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View Full Version : Vector cut problems - ridges in all materials



Mike Chance in Iowa
03-09-2005, 7:29 PM
Hi. I've been lurking on this board for awhile now. Coming out of lurk mode in need of advice.

I bought an Epilog Mini 45-watt back in August.
With every material I vector cut, whether thin wood, acrylic, leather, rowmark laser plastic, paper, you name it, there are ridges along the edges like you would feel on an quarter or dime. This is with a simple vector square, oval, line etc created using Corel 12.

The horizontal cuts produce lighter ridges, while the vertical cuts are more prominent and the rounded cuts are the most prominent. I need to take sandpaper to the Rowmark plastic to smooth the edges.

I have sent samples to Epilog twice now (Nov & Feb). Today they have finally responded with basically a "deal with it" attitude. My Epilog Sales Rep has been non-existent since the sale was completed.

Is it true that I should have these ridges on all my vector cuts (doesn't matter how fast or slow I go)? The Epilog manual certainly states different - that Acrylic should "produce an almost flame polished edge" and that "Laser cutting produces very nice edge quality without the need for polishing or secondary clean up."

Michel

Michael McDuffie
03-09-2005, 9:06 PM
Hi. I've been lurking on this board for awhile now. Coming out of lurk mode in need of advice.

I bought an Epilog Mini 45-watt back in August.
With every material I vector cut, whether thin wood, acrylic, leather, rowmark laser plastic, paper, you name it, there are ridges along the edges like you would feel on an quarter or dime. This is with a simple vector square, oval, line etc created using Corel 12.

The horizontal cuts produce lighter ridges, while the vertical cuts are more prominent and the rounded cuts are the most prominent. I need to take sandpaper to the Rowmark plastic to smooth the edges.

I have sent samples to Epilog twice now (Nov & Feb). Today they have finally responded with basically a "deal with it" attitude. My Epilog Sales Rep has been non-existent since the sale was completed.

Is it true that I should have these ridges on all my vector cuts (doesn't matter how fast or slow I go)? The Epilog manual certainly states different - that Acrylic should "produce an almost flame polished edge" and that "Laser cutting produces very nice edge quality without the need for polishing or secondary clean up."

Michel


Hello Michael and welcome.

I must admit that I am less than pleased with my Epilog Legend 24's vector cutting. I too get ridges on cut edges. It doesn't matter where I have PPI set as it is a function of the drive system. At delivery, it wouldn't even cut a circle. I had to tighten the belts a bit and it's much better I'd like it to have "flame cut edges"

I find that when cutting plastic, I need to use settings of Speed 10, Power 30 Frequency 5000 and DPI 1200. This gets me a clean edge but still a bit wavy. BTW, my laser is rated at 70 watts so you will need to play with the numbers a bit.

Epilog's standard response is "send us the file and a sample" which I haven't done yet. To their credit, when I burned up a motor due to a lack of software travel limits they replaced it, under warrenty, within a day.

Michael

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-09-2005, 9:24 PM
Hi. In November I was told by Epilog Tech support that DPI makes no difference when vector cutting. I've tried 40/100/5000, any faster and it won't cut through, any slower and I get too much burning/warping. I've left the DPI at 600.

Each time I've been told to send samples and that they will test it on their brand new machines. Then I hear nothing from them until I send repeated messages over the next few weeks asking about the status.

I've had no responses from my Sales rep even though he's been cc'd on all my tech support requests. I think the last time I heard from him was when I handed him a check.

Michel

Linda Tetreault
03-09-2005, 9:37 PM
Michel,

I have a Mini 35w, it cuts 1/4 plexi at 7-100-5000 & DPI 300 with edges that are as smooth as glass. It may be beginners luck, but those settings work great for me. Linda

Keith Outten
03-10-2005, 1:02 AM
Michel,

I own the Epilog Legend 24 (35 watt) and the edges of all my projects have always been almost perfect. Acrylic cuts just as Epilog advertises with a mirror like finish. Wood cuts are also very smooth.

OK, I have to announce that my laser tube is in a box headed for Colorado right now but when I did have the tube installed it vector cut well :)

By the way Epilog does monitor this forum very closely and I expect when the right individual reads your message they will contact you and help resolve the problem.

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-10-2005, 1:36 AM
Thank you Keith and Linda. I had a strong suspicion I received the big finger from Epilog. Nice to see it doesn't happen on this forum!

What about raster engraving? Do you see fine horizontal lines if you do a black square on plastic?

If I raster a clear acrylic piece it's filled with fine horizontal lines of varying length and depth. It happens with any dpi setting or speed and either "clip art" or "photograph" selected under Dithering (Advanced Tab). (I was told by Epilog it didn't matter what dithering option I used.)

Michel

Keith Outten
03-10-2005, 7:19 AM
Michel,

Raster engraving is also very smooth on my machine. Horizontal lines (banding) are often a problem on some engravers machines, especially when engraving black marble. The only time I have seen banding on my engraver was on black marble, adjusting the speed and power settings cured the problem for me. On wood and glass or other materials you would have to use a very stong magnifying glass to be able to see horizontal lines, they shouldn't be visible to the naked eye. Horizontal lines will always be there by virtue of the engraving process but they should be so small they are not visible.

Many engravers who have had banding problems have had to replace their CO2 tube to eliminate the problem.

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-10-2005, 12:20 PM
Hmmm.. this just gets better and better.

So then, since I can see visable horizontal lines in clear acrylic throughout the entire "black square" raster engraving, from a distance of 3' away, without my glasses on, means the laser is running perfect, right? At least according to Epilog tech support....

Michel

James Stanaway
03-10-2005, 1:03 PM
Hi Michel,

I just read your post and will look into this right away. I'm sorry to hear about this problem, and I'm sorry to hear about the response you received. Let me talk to some people here and see what I can find out.

Thank you,
James Stanaway
Marketing
Epilog Laser

Keith Outten
03-10-2005, 1:13 PM
Michel,

If you look at the photo I posted of the acrylic boxes, well I'm not sure if you can tell from that photo since I had to resize it, but the engraving on the box doesn't show any visible evidence of horizontal lines. The engraved surfaces are absolutely smooth, and my machine will do the same with glass if I use wet paper on top while engraving.

I wish I had a macro lens for my camera I would take a close-up photo. Maybe I can find someone who can take a photo for me just so you can see what I call smooth.

Jeff DeVore
03-10-2005, 3:57 PM
This is an interesting subject. I have a 75 watt Epilog Legend 24 EX and have simular but less pronounced effects that Michel has. I just assumed that this was the way laser cut and engraved. When I vector cut 1/4" oak I get lines slightly more pronounced than a # 7 skip toothed scroll saw blade produces. When I vector cut acylic while the edge is shiny the edge is slightly different depths simular to a fine saw but spread apart more. If I raster acrylic and say use black as a background I can see the horizontal lines but from 6 inches away it just looks like satin. Is my machine working at its optimum or is there something I might do to make it work even better? Michel please keep us posted as to what Epilog says to fine tune to fix your problems, Jeff.

Thomas Hempleman
03-10-2005, 6:23 PM
This may (or may not) help the banding problem. How's that for confidence?

Try taking the lens slightly out of focus. If your laser's autofocus is too accurate, the light beam can be too narrow and cause ridges (and sometimes banding). Taking the lens slightly out of focus spreads the beam out more and will lessen the ridges and bands. Experiment with changing the focus in very small increments to see if the bands become less visible. I have never needed to try this trick, but some say it does help.

Tom
Wildwood Hill Laser Graphics

Roy Brewer
03-10-2005, 7:33 PM
<!--StartFragment -->>>>>In November I was told by Epilog Tech support that DPI makes no difference when vector cutting. I've tried 40/100/5000, any faster and it won't cut through, any slower and I get too much burning/warping. I've left the DPI at 600.<<<<


DPI is strictly a parameter of raster engraving and has nothing to do with vector cutting.

It is not common knowledge, however, that the Epilog system uses a different algorithm for vectoring above and below 20%. That is, if you want the smoothest edges, you should always use 19% speed or less (and the slower the better as Linda has found). I've learned my cargo van does not turn a corner well at high speeds either (private joke); while every machine is a bit different --- I'd recommend lowering both power and speed to get the quality cut you require without the burning/warping.

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-10-2005, 8:35 PM
Thanks for all the input. Epilog has read the posts and has been in contact with me. I have tried raster engraving 2 clicks up and down out of focus and there are still raster lines.

They are requesting more samples from me from all forms of laser material.

Here are two pictures. They are not the best lighting or focus, but you get the general idea of the image.

The acrylic had a solid black background. The horizontal lines are not solid, but broken up and taper at the edges. I get the same results on any rowmark lasermark/lasermax plastic. Same with a sample piece of laser magnet and laserthins.

The ridges were cut on a piece of lasermax. It was a rectangle about 6" long and this section was supposed to be the long, straight edge.

Michael McDuffie
03-11-2005, 1:37 AM
First, Michel, sorry about misspelling your name. Old habits die hard.

Roy Brewer's comment about different algorithms explains why I have to move so slowly to get good edges.

I don't have near the problem that Michel has, but more like the beam expanded a bit every few 1/16ths.

I'm still running the original print driver since I'm still using Win98.

I've had my Legend 24 for over three years now and have learned somethings which may or may not be common knowledge.

There are no software or electrical stops for the travels and the drives will go where you tell them to, even to the point of letting all of the smoke out.

When using Intelliscribe, never ever send a new job when the laser is moving.

The rotary fixture should not be used for precision marking. It is off by a very small percentage and lines will not meet or will overlap.

The laser can't interpret files names starting with numbers and will beep at you.

The graphics display is almost but not quite useless.

I'm a horrible salesman and will probably never recoup my investment. Sigh


Anyhow, Epilog has been responsive when I've had an actual mechanical problem but understandably vague when it's a problem with Corel.

Michael

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-11-2005, 2:41 AM
Thank you for the input Roy. From what I've read, you've been a great rep for people in your area.

I tried cutting at a much slower speed (18 and slower) and the ridges are still evident, although less pronounced. It would still need sanding in order for it to be quality work.

Another forum has a user with an identical machine and he posted lasermax settings that work for him. The quality of raster engraving is better, but there is still evidence of power surges or something where the lines are more evident. His vector settings produced just slightly better ridges then mine. (28/75/500)

Until I send more samples of all the materials, tech support will not offer any more solutions. Peck was unable to see the horizontal lines in the full-sized unedited photos I sent him. (I cropped the same photos to post on the forums...)

I now have a new motto. After 20+ years, "See the Possibilities" is no longer my phrase that runs through my mind all day long. It's "Strive to be Adequate."

Michel

P.S. - Michael, you are forgiven for misspelling my name. I have to think twice about and double-check YOUR spelling! :D I confuse a lot of people with my name.

Roy Brewer
03-12-2005, 12:21 AM
>>>>>The laser can't interpret files names starting with numbers and will beep at you.<<<<<

Michael,

That was fixed a couple years ago. You should download the latest firmware for your Legend. See the Epilog web site for instructs if you have not flashed your firmware previously.

Michael McDuffie
03-12-2005, 12:36 AM
Roy,
I've flashed my machine a couple of times. The most recent release that I know of for the Legend 24 is 01.40.12.08 dated January 20 2003. Epilogs site seems to be down right now but I do check every few months.
To tell the truth, I learned the lesson the hard way and haven't tried file names begining with numbers since then. Numbers in the middle of a file name are not a problem.

Michel,
Try spelling Vaelaveamata three times fast.:confused:
My wife shortened her name to Mata when we were married.

Michael

Jeanette Brewer
03-14-2005, 11:49 AM
>>>>>>>The most recent release that I know of for the Legend 24 is 01.40.12.08<<<<<<<<


FYI only...

1.40.12.12 is available for download on the website www.epiloglaser.com (http://www.epiloglaser.com)



Jeanette Brewer
BREWER SALES (Epilog Laser & Xenetech distributor)

Michael McDuffie
03-14-2005, 3:54 PM
>>>>>>>The most recent release that I know of for the Legend 24 is 01.40.12.08<<<<<<<<


FYI only...

1.40.12.12 is available for download on the website www.epiloglaser.com (http://www.epiloglaser.com)



Jeanette Brewer
BREWER SALES (Epilog Laser & Xenetech distributor)
Tis true but according to an Epilog service tech, the update only affects the Legend EX so I haven't bothered to download it.

Michael

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-20-2005, 2:13 AM
Thought I'd give everyone an update on what has happened so future readers are not left wondering what the resolution was....

After talking with Epilog, I have adjusted all three belts on the Mini. One belt was looser then the others, and I tightened all 3 to the best of my ability.

Adjusting the belts has greatly improved both my vector cutting and raster engraving.

Thanks to a user on another forum (with an Epilog 45-watt mini) sending me some samples, I was able to compare his output samples with mine and adjust the belts some more to try to improve my output.

I now have raster quality as good as his and my vector cutting is actually smoother then his.

I still have minor problems when cutting perfect circles. The ridges are barely evident, but I do have a small "bump" at the 4 & 10 position. They become more evident when I cut smaller circles. It's like someone put a speed bump in those two spots.

Thank you all again for your suggestions.

Scott Challoner
07-10-2007, 3:27 PM
In my experience, the "bump" is possibly the laser reflecting back off of an edge on the vector table. I usually seem to get a line from where the material sits on the honeycomb.
As far as raster lines... I take my Spirit out of focus by .020" when doing photos on wood or marble and it seems to work. That's what my rep recommended when I bought the laser and that's what I've always done. I don't think the eye can detect any focus problem, but the laser slightly "blurs" the lines together.

Scott Challoner

Marc Myer
07-10-2007, 7:57 PM
Thanks for the update--truly good news. Seems most of our satisfaction/lack thereof with a machine can be traced directly to the reps. That's why I'm so happy with my machine.

But I have one question, Michael: Vaelaveamata--is that Tongan or Samoan? :)

Bob Cole
07-11-2007, 1:13 AM
The Universal manual suggests when vector cutting acrylic to elevate the material above the table to avoid the laser reflecting back on the acrylic and causing the lines. I haven't done a lot of acrylic, but this seems to help considerably.

It is good to hear you have your issues resolved. This forum is great for getting help and ideas.