (or the purpose) I go to 150-220 grit.

[Brody Goodwine]

I agree it still may have some moisture in it Bud. I suspect the cupping will continue to decrease as well.

Bud, I really don't know. It was purchased from the local wood retailer (Northwest Lumber), cut, and assembled. I took no special effort to dry things.

Split in today's pic is top right, second row down. Can you explain why the growths rings would be a stressor only in that area? I don't know how they affect the piece. Narrow walnut was by design, but the planer mistake made them a little more narrow since I had to rip about 1/4" off each side. Approx size is 12x16.

I'd like to see you make one with the rectangular blocks and orient the grain the same way, but with fresh glue and likely better overall construction. Then get it wet. :)

[Brody Goodwine]

Finally had the guts to split it. You guys tell me, but it does look a bit dry. The portion that split first (right in the pic above) is at the bottom here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/BQuicksilver/46807f26.jpg

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, finishes take much longer to fully cure than to dry to the touch. Oil based Poly for instance dries to the touch on the surface of the coating while the finish below dries much slower. Water based finishes dry a little differently, but remember they also allow much easier moisture exchange than oil or solvent based, even when fully cured! For water based finishes take a look over at the Target finishing site. They have a lot of great information much of which will translate to other water based finishes.

There is a lot of information that can get confusing regarding dry/cure times. Many books, (including Flexner's) say to wait several weeks or a month before rubbing out a finish. The reason I use rubbing out as an example is b/c the finish needs to be fully cured for it to be done properly. So while you may see different information regarding different drying and curing times, this seems to be a pretty standard timeline for full cure. I'd go back through your Flexner book to see, he's forgotten much more about finishing than I'll ever know:confused:

One thing is pretty much a safe bet, any finish you buy off the shelf will need more than 48 hours before exposing to moisture;)

When you split the block did it split the actual glue line? Or did it split the wood along the glue line? If it split the glue line itself, bad glue! If it split the wood along the glue line then it was the wood movement causing the problem.

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

As far as the grain orientation goes, I'd still be worried. Here's the thing though, you already have the block mostly made. I would clean up the edges along the split and glue back together with a fresh batch of glue. Then ideally I'd leave it in the house for a week or so to acclimate to a similar moisture level to what it will be used in. After which hopefully someone will volunteer their wide belt or drum sander for you to use as it will allow you to sand right through those stains quickly and get the block nice and flat again.

If you choose to finish with water based again be sure to finish in as ideal conditions as possible, i.e. keep it warm! 65 degrees is OK, but it won't hurt to brink the heat up a little either. Then let it cure for a good month before exposing to warm water. With an oil based poly or solvent finish it will resist water much quicker. And just to emphasize, you don't want that block to stay wet for any length of time with a water based finish on it. If you need to clean it do so then dry right away. FWIW I used one of the toughest water based finishes available to spray my mahogany c-top at home....with a farmers sink:eek: So I have a little experience with water based and how they hold up, and what they're vulnerabilities are;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Brody Goodwine]

Jeff, it split the glue line over the maple and then split the walnut, not the glue line at the end. I had Flexner's book out at the gym today. I'll be 100% certain before any more finish work. :)

[Jeff Mohr]

An interesting thing about the finish suggestions is the lack of true evidence. As a scientist by trade, I find it very interesting there have been no specific studies on the effect of chips from curing finishes or any of that type of finish but there are several recommendations that it is "safe" to ingest. To be fair, I am sure there are not many specific tests on mineral oil either. What I do know, however, is one type of finish (mineral oil) is sold as a laxative that one ingests while the other is not sold as an ingestible substance and in its current state is deemed harmful and only after it "cures" is it supposedly "okay" to eat.

I think the clear winner for my boards is the mineral oil.

[Myk Rian]

Don't worry, Mom still loves you.

[Greg Peterson]

Brody - beautiful cutting board.

I would consider the failure of this board catastrophic if indeed all it saw was a damp wipe down. Obviously the poly was inadequate and I'm not sure more of the same is going to produce the desired result.

Sometimes a client (including mothers) want something that simply is not in their best interest or possible for that matter.

Mineral oil and bees wax is the standard finish on end grain because it works. You might consider woods that share similar expansion/contraction properties.

The first picture looks like there are gaps in some of the maple joints. This indicates the wood was not milled to close enough tolerances. I would not try to salvage this board as the wood has absorb some of the poly and it appears the pieces are not milled accurately enough.

End grain cutting boards are a tough project because they require a high degree of accuracy. The slightest offset in size or square quickly gets magnified, not to mention weakens the integrity of the unit.

Consider the lessons learned and start a new one from scratch paying particular attention to milling, glue and finish.

[Dennis Lopeman]

Thanks everyone. I too have learned a lot here. I used TiteBond 3... and it's old. It's still very strong and I have done test after test with it on my cabinet raised panels. I break the cut-offs and try to break at the glue line (usually as a demonstration to friends) and it almost never broke the glue - it broke the wood (cherry in this case). I am currently building a butcher block and will post in a separate thread (so as not to hijack this one!!) to get some valuable opinions.

But thanks again for helping this guy out. I will be applying some new knowledge to my current build.

[Jeff Duncan]

MY personal opinion is that glue is cheap....if your titebond is more than a year old you can pick up a fresh bottle of TB1 for about $5.....a little more for the other flavors. Why risk failure for what's essentially 2 cups of coffee at the donut shop? Also I wouldn't go soley by your breaking the off-cut test. Sure the glue may be fine, or maybe not. Maybe it's holding well now but doesn't hold up over time? I just see no reason to risk a project which will likely cost a lot more than $5 to replace;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Dennis Lopeman]

Understood. I bought this GALLON ($32 or lots of coffee) when I didn't realize glue had an expiration date. I will now buy it in smaller quantities. If I learn later that my glue joints are failing, I will also try using TB 1 or 2 or some elmers white... It seems the school of woodworking can carry on indefinitely!! :) I have no problems with that.

Unfortunately for me... I'm a little "after-the-fact" here (as is our thread owner here!) and will just have to watch and learn and chalk it up to the school of hard knocks!!! Fingers crossed that I don't get caught cutting class...... Tuition and Supplies sure can be expensive!!!