electrical mayday, open neutral?

[David Cramer]

Hello

This morning the power went out for one circuit in the house. I checked the breaker, assuming it had tripped but it hadn't.

Using the silly tester, it said hot/ground reversed which according to a YouTube video I just saw it is hogwash and it really means open neutral.

I checked the bus bar for a loose neutral and found them all tight.

I checked the latest switch that I recently wired up for a new light above our front closet and it was fine. All neutrals are neatly together with a wire nut.

Oddly though, the voltage reading that I get with my Fluke (accurate) meter is about 10.7 volts, seriously. Anywhere else it reads 120 as it should. The breaker is on now and there are no Christmas lights shining at the Cramer residents due to this switch.

I am not an expert with electrical work but I've swapped out (upgraded) at least 3 boxes (100 to 200amp) in my short life and I've wired a lot of things with no problems whatsoever but this one has me rather perplexed.

Any solutions/suggestions. It is implying a loose neutral wire and I've taken off the cover plates of all switches and outlets that I can find on this 15 amp circuit.

Baffled:(


Thanks,

David


p.s. 12 year old is waiting for the lights to burst on....so there's no pressure or anything:)

[John Coloccia]

Shut off the breaker and measure the resistance between neutral and ground. Check other outlets on the same circuit. Are they all open? Are they just high resistance? Is just one open? The outlets are likely daisy chained to each other, so start at the one closest to the breaker box and work your way down. Somewhere you probably have a neutral that has come loose.

I had a fan stop working in my house some time after I bought it. Just stopped one day. When I went to investigate, I found that the dopes who built the house (or installed the fan) drove a nail right through the romex, hitting the neutral. Eventually, the neutral just finally broke....more likely melted. You would be surprised what lurks in walls.

[Mike Henderson]

Check the voltage from the black wire (hot) to ground (the bare copper wire in the box). You should have 120V. If you have only 10V from hot to neutral (white) then you have an open neutral.

If you don't have 120V from hot to ground, you probably have an open hot.

Mike

[David Cramer]

Thanks fellas. You guys are fast! I will measure what you guys have said and get back soon. I posted a few minutes ago and it didn't go through, puzzling.

Anyways, I will measure neutral to ground in the box and see what comes up. And hot to ground also. Thanks again John and Mike.

[ray hampton]

did you check the connections at the breaker box ? do the circuit that are having problem include the ground fault ?

[David Cramer]

Yep, I checked those connections Rayand actually tightened every neutral and ground connection on each bar, but thanks. Nope, no ground faults on that circuit but I wish there was and that it was the issue as it would be a quicker fix.

Between neutral and ground at the switch box I am getting zero. As I said, I'm not an expert but I believe you guys meant or said to do it with the breaker off. I have a really good Fluke meter only because my Uncle gave it to me years ago as he had no use for it and I could use it more than him. I am only mentioning that as the meter is decent and highly accurate, I think.

Can I use long wires with alligator clips to go on one end of a neutral, say the switch box, and then the end of where that wire terminates at the light fixture? Honestly, I am assuming that's the only way to find out where a break might be or a disconnect to check for continuity.

I've gone through 6 outlet/switch boxes so far and since a few more light don't work when the breakers off, I guess I have a few more:).

It's more the frustration of not solving the problem but I highly appreciate you guys, John, Mike, and Ray for giving it a shot....my wife and 12 year old girl appreciate it as well.

I will keep trying and thanks again.

David Cramer & Family:)

[Dan Friedrichs]

Since you have 0 (I assume ohms?) between neutral and ground at the box, let's assume the problem isn't there.

Have you checked the voltage between hot and ground at the outlet? You should have 120V. If you do, but have only minimal voltage between hot and neutral, you have an open neutral.

You absolutely can use long alligator clip wires to perform a continuity test on the neutral supplying this circuit.

Also, I can't tell from your description if you've already checked this, but is it possible that the problem is with whatever fixture/outlet is at the end of the circuit? Did you check the voltage right at the actual wires?

[John Coloccia]

Hmm....by chance you're not measuring at the outlet that is switched, and the switch isn't off is it? Also, you're not accidentally switching the neutral, are you?

I suggested doing the measurement with the breaker off because any voltage on the line will screw up the measurement and I figured you didn't know off the top of your head every outlet and light the breaker controller :)

[ray hampton]

David, using alligator clips means that you will need to pull the neutral wires one at a time from the bus bar if they are wired together and check each wire with the meter

[Dan Friedrichs]

David, using alligator clips means that you will need to pull the neutral wires one at a time from the bus bar if they are wired together and check each wire with the meter

I actually don't think he needs to do that. He can leave the neutrals connected at the panel, and measure continuity from the suspected circuit back to the panel (or to any other neutral, for that matter).

[Mike Henderson]

Yep, I checked those connections Rayand actually tightened every neutral and ground connection on each bar, but thanks. Nope, no ground faults on that circuit but I wish there was and that it was the issue as it would be a quicker fix.

Between neutral and ground at the switch box I am getting zero. As I said, I'm not an expert but I believe you guys meant or said to do it with the breaker off. I have a really good Fluke meter only because my Uncle gave it to me years ago as he had no use for it and I could use it more than him. I am only mentioning that as the meter is decent and highly accurate, I think.

Can I use long wires with alligator clips to go on one end of a neutral, say the switch box, and then the end of where that wire terminates at the light fixture? Honestly, I am assuming that's the only way to find out where a break might be or a disconnect to check for continuity.

I've gone through 6 outlet/switch boxes so far and since a few more light don't work when the breakers off, I guess I have a few more:).

It's more the frustration of not solving the problem but I highly appreciate you guys, John, Mike, and Ray for giving it a shot....my wife and 12 year old girl appreciate it as well.

I will keep trying and thanks again.

David Cramer & Family:)

You can't check the voltage (as I described) unless the circuit is hot. You want to do those voltage checks at the service box, not at the main panel. And you want to check on the actual wires, just in case the switch or outlet the wires are connected to is bad.

Mike

[Tom Stenzel]

This is voltmeter 101.

When testing for voltage test with the power on, otherwise you will see nothing.

When checking for resistance (ohms), the power must be off. The meter can be damaged although Flukes are generally well protected for this abuse. Older Flukes not so much so be careful.

Testing for voltage is inherently more hazardous because, well, there's 120 volts there!

With the power on, measure for voltage to ground from the phase (supposed to be black) wire. There should be 110-120 volts. Then test to see if you have voltage from the neutral to ground with any load on the circuit, even a single night light. The voltage on the neutral should remain at zero or very close to it.

Are you sure you don't have a tripped GFCI somewhere? The in-line ones I've seen open both the phase AND the neutral when tripped. That could be confounding you too.

In my years at work I've seen more mishaps and catastrophes from broken, shoddy or makeshift test leads than by any meter malfunction. Be careful.
-Tom Stenzel

[Ed Griner]

You might want to have your power company check the service connections coming into the house.Let us know how you make out. Ed

[Pat Barry]

Basic facts - Voltage reading, neutral (white) to ground (green) should be 0 VAC. Voltage hot (black) or (red if switched) should be 115VAC +/- 5 VAC to either neutral or ground. If you are reading 10.7 VAC on the neutral to ground then there is a problem that needs fixing and it might be a bad connection somewhere you can't easily see it (like up in your attic). Likewise if you are reading 10.7 VAC on the hot to neutral there is a problem. Keep in mind that 3 way switches can make your diagnostic life difficult. I suspect that since you tightened what you could there is an out of sight connection that is problematic (in your attic for example) or, the wire nut connection may have a broken wire in it. I would suspect the neutral line given the symptoms and it may not be in the faulty outlet box because as others have suggested this is daisy chained.

[David Cramer]

Worked all day...at work:(

Tomorrow I will attack all of your suggestions and we, my family and I, appreciate them more than you know and I sincerely mean it.

I will be home in the afternoon and can spend a few hours to this mystery and try to solve it. Dan, Tom, Ed, Mike (again), thanks for your support as well as everyone above them in the thread.

Thou will not quit:)

[Steve Baumgartner]

Another thing to consider is how your circuits are wired through outlet boxes. The best practice is to join the wires of the same type (hot, neutral, ground) together with a separate jumper from each to the appropriate place on the receptacle. But sometimes people connect an incoming wire to one screw or backstab on the outlet and the outgoing wire to the other screw or backstab (especially on homeowner and/or uninspected work). Particularly with backstabs, there can be problems with the wires not connecting well or with an internal failure in the receptacle.

Failing that, I would second the suggestion that there is another connection box somewhere in the circuit that you haven't found yet. Typical branch circuits are either fed sequentially from one outlet box to the next or else fed as a bunch from a common connection box in the attic or basement.

By the way, the 10.7 volts is most likely induced from another wire that runs parallel to the problem one somewhere. When a circuit is open, you can detect these stray voltages with your multimeter.

[David Cramer]

Although it's not working yet, thanks to all who responded and here's where it stands.

I connected the hot and neutral from the breaker in question at the main as suggested to create a loop. I then went to the hot and neutral from the hot romex that is feeding the switch. I was told that there is no way I will have continuity as there has to be a break in the line. Well...I got continuity. Strange, but true.

Not being a master electrician, I can only "assume" that something is loose that I missed, but not tight enough to make the 120 volt connection. My logic might be flawed, but I don't know what else to think.

Ironically, my wife just told me that 2 circuits don't work in the basement so I am crossing my fingers that one of them has a loose neutral connection. If not, there is a break between one of 5 or 6 outlets/switches, as the other outlets all work on that circuit while the breaker is on.

Honestly, this is my first time ever running into a situation like this and it's getting to be more baffling/perplexing than frustrating.

Our Christmas lights are on as is our tree and computer as I ran heavy duty extension cords.

Merry Christmas to all you guys and thanks for your great suggestions as I truly appreciate it.

All will be well and I will get this thing figured out eventually.

Gratefully,

David Cramer and Family

[Lee Schierer]

Although it's not working yet, thanks to all who responded and here's where it stands.

I connected the hot and neutral from the breaker in question at the main as suggested to create a loop. I then went to the hot and neutral from the hot romex that is feeding the switch. I was told that there is no way I will have continuity as there has to be a break in the line. Well...I got continuity. Strange, but true.

Not being a master electrician, I can only "assume" that something is loose that I missed, but not tight enough to make the 120 volt connection. My logic might be flawed, but I don't know what else to think.

Ironically, my wife just told me that 2 circuits don't work in the basement so I am crossing my fingers that one of them has a loose neutral connection. If not, there is a break between one of 5 or 6 outlets/switches, as the other outlets all work on that circuit while the breaker is on.

Honestly, this is my first time ever running into a situation like this and it's getting to be more baffling/perplexing than frustrating.

Our Christmas lights are on as is our tree and computer as I ran heavy duty extension cords.

Merry Christmas to all you guys and thanks for your great suggestions as I truly appreciate it.

All will be well and I will get this thing figured out eventually.

Gratefully,

David Cramer and Family


One more thought. It could be a bad switch. Some of the silent switches will stick in the off position even when the lever is thrown. Check continuity of the switch itself with no wires connected.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Another thing to consider is how your circuits are wired through outlet boxes. The best practice is to join the wires of the same type (hot, neutral, ground) together with a separate jumper from each to the appropriate place on the receptacle. But sometimes people connect an incoming wire to one screw or backstab on the outlet and the outgoing wire to the other screw or backstab (especially on homeowner and/or uninspected work). Particularly with backstabs, there can be problems with the wires not connecting well or with an internal failure in the receptacle.


I recently tracked a similar issue that was the result of a loose wire on an outlet. The problem outlet was fine, it was those further down the chain that had the problem... Took a long time to find.

[David Cramer]

Well it did end up being an open neutral and the quick solution, that I was not aware you could do, was to jump from the neutral side of the outlet directly to ground bypassing the open neutral. The guy who said you could do this actually said that he learned it from an inspector many years ago. While I understand that the neutral and ground are tied in at the main, it still didn't make sense to me, but...it worked:)

Regardless, I am going to be separating those circuits when I replace the main this spring so it won't stay that way as the original electrician put 9 outlets and 4 light fixtures on one 15 amp circuit (I recounted:)) Maybe back then it was the norm, but it's a bit much for my liking and I will have plenty of room when I add a 200 amp box. My incoming wire was redone a few years ago as I went underground and it is wired to handle 200 amps.

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions.

David

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

David - I am quite surprised that an inspector would offer such a workaround, as it does not seem up to code. The danger is that for all of the other connection on that circuit between that jumper and the main panel, current is now being carried on the ground wire - which is not its intended purpose.

[David Cramer]

David - I am quite surprised that an inspector would offer such a workaround, as it does not seem up to code. The danger is that for all of the other connection on that circuit between that jumper and the main panel, current is now being carried on the ground wire - which is not its intended purpose.


I agree John, totally as it has bothered me as well.

The guy who did it is a master electrician, 12 years. When I questioned how he could do that, he said an inspector showed him years ago and I still said I don't understand "how" you can do that. He said to go look on your main and you will see that the ground and neutral are tied in together on the bus bar, but again I agree, it doesn't make sense.

David

[Dan Hintz]

jump from the neutral side of the outlet directly to ground bypassing the open neutral. The guy who said you could do this actually said that he learned it from an inspector many years ago.
You can do this to test the continuity of a line, but I can't see how this would be to code fore reasons mentioned previously. This is dangerous, and the bandaid should be removed and the true problem resolved before you walk away and forget about this.

[Phil Thien]

Using a ground as a neutral is a violation of NEC.

[Lee Schierer]

I would strongly recommend that you not connect the neutral to the ground anywhere but in the main box. You are electrifying the fixture bodies that are grounded and metal boxes and creating a potential hazard. If I were there I would turn off the breaker that is involved and identify every outlet and switch on the circuit. Then I would pull each device and check for a loose neutral, even to the point of removing wire nuts and redoing the connection. Most likely someone in your house plugged something in to one of the other outlets on the circuit and jiggled the outlet just enough to break a weak connection. Stab in connections are notorious for getting loose over time. Also any wires that were nicked during the stripping process can crack at the nick and break if there is any movement in an outlet.

While you're at it use a magic marker and mark the circuit breaker number on teh back of each cover plate. This will save you time in the future trying to locate which breaker to turn off to do work.

[John Coloccia]

Your neutral has already broken somewhere. Think about what would happen if the ground broke. Whatever chassis are grounded are now energized and it can well kill you if you touch it....say, the exposed mounting screw of the outlet...or a light.....or anything that touches ground that's upstream from the break.

There's a very good reason neutral and ground are only tied together at the box.

There's also a very good reason why plugs are polarized, and why you should always be absolutely sure to get that right too. A cheap little tester, like the one you're using, is so important.