SMC Growth Rate - Update

[Keith Outten]

I would like to put everyon'e fears to rest, the situation we are in right now is a good thing, we are growing and our community is benefiting from a steady influx of new woodworkers. Our situation is positive in that we now are fortunate enough and have the opportunity to make some new choices for our woodworking community.

Nothing horrible is going to happen and we wouldn't allow any commercial presence to have anything but positive influence here at The Creek. Adding new forums for companies that we all would normally be dealing with anyway should be a benefit in that their tech support will be here and they will be able to announce new products in real time. We won't have to wait for a catalog to find out what is new and we may even have some influence concerning new tools and options on equipment that is "In the Lab" so to speak. We have all purchased tools that we felt would be much better if they had just added this or made that a little bigger or smaller. Vendors are always willing to listen to good ideas and positive feedback from their customers.

The only question I have is whether the timing is right. Rarely do you see this kind of a close relationship between vendors and end-users. Most companies are very cautious concerning their reputation and public image, if they think they wil receive bad publicity they will normally stay with the more conservative tact and keep a safe distance. The up side is that we should be able to attract smaller businesses, they are generally more flexible and willing to try new things.

What is in our favor is our numbers, the total number of members and SawMill Creeks web statistics are very impressive. With over 8.5 million hits per month and our data transfer, page views, etc make us attractive in many ways. Consider how much money a company has to invest in a web site and then the cost of promoting their site to obtain traffic. A commercial forum here at the Creek is a no brainer if you look at what a business would have to invest to get even half of the traffic we see every day.

I could be wrong, it won't be the first or last time I misread a situation but I think there is no down side to a partnership with SMC.

[Ian Abraham]

Hi Keith

I frequent another forum (on forestry and sawmills) which runs a 'sponsor' system something like you are talking about. Staff and management of those sponsors are often valuable members and able to answer members questions directly on the forum. Clear guidelines need to be set about what is acceptable and what might be called spam, but having a seperate sponsors forum would help there. Something like Google adverts or a small 'sponsored by' banner wouldn't put most members off. As these are controlled by yourselfs they will be relavant and not offensive flashing Casino adverts :eek: .An easy way to make an anonymous donation would be a good idea, subscriptions would be a death knell.

Thats my thoughts anyway, keep up the good work :)

Cheers

Ian

[Peter Gavin]

I guess the only thing I am concerned about in the manufacturer forums is will it effect the quality and honesty of the opinions expressed by Us? For example, there was a recent thread where a member asked if people felt he should buy a Laguna or a MiniMax bandsaw. The responses were mostly pro one side or the other and didn't degenrate into putting down the 'opposition', but these type of debates can quickly get spirited to say the least. How would it effect the debate if either of the two companies were 'sponsors'? And if the debate wasn't effected, who isn't to say that a manufacturer might take offense at comments and suddenly pull their support? If SMC is subject to sudden changes in budgeted financial support, couldn't that be worse than the growing pains that we are subjected to now, but that we can plan for?

I guess I would prefer that periodically a budget should be set that would allow SMC to continue in its current format. A sticky should be posted showing that as a goal for fundraising and a tally of donations to date. I agree STRONGLY, that no identification of who donated and who didn't should be made, but statistics showing total donations and number of members who have donated, average donation and maybe largest donation should be posted. Ideally, there would be a lot of small donations and everyone would continue to feel that SMC is the best deal on the web. If the donations fall short for an extended time, some members may feel (and be able) that they can contrinbute a little extra. This way, no one who is just discovering SMC or can't afford to donate or maybe just doesn't feel he needs to contribute (but may be contributing greatly in shared knowledge) will be lost.

JMHO

Peter

[John Shuk]

I used to go on the Laguna message board alot. I had issues with my bandsaw and it got me some attention. After a while there was a member who just wanted to attack Laguna and get a rise out of them. It got both embarrassing and annoying. Laguna was in a position where they could not win. They couldn't stifle this clown and had to spend time defending against his rants. He wasn't even a Laguna owner. I would say that from this experience there would have to be close moderation and we would all need to police ourselves. It is a great opportunity and we have to be careful not to ruin it. I can't wait and look forward to the new forums.

[Dale Thompson]

Keith,
I don't see any downside to inviting manufacturers to participate in SMC Forums. From your post, I would assume that any or all manufacturers could "purchase" their own Forum. I think that any legitimate manufacturer would benefit substantially from "user" input. Having a bit of an engineering background myself, I would suggest that any manufacturer that is afraid of having their products "reviewed" by the end user is probably not one that I would care to deal with. Any "quality" manufacturer should be more than interested in receiving customer input. By the term "quality", I really mean "cost/value". Why buy a $200 Router bit if you are going to use it once or twice? Do the consumer a favor and suggest a $20 alternative.

As embarrassing as it may be, I have a second hobby that involves 1:32 slot car racing. I was involved with a Forum on that subject. Since I had a relatively large track, I was asked by the Moderator to "evaluate" certain of the new products that were entering the market. Periodically, they sent me a "free" car or a "free" lap counter. I tried to give them a "fair" evalution complete with pictures. Top speed was not always the focus of my evaluations. Cost was a factor. Appearance was a factor. Magnets vs non-magnets were a factor. Amperage draw was a factor. "Stock" tires were a factor, etc.

EVERY product has its pros and cons. EVERY manufacturer has its advocates and detractors. That is a simple fact of life.

On the other hand, these factors can be factored out by the "overall" assessment of the end users. I own a small home business that is totally unrelated to woodworking. If anyone, anywhere has a problem with my product, I WANT TO KNOW!! Just a thought! :) ;)

Dale T.

[Michael Ballent]

Now that I understand the concept I think that it makes sense. It would be great if we could get some company reps on the site. Not only would it drive more people to SMC it would close the loop. Too often manufacturer do not have a clue as to what is going on with their wares. I remember when Frank Pellow was communicating to Festool about the tool liners in the Systainers and his feeling that they were not up to snuff. The CEO of Festool USA knew that his responses were being posted to this web site and explained their position, including how they tested the liners, a fact that I think most of us did not even realize. This type of exchange benefitted everyone, even though it was a lively discussion.

There are tons of great ideas being born in SMC and I believe our experience would help out the WW community as a whole. If there is a systemic problem with a tool I would think that the manufacturers would like to know before is mushrooms out of control. Getting updates on new tools would be great as well. I would love to know that there is a place on the net that I can voice my opinion good or bad to a manufacturer and know that it is being listened to. I have seen many posts where people are praising a manufacturer because they had an issue resolved quickly and to their satisfaction. These are also accompanied with rants on how the service they received just stunk and they would not buy again based on that experience. If manufacturers were to look at the SMC or any other board for that matter I think that they would start to understand their customer better. Little things, like the many woodworkers who would prefer that their tool was manufactured in the US, rather than China or some other country ( hint hint ;) )

Well off the soap box :)

[Keith Outten]

Adding commercial forums would definately be an experiment for both sides. I know that for many woodworking forums it would be impossible when there are constant flaming problems and users who misbehave. I also believe that if any online community has ever had an opportunity to move forward and rise to another level it is ours. Our track record is impressive over the last two years and we have established a community of woodworkers that is unique.

The issue of having to talk softly when evaluating a sponsors product is a valid concern. Certainly you cannot publicly insult those who pay for the service you are using. The last two years our only sponsor has been an Internet Provider and we have had the luxury of being able to speak freely. I have only asked our members to be fair and factual concerninig public posting of negative comments. John is right on the mark concerning close moderation...but we already have that here at the Creek, all of our members are the first line of moderators.

Peters comment concerning the loss of a sponsor and its financial impact is also a serious concern. When we have financial obligations that must be satisfied monthly we must have a reliable source of income. The loss of a sponsor could put the entire community at risk if the plug was pulled because we couldn't pay our bills. In exchange for somone else paying our bills we must give something in return, its a fact of life.

In an earlier post I mentioned small businesses being a good target for commercial forums. Dale has brought the subject up again and I agree that they generally want to know when they have problems and would appreciate positive feeback even if it is bad news. They can't fix what they don't know is broken. Small businesses are also more apt to benefit in increased sales from our members since they don't have the marketing power and advertising bugets to match the larger companies. Our FreeStuff drawings have been very sucessful for many of the companies who have donated tools as gifts for our members. Some of the companies have seen huge increases in sales from our members and are willing to donate again.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have cancelled all my magazines...even the car and truck oriented ones. The reason why is that since they all depend on advertisers for the bluk of their profit, they have become jaded as to which products they suggest for a given need.

I guess that pretty much says it all for me. I'd rather not have to deal with any bias when it comes to this subject.

[Dale Thompson]

Keith,
One more comment - maybe? Most people are basically honest. :) That statement applies to factory reps., sales people and even hallucinatory marketing types. ;)

I would love to see factory techs made available to the great folks on SMC. In the vast majority of cases, the reps will tell the truth if asked a specific question in a courteous manner. I remember talking, face to face, with a DeWalt rep about the dust collection capability of the bag on their 12" SCMS. The claim was 80%! I told him that I had one and would he consider knocking off the zero and claiming 8%? He just smiled and said that he would refund any money I had spent on the bag. The bag was free with the saw so I said that I couldn't accept any refund. We parted as friends.

Continuing my boring comments: Many years ago, I decided to build a rather extensive N-Scale Model Railroad Layout. Prior to any purchases, I called the company which was the "leader" in that field and asked to talk to the Quality Control Manager. I told him what I was planning and asked for his opinions on the many products available within that hobby. I was not surprised at his response. He said that his company's nickel-silver track and switches were the best on the market. He also said that their "rolling stock" (ie. cars) was a pretty good value. He thought that I would be pleased with them in terms of both performance, appearance and price. He also said that his company's engines and locomotives were "garbage" compared to X, Y and Z Company. He recommended Y Company for locomotion. Needless to say, I bought a LOT of stuff from his company - even a few engines for yard work. :cool:

Anyone who has ever watched, "Miracle on 34th Street" should understand the concept of "honest" marketing. ;) :)

Keith, invite the folks in. They will benefit from the fresh air of honesty and give your members a direct line to "The Top". Just a thought!? ;)

Dale T.

[Keith Outten]

Dale,

Thanks for the insight. It will take awhile for us to attract the right companies to SMC and I will need some help as there are so meny of them and only one of me. I expect our Members will chip in and help us find the Right Ones that wil fit in and will adapt to our pull up a log philosophy. We do have a couple of our Members who are talking to the companies they work for and I have made a contact or two already. No takers yet but we are in the early innings :)