Refrigerator / Freezer Problem

[Greg Peterson]

Kenmore fridge, freezer on top, no ice maker or other do-dads, about 13 years old.

Recently I noticed water on the top shelf in the frig. There are two square holes in the roof of the frig compartment where the water is dripping from.

The frig seems be maintaining its temperature but the freezer is not as cold as it should be. Ice cubes are still frozen but my gel packs for icing sore joints are not getting anywhere near as cold as they use to.

Any thoughts or web sites to visit?

[Joe Pelonio]

May be defrosting too frequently. How long since you vacuumed out the coils? A lot of dust there can cause it to run too often and then defrost more, which also makes the electric use higher. On ours the area that needs cleaning is under the bottom, behind a removable panel in front.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Greg,

Is it a "frost-free" refrigerator/freezer?

Often what "frost-free" refrigerators use is a small timing motor and switch assembly to automatically defrost the freezer. In the ones with an icemaker, some Kenmores used the icemaker motor with a series of gears to automatically close the switch and engage the heater coils around the freezer to defrost the freezer. I suspect the non-icemaker types might use a motor/gear/switch assembly to do the same thing. If the motor fails with the switch closed, it can cause the freezer to not cool down. Another thing to do is clean the coils. I have a special non-metallic brush for sweeping out the lint that will naturally collect at the coils.

Good luck!

[Mike Henderson]

On modern freezers, there is a timer that shuts off the compressor, then activates some heaters to melt the ice that forms on the freezer coils. When you have water dripping from the freezer, or icicles in the freezer compartment, it can mean that the drain is clogged and the water can't get to the evaporation pan when the heater goes on to melt the ice. You can also see a drop in the cooling because the water pools in the area of the coils and then freezes when the defrost cycle is over. Excessive ice on the coils act like insulation and prevent the freezer from cooling as cold as it should. You may also notice that the compressor is running more than usual.

There can be other causes but that's what I'd check first. It's also the cheapest solution so it's a good thing to eliminate first. And the age of your unit is about when enough trash can collect to block the drain.

Mike

[There's no way to stop the accumulation of ice on the coils in a freezer. To get the freezer down to below freezing temperature - maybe zero F - the coils have to get quite cold. Any moisture in the air in the freezer will condense on the coils and turn to ice. The only way to get rid of the ice is to heat the coils sufficiently and long enough to melt the ice. That's how a "frost free" freezer works.]

[Lloyd Kerry]

13 years old? hmm... Do you have a kilowatt meter? A small hand-held device, plug it into the wall outlet, plug the appliance into it and it will tell you its power consumption. Your fridge might be getting a little long in the tooth, energy-efficiency wise.
Here's one on amazon.com for under 20 bucks: http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU
Worth a look. Oh, and if you do replace the old fridge, don't put the old one in the garage for, um, beverages and then wonder why the new energy-efficient fridge hasn't lowered your power bill! A friend who owns an appliance store tells me that happens a lot! :rolleyes:

[Mike Henderson]

A new freezer will be more efficient than an older freezer. But the difference is not so large that you'd want to get rid of a working freezer and replace it with a new freezer. It would take a very long time to recover your cost.

Also, the frig does not get less efficient over time, unless there's a problem with the seal around the door.

The biggest electric power user in your home is the air conditioning unit. If you live in an area with hot, long summers you'll save a lot more money by running your AC a few degrees warmer than by replacing your refrigerator/freezer. Personally, I'd wait unit the frig completely dies before I'd buy a new one.

Mike

[Lloyd Kerry]

I beg to differ, Mike. When my standup freezer was about 15 years old, I borrowed one of those meters from our local library (an incentive started by the local electric utility) and checked my appliances. The freezer was costing be about $17 a month to run! A new one was rated at about $4. a month. Older fridges and freezers have less efficient compressors, especially as they age, not to mention the slight loss of refrigerant over time. Sure, it will take 4-5 years for the new one to pay off, but the $13 extra a month in my pocket is handy. Another major drain (for those who may not use air conditioners) is the dehumidifier which many of us are forced to use in basements with our humid summers. I think many energy experts will agree that old, inefficient appliances are a big problem with regard to a greener environment.

[Greg Peterson]

Cleaned off the coils under the fridge. Quite a bit of 'matter' down there certainly preventing them from working as efficiently as they are capable.

Clearing the drain on the freezer makes sense. The drain pan under the fridge was dry so obviously nothing has been getting down there lately. Any ideas on how to access this drain?

Llyod - My understanding on the energy efficient units is that the lower priced units use a smaller compressor to hit the energy consumption mark required. The more expensive units are better constructed and do use motors that are truly more efficient.

[Brian Elfert]

Energy use in freezers and refrigerators is rated by energy used in a year. A smaller compressor is unlikely to reduce energy usage by itself without other changes. It will just run longer.

[Mike Henderson]

Clearing the drain on the freezer makes sense. The drain pan under the fridge was dry so obviously nothing has been getting down there lately. Any ideas on how to access this drain?
If you can see the drain from the inside of the freezer, use an air nozzle and blow it out. You can do the same from below but you'll blow the trash into the freezer. But if you can't access the drain from the freezer, that's better than nothing. It doesn't take much. On mine, there was just a plug of trash that came out easily but it was enough to stop the water from draining.

Mike

[Greg Peterson]

Thank you very much gentlemen for all your advice and pointers. It is greatly appreciated.

Under the plastic tray that lines the bottom of the freezer was a solid sheet of ice. After removing the ice from this area I moved on to the thick build up of ice along the back edge of the freezer compartment. This is where the metal 'drip pan' for the freezer coil is located. The ice build up was particularly thick here. Removing the ice required the use of a hair dryer (on low heat and patience) to get the ice soft enough to pry it loose.

I found the drain to be plugged with ice. What caused the drain tube to get clogged enough to allow it to ice up is a mystery at this time. Getting the ice thawed in the drain required several techniques as the location of the drain limited my options. The final technique was a tube and funnel which allowed me to direct hot water into the top of the drain. Eventually I heard water draining into the pan beneath the refrigerator. I poured more hot water down the drain tube for good measure.

I will revisit this in a few weeks to make sure the drain remains open. In the meanwhile I'll have to coil brush and an air nozzle that will allow me to get into mouth of the drain. Between a thorough dusting of the coils and a long blast of air down the drain tube, we should be able to put off buying a new refrigerator for a while yet.

Your help has given me peace of mind. Thank you again.

Merry Christmas!

[Jim Koepke]

Greg,

I hope your problem is solved. I have seen just a little dust causing this kind of problem.

If the heating part of the defroster is not working, you will know very soon.

Cross that bridge if you ever get to it.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Greg,

I hope your problem is solved. I have seen just a little dust causing this kind of problem.

If the heating part of the defroster is not working, you will know very soon.

Cross that bridge if you ever get to it.

jtk
If the defrost heater is not working, the symptoms are different. Instead of a pool of water in the pan below the coils, you just get iced up coils - very thick ice on the coils and the freezer is just not getting cold. The ice actually insulates the coils. The freezer temperature may even rise slightly above freezing - you'll notice that ice cream is not hard and ice cubes may be melting. When you have ice below the coils, it indicates that the heater is working and melting the ice, but the water is not draining out of the freezer compartment.

At least that's my experience.

Mike

[Greg Peterson]

I think the defroster is working just fine. For whatever reason the drain tube got plugged up enough to where the water could not drain fast enough before freezing. All the ice has been removed and the tube cleared. I will return in a few weeks and hit the drain with some more hot water and air just to be safe.

[David G Baker]

Greg, Next time you need to clear the ice from your freezer compartment set up a regular fan so it blows room temperature air into it. This method takes a little longer than the hair dryer but it frees you up to catch the water draining on the floor with towels, etc. It has been years since I've had a drain plug up but it has happened several times in the past.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll tell my story about how I learned about a clogged drain hose - it still irritates me today.

I had a GE side by side and I started getting icicles in the freezer compartment. I called GE service and the guy came out to analyze the problem. He opened the freezer and said, "You need a defrost kit." He did absolutely no testing of components, he just glanced into the freezer and said, "You need a defrost kit." Not knowing much about refrigerators, I said, "Okay, how much?" He did some figuring and when it was finally added up, the total came to almost $1,000.

After he left, I started thinking and decided to go on eBay and see what a "GE defrost kit" costs. It was a lot less than the part cost he was going to charge me so I decided to order it and do the work myself. In installing the kit, I found the clogged drain hose.

I was so pissed, I contacted GE and demanded my money back for the initial service call, and they did refund my money.

The reason I was so upset is that someone who repairs refrigerators every day should know that drain hoses get clogged and the symptoms of such a clog. Additionally, my refrigerator was at the age where enough junk accumulates to clog the hose. At a very minimum, the service guy should have checked the drain hose for a clog before telling me I needed a repair that was going to cost $1,000. My belief is that he knew the problem was probably a clogged drain hose but was going to do a lot more to make the bill larger - which is absolutely crooked, almost criminal.

As you can imagine, I will NEVER have GE service again, and I'll avoid ever buying a GE appliance again.

Alternatively, he could have come in, said "We see this all the time and it's usually a clogged drain hose. I can try to clean it now but it'll cost you $xxx for my time" and I would have been a happy camper and would have recommended GE service to everyone. What a bunch of jerks.

Mike

[David G Baker]

Thanks for sharing your GE experience Mike. My major purchases are based on information based on information from individual experiences like yours. It is amazing how little thought companies give to their customers repair experiences and the power of the Internet. I have one GE product in my kitchen, a ceramic top stove that has performed okay so far for the past 4 years but based on your post I will probably not knowingly purchase another GE product.

[Mike Henderson]

Maybe I'll naive but I expected that a major company like GE would provide honest service.

On the positive side, I've had pretty good experience with Sears service.

Mike

[Greg Peterson]

David - Thanks for the fan tip.

Mike - Shortly after we purchased our Kenmore front load washing machine it made a strange noise during a spin cycle. The Sears technician that made the service call was polite and friendly, looked around, shared some back ground on the machine (no horror stories). He could not find anything but asked us to call if it made the noise again. We have not had a single problem with the machine since.