Lie-Nielsen Thin Plate Dovetail & Tenon Saws

[Mike Holbrook]

Does anyone have experience with these saws to relate? The Gramercy kits seem over priced to me, although I do like their saw nuts and Wenzloff seems confused about what kits or parts they want to sell and not very inclined to ship anything. Maybe I will just buy something ready to work for a change. The Schwarz touts the advantages of thinner plates and remarks that even thin plate european saws are thick compared to Japanese saws. I read that these saws cut very fast?

[David Weaver]

6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't like a huge tenon saw to have a thin plate, nor a lot of deep plated saws - the plate flexes a lot more than it needs to in use, and in my experience with a tenon saw with .025 and .02 plates, the saw with more weight per width will win in the cut speed contest.

For finer saws, I like a thinner plate. I don't like the disston and all of the rest of those common saws that have a small plate and .025 thickness.

Mike's been under the weather, but I think his kits will give you the closest thing to a real saw-building experience, and for cheap if you're willing to make your handle from your own stock.

After he's had time to recover, I think his stock will be back up and he'll be ahead of orders.

If not, nobody else offers folded backs, plates and saw nuts as cheaply as he does with as much expertise to back what he's offering.

A lot of japanese saws for fine joinery have plates just over .01 thick. Using a plate that thin in a western saw that has the same depth is asking for trouble (asking to be bunched up in the cut sometime when you ham hand something).

What makes the japanese saws cut fast is the amount of hook they can have on the teeth in the pull (you couldn't even start a western saw with that much hook) and the profile of the teeth in general.

The LN saws are fine, I'm sure. I've never tried one because I have a personal issue with slotted backs, but there is no new line of saws that cheap and that good with folded backs.

[Joel Moskowitz]

The Gramercy dovetail kits are a good bit less expensive than some others and unlike our competition the folded brass backs are full formed, champhered, polished, and ready to go. The saw blade is also hand sharpened and ready to go to. So I am not sure why there is any price confusion.

[Jim Stewart]

I love the thin LN dovetail saw. I have gone thru a progression and I have ended up with the LN thin-kerf. For me it is the best I have used. With it I am able to cut perfect dovetails.

[Jim Barrett]

I purchased a LN thin plate dovetail saw a few months ago and it is a beauty...does cut fast but you have to have a light touch....let the saw do the work. You will be very happy with this saw.

Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I know about Mike Wenzloff's issues and I certainly sympathize. I like the Gramercy Sash saw. I love the fact that the saw nuts use locking washers instead of the carriage type bolts. I have several old saw handles that I can't tighten one or more of the handle bolts on because the bolt "mortises" have been stripped. I find the idea of a combination type sharpening technique for the Gramercy Sash Saw an interesting concept for this genera of bench saw. I guess I just have a problem buying the Gramercy Sash saw kit when for a few dollars more I can get a finished LN saw which I believe would serve me equally well. Maybe my problem is just that I am a little tired of restoring saws, waiting on saw files, shopping for stripping/finishing/gluing & filler products, making saw parts and trying to get old saws and kits together and just want something I can actually saw with already!

[Dave Anderson NH]

Just a note Mike. You can't do everything!!!! I know, I've been OCD and tried at times and only frustrated myself. I keep saying to myself that things will get better when I can ditch the day job and retire. Even with a side business as a toolmaker, I go out and purchase a completed tool on occasion. I love both making and restoring tools, but I also want to have time to make furniture too. Somewhere something has got to suffer.

[Jared McMahon]

Can someone refresh my memory as to why folded backs are a selling point over slotted?

[Mike Holbrook]

Good point Dave. I am currently; finishing up four wooden plane kits, restoring 4 or 5 panel/hand saws, finishing a Wenzloff Half-Back saw kit, restoring a Millers Falls Langdon 73C Mitre Box & Saw, building sawbenches, making the plans & gathering wood to make a new bench. Then there are my construction projects...Restoring and making tools is something I feel I can handle better in the shorter time slots I have so maybe I get a little carried away.

David Weaver mentions concerns with thinner saw plates. I think LN's saw plates were originally considered to be on the thicker side which may be why they came out with thinner ones. The Schwarz says he has gravitated to the thinner plates which may by association influence LN's direction. Since I am use to using Silky Japanese saws I am use to thinner blades & kerfs. The two 26" restores I am working on look & feel gigantic, even the 26" miter saw blade feels gigantic, but I am adapting. I have been test driving my Wenzloff Half-Back and find it to be quite comfortable to use. If my order for saw files ever arrives I can get teeth that actually cut on some of the older saws, which will come in handy building my sawbenches and bench. I am planing on draw boring mortise & tenon joints to join the wood for these projects so I think a good size tenon saw will come in handy. My Half-Back is filed for cross cutting so it may serve for cutting cheeks. I am also wondering if the Gramercy Bow/Turning saw will be big enough to cut some of the wavy lines for saw handles and totes?

[David Weaver]

They are to me because adjustment of the saw by the user is possible (and easy). They also, and this is totally personal opinion, represent sawmaking as the art of the sawmaker rather than a quickie-doo slot of a piece of brass on a piece of machinery and the gluing in of a plate of metal. I know that opinion makes a lot of people unhappy, but I guess there's no guarantee someone's opinion doesn't stink (I have plenty of smelly ones).

The former is the most important to me - a user who has minimal tooling available and minimal understanding of the adhesive used to hold in a slotted blade doesn't have the flexibility that a user who has minimal saw experience has moving the back on a saw up and down to try to get the saw back to where it needs to be in terms of straightness.

[David Weaver]

I think LN's saw plates were originally considered to be on the thicker side which may be why they came out with thinner ones.

I think they were. In reality, what I like is somewhere in the middle. For the 12-14 inch saws with plates not so deep, I like .020

For saws with really deep plates, like bigger tenon saws, I like .025 (.03 and the like starts to feel klunky)

And for the small saws, something a little thinner than .020 is nice unless they have a deep plate.

I think LN's big saws have .03 or something, don't they? I've had thicker saws in the past (ones not intended for miter boxes) and I didn't like them at all.

I could do work with any of them, fat or thin, you can get used to anything, but in a world where we have as many options as we do, might as well find what you like and pick it.

[Sean Richards]

I know about Mike Wenzloff's issues and I certainly sympathize. I like the Gramercy Sash saw. I love the fact that the saw nuts use locking washers instead of the carriage type bolts. I have several old saw handles that I can't tighten one or more of the handle bolts on because the bolt "mortises" have been stripped. I find the idea of a combination type sharpening technique for the Gramercy Sash Saw an interesting concept for this genera of bench saw. I guess I just have a problem buying the Gramercy Sash saw kit when for a few dollars more I can get a finished LN saw which I believe would serve me equally well. Maybe my problem is just that I am a little tired of restoring saws, waiting on saw files, shopping for stripping/finishing/gluing & filler products, making saw parts and trying to get old saws and kits together and just want something I can actually saw with already!

If you are looking at buying a ready to go saw the Gramercy sash and dovetail saws are a great option - I am super happy with mine. Great feel and balance and plate thickness well matched to size/usage. Joel is a great guy to deal with and very responsive to any questions/queries.

Sean

[Mike Holbrook]

David the LN site says:
"Our Tenon Saws are based on Disston models. Classic Curly Maple handles, stout 3/4" (1.90cm) x 1/4" (6.35mm) milled Brass back, Brass fittings, .032" (.81mm) thick Swedish Steel blade on our 12" and 14" saws."

I am surprised at how reasonable LN's saw prices are. If you compare the Gramercy saw prices to Bad Axe prices they are about the same. The truth is I am new to this and here to learn. Sometimes throwing out an uneducated thought or opinion does get discussion going. I am just learning to appreciate the western saws and I still have one foot in the Japanese saw world. So all the thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Gramercy is one of my favorite companies to deal with.

[Sean Richards]

I am surprised at how reasonable LN's saw prices are. If you compare the Gramercy saw prices to Bad Axe prices they are about the same. The truth is I am new to this and here to learn. Sometimes throwing out an uneducated thought or opinion does get discussion going. I am just learning to appreciate the western saws and I still have one foot in the Japanese saw world. So all the thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Gramercy is one of my favorite companies to deal with.

I guess the price difference comes down to design choices (slotted vs folded backs, amount of hand finishing, acid etch on the plate or not, etc), production processes and manufacturing volume. I only have experience with the Gramercy and Bad Axe saws (both excellent) so I am not qualified to comment on the LN saws.

[Chris Vandiver]

Gramercy saws are excellent!

[Rick Fisher]

I have the LN Dovetail saw .. Prior to getting it all I had was Japanese saws.. It changed my opinion of western style saws. Recently got a Wenzloff Sash saw .. same thing.. Would not say one is better than the other.. different uses ..

There is a review on the Lie Nielsen, Gramercy and Wenzloff dovetail saws here .. http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/dovSaws/dovSaws-1.asp

[Mike Holbrook]

Good review Rick, thanks for the link.

I like the LN thin plate dovetail & tenon saws. It is a little strange to me though that when you look at their Carcass saw there is only the 11" saw at .020, 14 ppi. If I move up to a "tenon" saw to get a little more blade length in a CC saw, the 12 & 14 CC saws are both .032.

I like the Adria saws too and they do offer a 14x4 CC tenon saw at .025, 11 tpi. Would be weird to have a LN 16x4 1/8 tenon saw at .020, 11 ppi and a 14x4 carcass/tenon saw at .025 or .032. The 11", .020 LN Carcass saw just seems short compared to the 16" tenon saw. I do have a Wenzloff 18" half-back, 10 ppi, CC though so maybe the 11" LN carcass saw fits?

[Chris Griggs]

If I move up to a "tenon" saw to get a little more blade length in a CC saw, the 12 & 14 CC saws are both .032.


I have the LN 14" filed Xcut - Nice saw, I like it, but honestly I've never been in love with it. I do think the plate is just a bit too thick. I keep thinking/saying I'm going to replace it with a Wenzloff kit, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I also, would prefer a folded back, this is just personal and very subjective, but the slotted machined backs just seem clunky too me.

Point being - I plan to replace it and sell someday.

[Mike Holbrook]

So Chris what would you buy or make? Seems to me Wenzloff kits are/were maybe on hold until Mike works out some health problems and a problem with their data base. In terms of kits that sort of leaves the two Gramercy offerings. Since I am good with the LN dovetail & large tenon saws the Gramercy dovetail kit is certainly not needed and since what I need is a carcass saw I think the Gramercy Sash saw is a poor fit as well. The LN Carcass saw is actually less money than the Gramercy kit. I am not trying to go cheap here. I just think LN makes quality tools too. I would like a larger capacity Carcass cc saw and there is the Adria but it is .025, 11 tpi. What I was looking for was a 14x4, .020, 14 ppi cc saw, but I do not find such an animal in kit or finished form.

I have plans to build a new work bench using mortise & tenon joints draw bored. The larger joints this bench will have beg for backsaws towards the larger size. I guess that even an 11' carcass saw would be plenty big enough to saw cheeks on tenons for such a bench though? I am of the opinion that a larger carcass saw might have advantages for cutting the sides of dados?

I am not sure why one might prefer a folded vs slotted back for such saws? I read something Joel wrote somewhere about folded backs being easier for new users, but I did not understand what the advantage was, something about adjustment? I understand that the slotted backs are typically glued in place, do the folded backs remain in place due to just friction? I asked Mike Wenzloff about the two types and he said they generally recommended slotted backs for people building their own so I am kinda confused. I thought this might be more of a tradition thing, all the older saws using folded backs, mostly because that was what they had to work with?

[Chris Griggs]

Well, the only xcut backsaw I currently own is the 14" LN. If I had an 11" carcass as my only xcut back saw I think I would wish for something bigger. For a first and only xcut backsaw I'd definitly go with 14" again!

That said, even though its only slightly longer a 12" would be preferable to me over the LN 11" so I'd go with the Gramercy Carcass kit or the 12" Wenzloff Xcut tenon saw that LV sells if I didn't want to wait for a wenzloff kit. The Adria might be a good option for you if you just want to buy saw and get on with using it. I've used the 12" "small tenon" in Xcut and it is like butter. I'd defintily go with the Adria 14" xcut over the LN if I were to do it again. When/if I replace my saws with Wenzloff kits I'm thinking I'll probbaly do a 14" .025 12ppi for a largish xcut backsaw. Actually I'd like to have both a finer 12" xcut carcass saw and the 14" xcut as well. I would not hesitate to buy the Gramercy kits for a finer carcass saw (although it look as though the price recently went up) - I like really the design of their saws, may grab one or both of there carcass saw kits one day.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the thoughts Chris. Sometimes we have to be diplomatic as lots of our favorite vendors wander these pages, I have to keep reminding myself...This is a relatively tough decision for me. I have been reading The Anarchist Tool Chest which does help me think a little more in terms of not trying to buy every tool in existence. I think there is a certain amount of this less is more philosophy in the whole idea of working with hand tools. Although the Gramercy offerings include an interesting combination Sash saw one has to consider the long term. Will the combination saw end up the long term less tools solution or end up as extra some day when one determines there is a need for both the saws it attempts to replace...I am tempted to buy a saw from 3-4 different vendors to see which one I like best. Although we all know this will just lead to buying more from the "favorite" vendor.

I think the LN and Adria saw handles are fairly similar which may make it easier to mix and match saws from those two vendors. From what I read most people grow accustom to whatever style of handle they learn to use first. I think the Gramercy may be the more unique handle, maybe even the best but if one wants to switch between different vendors saws....Tough decisions here without a right or wrong. We are fortunate to have these finer points to argue.

[Sean Richards]

Although the Gramercy offerings include an interesting combination Sash saw one has to consider the long term. Will the combination saw end up the long term less tools solution or end up as extra some day when one determines there is a need for both the saws it attempts to replace...

The Gramercy sash saw out of the box is filed rip with enough fleam that it crosscuts well - up to you at a later date if you want to file it with a touch more or less fleam to suit your needs.

[Chris Griggs]

Mike, Sean makes a good point. If you like the style of the Gramercy Sash and are comfortable filing a saw, there's nothing that says you can't buy the saw or kit, and just refile as a dedicated xcut if you don't think it crosscuts well enough as it comes.

I know what you mean by being tempted to buy one from each vendor. During a recent small shoulder plane purchasing decision, I came pretty close to buying two or three and then reselling the two I didn't want. I've heard of folks who do this with every tool purchase and just take the 10-15% loss in favor of being certain they have the tool that works best for their purposes, but I doubt most of us have the spare time or money to do this. It can be really frustrating to not be able to try before you buy, and not being able to do so is one of the reasons I've been contemplating building some of my own tools. I don't like the idea of spending a bunch of money on a tool that may or may not match my needs/wants, and I can't stand owning tools that don't get regularly used or at least have a dedicated purpose.

Looking at all your considerations so far Mike, I would think you can at this point narrow it down to the Adria 14" or the Gramercy Sash. If you are comfortable refiling get the Gramercy as it meets all your other requirements (e.g. .020" plate). One more consideration, if you get the Gramercy kit, there is nothing that says you need to use the handle pattern that comes with it - Wenzloff has a number of patterns on his site and I'm guessing you could find others as well.

From the sounds of it though, it seems like you already have a lot of tool builds going on and you might just want to get a saw you can use. If that the case, I'd be inclined to say just get the Adria and be done with it. No, it's not a .020 plate, but its thinner then the LN and I assume the .025 has become pretty standard for a reason. Subjectively, the Adria saws aren't my favorite in terms of looks/style/design, but it seems like it comes closer to meeting all your criteria then any other saw that's immediately available, and at $180 its pretty competitively priced. Again, I can also attest to the fact the the filing on them is VERY good!

[Jason Coen]

http://badaxetoolworks.com/14-inch-Sash-tenon-back-saw.html

This will be my next x-cut carcase saw. You can get it in any flavor you want - thin or thick, rip or x-cut, etc.

Well, it will be my next saw if I don't go with the Gramercy sash kit...love Joel's stuff.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Can I offer a small suggestion. While it is possible to figure out the rough parameters of what you want in a saw (or anything) the best way to go about this is to try out the tool and see if it speaks to you (all of the vendors mentioned here are very good, all the choices credible, but different features between vendors appeal to different people which is why, unlike the IPad, none of the tool vendors have 95% market share) Order one of our saws (gramercy tools). If you like it great. If you don't, why you don't will help inform you on what you should go for next. And if you don't like it return it. We pay return shipping - you won't be out of pocket.

[Mike Holbrook]

That is a very good suggestion Sean. I may just buy the finished saw, even if it is a little pricey, as I want to start work on my new bench ASAP and I am working on 4-5 new or restoration handles as it is. I think the Sash saw alone might cut the tenons for my bench. Or I can turn the 14" Gramercy into my carcass saw with a little more filing and get the LN 16" saw for rip cuts. I could even save $20 by buying the Gramercy Dovetail saw with the Sash saw ... I think Joel is keeping that gramercy handle rasp out of circulation to force my hand towards finished saws... but as unlikely as that may be, fate may be stepping in.

PS
Wow, Joel posted while I was posting. Ok Joel deal. Dang I fell for the "puppy dog close".You would think a dog breeder & trainer would know better. Actually I appreciate the extra thought and work in all the Gramercy tools Joel, thanks for making them available!

[Chris Griggs]

Can I offer a small suggestion. While it is possible to figure out the rough parameters of what you want in a saw (or anything) the best way to go about this is to try out the tool and see if it speaks to you (all of the vendors mentioned here are very good, all the choices credible, but different features between vendors appeal to different people which is why, unlike the IPad, none of the tool vendors have 95% market share) Order one of our saws (gramercy tools). If you like it great. If you don't, why you don't will help inform you on what you should go for next. And if you don't like it return it. We pay return shipping - you won't be out of pocket.

Joel, you guys absolutely have the best return policy out there. You are the only vendor who I have seen encourage people to buy something with the possible intent of returning it. I really appreciate your appreciation for the fact that you are selling items that are in many ways highly personalized to people who often have no way to try before they buy. Most the major retailers will take things back no questions asked, but again, you are the only one I've seen encourage people to buy something to test it out. In fact, didn't you and Rob Lee get into a little friendly forum debate about this a while back? You guys have pretty much identical return policies, but IIRC you had some disagreement about what constitute a customer taking advantage of such generous policies. Okay, I'm rambling now, but it was an interesting discussion, and both you guys made good points.

Anyway, your attitude about returns is why when I see something on The Best Things or other for a little less then what you sell it for I will choose to buy from you. I've been hanging around here for a while now, but I still think it's really cool that you and Rob pop by to directly address potential customer questions and concerns. Next time I'm in NY, PA, or NJ I'm going to have to try to pop over to Brooklyn to chat in person.

Edit: Dang it Mike... Now I really want a Gramercy Sash saw, as if my wish list wasn't long enough! I guess I could sell my LN and buy the kit - I could probably get that thing put together in a single weekend.

[Mike Holbrook]

Chris, just glad I could return the favor! But don't be telling me how fast one could make that kit! I like the home grown Walnut Gramercy makes their handles from and Joel is holding back those dang handle rasps, at least those are my excuses and I'm sticking with them.

Ordered the Gramercy Sash Saw & Dovetail Saw package today, along with a handle making rasp and a split nut driver. I have a good selection of saw rasps. I guess I just need to make that wooden saw vise.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, just glad I could return the favor! But don't be telling me how fast one could make that kit! I like the home grown Walnut Gramercy makes their handles from and Joel is holding back those dang handle rasps, at least those are my excuses and I'm sticking with them.

Ordered the Gramercy Sash Saw & Dovetail Saw package today, along with a handle making rasp and a split nut driver. I have a good selection of saw rasps. I guess I just need to make that wooden saw vise.

Please report back once you get them and have a chance to play with them! I am increasingly intrigued by the sash. I may even go try that filing on a backsaw I already have just to see what it's like. I had an old 12ppi dovetail size saw that I filed with 10 degrees of fleam and 10 rake a while back. It worked quite well for both rips and cross cuts. I have a love/hate thing with hybrid/multipurpose tools. I love the idea of getting things done with as few tools as possible if for no other reason than bench clutter and convenience, but at the same time sometimes get frustrated when something does multiple things well, but isn't great at anything. I'm not sure which category a hybrid filed sash would fall into for me.

Hope you continue to enjoy your tool binge. Keep us posted.

[Mike Holbrook]

I hear you Chris. Joel does some interesting research and makes the case that historically there probably was "one saw to unite all back saws" or at least a couple of them. When you get right down to it the grain in wood does not read the books about how it is suppose to run any way, which might mean such a saw makes even better sense in use than in theory. One might even make a pretty good argument for the opposite side of this coin. Were all or at least some of the various backsaw types created more to get us to spend more money than solve actual issues. Plus as we know, within this thread even, Joel is good with us trying his product out & returning it if we are not happy. Which even if it is a "classic puppy dog close" is still quite generous and helpful.

I go on tool binges when I get to a place where I feel I can justify them in terms of actual money they can make or save for me. As I detail in another post, I am at a point at my home & business where I need a large number of cabinets and soon may need a specific type of chairs & tables.

[Chris Griggs]

I absolutely trust Joel's research. I consistently like what he says in his blog and on this forum. I think he and his company have brought a lot to the modern hand tool trend. I don't know a lot about his background, but I have the impression that he really knows his stuff and has done some serious homework. He's the kind of chap whose brain I would love to sit down and pick for a few hours some day.

Really, I end up shooting just about every piece of wood I xcut anyway and it's rare that I cut tenons really large tenons, so for saws, the hybrid thing really does make a lot of sense. Also, with saws the whole thing about something being too much of a jack of all trades kinda becomes moot since one can always refile them for a dedicated task. I may order Joels kit or alternatively if/when I order Wenzloff kits experiment with the 5 rake/7 fleam of the Gramercey or something similar (5/5, 5/10, 10/10). I'd also like to use a Wenzloff kit to make my own 10" long 16ppi version of the Gramercy dovetail saw. I love its general design, but have no love of saws shorter than 10" and given than I gang cut just about all my dovetails want something coarser then 19ppi (although I hear the Gramercy cuts surprisingly fast). I'd also like to experiment with putting just a touch of fleam in a DT saw, although with the teeth being as small as they are I find DT saws xcut little shoulders just fine with no more than the touch of fleam that comes about through hand filing, so it may just be extraneous. Interestingly, the Badaxe website says that Mark Harrel puts about 5 degrees of fleam in his dedicated rip saws and states that this smooths the cut without slowing it down.

Anyway, your current tool binge is pretty sweet and really even though it seems like a lot at once, if you are setting up a handtool shop it certainly isn't extraneous. Everything you've mentioned purchasing as of late seems to be at the top of my list too. I may be just a tad jealous;).

[Mike Holbrook]

So next time you are in Atlanta you can come try them out Chris. You have the new bench and that is the largest piece of this hand work puzzle, well that & sharpening. I still have lots of catching up to do to get where you are. I was just working on my Wenzloff Half-Back & discovered you can't be to careful with a sharp saw, nicked the very edge of my finger.

[Chris Griggs]

So next time you are in Atlanta you can come try them out Chris. You have the new bench and that is the largest piece of this hand work puzzle, well that & sharpening. I still have lots of catching up to do to get where you are. I was just working on my Wenzloff Half-Back & discovered you can't be to careful with a sharp saw, nicked the very edge of my finger.

Well I don't get out there much unless I need to evacuate for a hurricane, but if I get out there this year I'll definitely look you up. If you get down to NO ever, look me and/or my good buddy Archie (Sigma Stone Gloat Guy) up. His shop is LOADED with vintage planes and saws, a handful of premium planes/saws and a lot of great water stones. We have a blast when we get together there.

A sharp (or dull) saw can give you a nasty cut. It doesn't so much cut as just tear up skin and flesh. I sawed into my thumb with my DT saw a month or so ago when my saw (which was in need of a touch up filing) jumped out of the cut. Nothing serious but OUCH!

[Mike Holbrook]

Sounds good Chris. I have not been to Naulins since my sister went to school there. I'm not saying how long that has been. I think I am past due a visit to a few restaurants in the area and maybe Preservation Hall as well. When I get down there maybe the three of us can have a little wood pardy.

I barely got the very edge of my pointing finger, which I'm sure my teenage daughter appreciates. It was a surprise though. You are right on about the sharp saw kinda grabbing hold & not wanting to let go, unlike most sharp tools.

[Archie England]

Sounds good Chris. I have not been to Naulins since my sister went to school there. I'm not saying how long that has been. I think I am past due a visit to a few restaurants in the area and maybe Preservation Hall as well. When I get down there maybe the three of us can have a little wood pardy.

I barely got the very edge of my pointing finger, which I'm sure my teenage daughter appreciates. It was a surprise though. You are right on about the sharp saw kinda grabbing hold & not wanting to let go, unlike most sharp tools.

Another testimony of a dovetail saw, vintage and not as sharp, jumped track and...before I could stop the motion...cut a jagged rip in my left thumb which had been acting as a tracking guide. I don't like that method much now; and, I've got the scar to prove it. Ouch! Look forward to some good food and wood/tool talk!

Arch,
near NOLA

[Mike Holbrook]

Archie,
That is almost what happened to me. My thumb & forefinger were providing a rest & securing a small piece of wood from falling off as I was testing my new Half-Back handle. Getting the forefinger into the act was just a bad idea. Maybe the little nick I got will convince me to go ahead and make a bench hook for that type operation. The paint is drying on the last coat of paint on my Millers Falls Miter Box, then I can put it together & use it to saw the wood for the bench hook & further protect my digits. I guess my two Gramercy saws are on the way so maybe right after Christmas I will have my own dovetail saw to break in. Might be a good idea to have the bench hook made by then as we all know those saws are going to have to be put through their paces. I just happened to identify some plywood & Cherry a friend gave me that were just begging to take some new shape.

Sounds like a pardy in the making Archie!

[Mike Holbrook]

Back on topic...The thing that I think convinced me to go with the Gramercy saws has to do with starting the cut & finishing it. As the the posts just above this testify it is easy to find a finger at the start or finish of a cut. Even if one misses all digits the dancing hand saw can certainly mar work. Being relatively new to these higher level hand saws, how easy the saw starts and how cleanly it cuts takes a higher place in the decision making process than how fast they cut. After all I am not into hand tools because speed is my thing. Certainly when cutting dovetails a smooth start is a major bonus so although I intellectually might prefer a longer, larger toothed saw I think I will do better work with the shorter, lighter, smaller toothed Gramercy Dovetail Saw. I am pretty sure the same principal will hold true for the Gramercy Sash Saw. From what I have read from other posters these saws are very easy to start but sacrifice very little in speed of cut, which is a rare but very beneficial feature designed into these saws.

[daniel lane]

Back on topic...The thing that I think convinced me to go with the Gramercy saws has to do with starting the cut & finishing it. As the the posts just above this testify it is easy to find a finger at the start or finish of a cut. Even if one misses all digits the dancing hand saw can certainly mar work. Being relatively new to these higher level hand saws, how easy the saw starts and how cleanly it cuts takes a higher place in the decision making process than how fast they cut. After all I am not into hand tools because speed is my thing. Certainly when cutting dovetails a smooth start is a major bonus so although I intellectually might prefer a longer, larger toothed saw I think I will do better work with the shorter, lighter, smaller toothed Gramercy Dovetail Saw. I am pretty sure the same principal will hold true for the Gramercy Sash Saw. From what I have read from other posters these saws are very easy to start but sacrifice very little in speed of cut, which is a rare but very beneficial feature designed into these saws.

Okay, I'm resurrecting a slightly old thread, but Mike's last post is exactly where I am at the moment. I currently have the LV dovetail saw, and frankly I must be in the minority that doesn't like it. For the life of me, I cannot start this thing, and I've been trying extremely hard to put zero weight on the toe when starting. It's jumped and bitten me or the wood at least 3 times, and I really don't want to be convinced to stop hand dovetailing, so...new saw on the horizon. I've been researching heavily, and a search for info on the LN saw led me to this thread. However, I'm seriously considering the Gramercy after reading this thread! I am still weighing the Bad Axe saws as well. Anyone have an opinion on dovetail saws? :p

Seriously, though, I am looking for insight. I'm primarily looking for something easier to start, and I'm looking at a short-term need of dovetailing 4/4 stock and 1/4 stock (not for the same joint, mind you). I'm thinking those are very different and I may be advised to have 2 saws, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.


daniel

[Tony Shea]

Okay, I'm resurrecting a slightly old thread, but Mike's last post is exactly where I am at the moment. I currently have the LV dovetail saw, and frankly I must be in the minority that doesn't like it. For the life of me, I cannot start this thing, and I've been trying extremely hard to put zero weight on the toe when starting. It's jumped and bitten me or the wood at least 3 times, and I really don't want to be convinced to stop hand dovetailing, so...new saw on the horizon. I've been researching heavily, and a search for info on the LN saw led me to this thread. However, I'm seriously considering the Gramercy after reading this thread! I am still weighing the Bad Axe saws as well. Anyone have an opinion on dovetail saws? :p

Seriously, though, I am looking for insight. I'm primarily looking for something easier to start, and I'm looking at a short-term need of dovetailing 4/4 stock and 1/4 stock (not for the same joint, mind you). I'm thinking those are very different and I may be advised to have 2 saws, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.


daniel

First off, which LV configuration do you have, the 14tpi or the 20tpi? I bought the 20tpi for my girlfriend as she also had a little trouble starting saws cleanly, specifically my LN 15ppi which has a zero deg rake angle. This 20tpi saw really starts in the cut without any trouble at all, I'd be really surprised if this is the saw you're having trouble with.

I really like the LV saw when working real thin material, 1/4" or smaller. It leaves a very nice surface and strikes a good balance of speed and accuracy in stock this size. But for 95% of my work with dovetails, the LN saw gets the call. This thing really buzzes through the stock fast and just feels good all around. But where you are having trouble starting, I would think that this is not the saw for you. You'd probably get used to it after a bit more practice but think you'll not care for the saw right out of the box due to hard start.

After reading LV's site, it looks as though both the 14tpi and 20 tpi have rake angles of 14*. This saw should be much easier to start than LN's even with the similar tooth count.

Another issue you might have is that the saw is still really fresh and has too much bite. With a bit more use you might find it starts a whole lot easier.

But if you're dead set on a new saw I would highly recommend you look at a saw with higher tooth count and a little more rake angle than the Lie Nielsen version.

[Chris Griggs]

Daniel,

Its unlikely that any of the other saws you mention will be easier to start. As Tony said that LV saw has the rake relaxed 14 degrees (meaning the teeth lean back a bit). This is more rake than most saws which means its likely going to be easier to start then the others you mention.

What kind of wood are you practicing on? Is your wood clamped securely in a vise?

Anyway, I really believe you need just a little more practice. Go beyond just not putting any weight down on the toe, actually lift up a little. Imagine that you are just trying to score the surface of the wood with the tips of the teeth...less is more here. It's a challenge at first, but it will very quickly become second nature...

[daniel lane]

Actually, I have both the 14 and the 20 tpi. I'm using the 14, though, in 4/4 poplar. I used it once in 4/4 pine, but decided that was a wood I wanted to tackle after some more practice. The wood is always securely clamped in my Moxon vise.

As for practice, Chris, I really believe that I need a LOT more practice! I appreciate the gentle phrasing, but I'm sure I suck at this and intend to keep working on it. (I debated posting a photo of my first attempt, but I'm not sure I can bear that much ridicule...) Problem has been that if I can't even get the saw started (it's the only saw I have a problem with, by the way), my practice sessions tend to end quickly. Completely different uses, I know, but it's sooooooo much easier to start my Disston D8 5.5tpi rip saw, and that's not got such a relaxed rake!

Anyway, I will continue to practice and I'll see about trying the 20tpi LV, but I'm still going to window shop! :p



daniel

[Chris Griggs]

Are you tipping the saw forward? A lot of folks (myself included, sometimes) start dovetails this way, since it allows you to follow the line back toward yourself. It makes the saw harder to start though. You may have already done this, but if not, try starting the saw with it perfectly perpendicular to the board (start straight across the endgrain) and if you still have problems try tilting the saw back so that you are cutting with the grain.

I think Tony is right to that your dovetail saw, being new, probably had more "bite" than your Disston. Also, because of how you cut with rip handsaw you are cutting with the grain already so even though the saw rake is not relaxed the rake as it cuts in relation to the grain is relaxed (hope that makes sense)

[Jim Neeley]

Daniel,

I too started with the LN dovetail saw and fought with trying to start it. Then I tried Rob Cosman's dovetail saw and it was as if a miracle happened. There are two significant differences in these two saws: tooth count and set>

First, while the L-N has 15tpi throughout the saw, the first couple of inches of the saw have 22tpi and a relaxed rake to avoid grabbing when starting. Then, the main body of the saw has an aggressive 15TPI for plowing through the cut. I've tried alternating cuts between the saws and even now, the difference is amazing. I've played with a friend's progressive pitch (16TPI-9TPI but IMO the 16 doesn't do enough to ease the start and the 9ti are too coarse. Perhaps if I were dovetailing 8/4 stock it'd be a better choice but I haven't tried that.

Second, Rob's set is less than the L-N. Rob's saw has a quoted 0.002 set on each side compared with a L-N quoted 0.003. I have not measured the set on either saw but in practice, the difference is substantial to me and, as long as it doesn't bind, less set makes the saw "want" to cut straight. This *does* mean you cannot correct once you're a bit into the cut but by then you should be right on, right? :). Keep in mind this narrow set only works with well dried wood; green or wet wood may well bind.

Rob's saw is much more expensive than the L-N but, for me, it made the learning curve to be productive virtually disappear. I recognize and respect those out there that have developed the skill over the years to cut perfect dovetails with any saw (even junk or a hacksaw) but I do not aspire to compete with them. Between my work and family my shop time is very limited and very precious to me and I just want to be able to cut good dovetails.

IMO, if you are in the position to justify the expense of this saw and get someone to show you how to cut them (I used Rob's online video forum but there are also other ways), cutting dovetails isn't all that hard to do, it just takes proper stock preparation and practice.

YMMV...

Jim


Okay, I'm resurrecting a slightly old thread, but Mike's last post is exactly where I am at the moment. I currently have the LV dovetail saw, and frankly I must be in the minority that doesn't like it. For the life of me, I cannot start this thing, and I've been trying extremely hard to put zero weight on the toe when starting. It's jumped and bitten me or the wood at least 3 times, and I really don't want to be convinced to stop hand dovetailing, so...new saw on the horizon. I've been researching heavily, and a search for info on the LN saw led me to this thread. However, I'm seriously considering the Gramercy after reading this thread! I am still weighing the Bad Axe saws as well. Anyone have an opinion on dovetail saws? :p

Seriously, though, I am looking for insight. I'm primarily looking for something easier to start, and I'm looking at a short-term need of dovetailing 4/4 stock and 1/4 stock (not for the same joint, mind you). I'm thinking those are very different and I may be advised to have 2 saws, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.


daniel

[Ron Bontz]

The nice thing about these threads is that you can learn just by reading them. As a novice, playing/ experimenting with different saws and plate thicknesses, I think a lot if not most comes down to preference between thick and thin. The sharpening aspect, to me, seems to have a direct impact on those preferences. But just MHO. Thanks for posting.

[Derek Cohen]

When starting the saw cut one has a choice of three methods from which to choose. The “Rob Cosman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIgNel0H_I)” method is to start at the far edge of the board, saw a slight bevel, and then saw horizontal. The advantage here is that the blade gains a purchase in the wood for sawing. The downside is that a saw with zero rake will get stuck in the kerf.
The “Joel Moskowitz (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/gt/pdf/GT-DSAW9XX_INST.pdf)” method is to start on the horizontal and cut the wood evenly. The saw here is easier to start than with Rob’s method.
Finally, the “Adam Cherubini (http://www.adamcherubini.com/Dovetail_Saws.html)” method is to start the cut on the near edge so that one can follow the two adjoining marked lines, and then level the saw. This also effectively reduced the rake of the teeth and makes for an easy start. The downside is that a low bench can make the stance uncomfortable.

The Rob Cosman ...
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m736c552e.jpg

The Joel Moskowitz ...
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m586de7e0.jpg

The Adam Cherubini ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg

Link to article on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Vandiver]

Okay, I'm resurrecting a slightly old thread, but Mike's last post is exactly where I am at the moment. I currently have the LV dovetail saw, and frankly I must be in the minority that doesn't like it. For the life of me, I cannot start this thing, and I've been trying extremely hard to put zero weight on the toe when starting. It's jumped and bitten me or the wood at least 3 times, and I really don't want to be convinced to stop hand dovetailing, so...new saw on the horizon. I've been researching heavily, and a search for info on the LN saw led me to this thread. However, I'm seriously considering the Gramercy after reading this thread! I am still weighing the Bad Axe saws as well. Anyone have an opinion on dovetail saws? :p

Seriously, though, I am looking for insight. I'm primarily looking for something easier to start, and I'm looking at a short-term need of dovetailing 4/4 stock and 1/4 stock (not for the same joint, mind you). I'm thinking those are very different and I may be advised to have 2 saws, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.


daniel


It's probably not the saw!:)

[daniel lane]

It's probably not the saw!:)

Touché, sir. :)

[daniel lane]

When starting the saw cut one has a choice of three methods from which to choose.

Derek, once again, you've provided a surprisingly clarifying post. (I once tried to PM you about something like that, btw, but your inbox was full.) I'm doing the Rob Cosman approach. I will try the others before I consider anything else, I never really thought it would make a big difference (and have since been educated differently).


Thanks,

daniel

[Jim Matthews]

I wax the plate of my "Jack" saw - it never binds or feels heavy.

Thinner might be better if you're cutting deep in hardwoods, but it's like a 16 year old learning to drive in a Ferrari -
something is going to get bent.

[Mike Brady]

Don't let 'em get you down, Daniel. I recently tried the same LV saw belonging to my benchmate while attending a class. I have saws from Wenzloff and Lie-Nielsen, that cut fine for me, but his LV saw was rough as a cob and hard to start. Even the instructor, who is famous but will remain nameless in this context, recommended he return it. Having read negative reviews of every brand of saw, I have concluded that saws can vary significantly from maker to maker, depending on who actually sharpened it. Perhaps you got a "Monday" or "Friday" saw. Ultimately you will be able to correct saw problems as you develop your sharpening skills.

[Chris Vandiver]

Touché, sir. :)


There's more than one way to skin a cat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibyTMTLjaq8

[Chris Griggs]

I hope Daniel doesn't think anyone is trying to get down on him. There is always the possibility he got a post-martini-luncheon filed saw. I just would hate to see him go and spend a bunch a money on another saw and then have the same problem. He has two and its pretty unlikely that both are misfiled. Keep trying with both, if you think the saw is misfiled call LV and talk to them about it. I've never used the LV saws, but by most account they perform on par with other saw makers saws. Perhaps, try to find someone near you who has another dovetail saw that they know is properly filed and use it side by side with your LV. That will tell you pretty quickly if the issue is the saw.

[bob blakeborough]

Isn't it Mike Wenzloff that suggests setting any new saw with what he calls "the paper trick"? By wrapping the saw with a standard piece of white paper, covering the teeth in a single thickness per side, then squeezing the teeth of the offending saw in a vise, the result is perfect set as the paper will not compress so the set will be equal to the thickness of the paper...

*edit*

I found the link where I read this...

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/get-a-consistent-set-on-your-saw-with-paper

Sounds like it might be something worth trying... If the saw is set aggressively, this may help smooth things out for you...

[daniel lane]

Chris (V), thanks - I'll watch that a few times, and at least it brings the magnetic guide option into this thread (from an earlier thread started by Hans). Chris (G), I don't think people are trying to get down on me - I know my hand-dovetailing skills need a LOT of work, but I also know that I've never had so much trouble starting a saw. That said, I have only used the 14tpi...I'm a bit embarassed to admit that I haven't used the 20tpi, mostly because I didn't think it would be a good choice in 4/4 wood, but also because it had gotten buried in the workshop. (Tool organization is another thread.) I'll try it out and see where I am with it, but the short of it is that I don't know nor am I saying that I have two misfiled saws.

Putting it all out there, here are my first (left) and second (right) hand dovetail attempts. #1 (pine) was so tight I cracked the wood putting it together, and #2 (poplar) was better, but also in thinner wood. Both are obviously not quite what I'm looking for. :o

233352

Regardless, I will try out the 20tpi and see how I do, plus continue to practice, practice, practice... And as I said before, I'm still going to window shop! :D


daniel

[Chris Griggs]

That pretty much how my first and second dovetails looked.... and 3rd and 4th and 5th...etc... eventually though, you get the point where it just another series of steps to follow....

I think trying the 20tpi saw will give you a lot of insight.

[David Weaver]

You've done well, daniel. The problems you need to fix are minor. I think mine were probably worse looking than that, and after I did them I had no idea why I had gaps.

I can't say much about the saws, all of the smaller saws I've put together are very hard starting (a lot of hang and no rake or almost no rake), except for one or two where I filed a lot of rake on the first few inches of teeth. It didn't take long for me to prefer the saws that are hard starting, though I did feel like disaster was right around the corner using them the first few times.

[George Beck]

The Gramercy Saw was my first thinner plate saw. It is also my "go to" for most general sawing on thinner wood. It is true that thinner saws are easier to use and start. Note however that the plate height on the Gramercy saw is also smaller. I like to use the thinnest kerf (plate thickness) I can given the depth of cut and the plate height. I cut fine dovetails for boxes with a Klauss and Pedder .012 thick 20 tpi saw. However this saw plate is only 26mm or about 1in cutting max compared to the 1 1/4 on the gramercy and 1 3/4 on the LN. I would find anything over 2 in (tenon saw) less than .025 a bit "bindey". This is a problem on japanese saws for me. They have a very thin plate (some .010) yet they are often as wide as 2.25 inches. I know the pull method compensates but it pretty easy to kink a saw or damage a tooth on a deep cut.
My point or rather my opinion is not to get caught up in "Thin plate good, thick plate bad" thinking. It depends on the cut. If you are making little dovetails in 1/2 thick lumber as I do or tiny dovetails in 1/4 lumber (drawers in small boxes) you want as thin a plate and as small a plate as you can get to produce a thin kerf. A .025 kerf is pretty big on 1/4" dovetail. On the other hand, if you are cutting 5/8" x 2" tenons for a bench you want the stiffest blade you can still easily push. I find this to be between .025 and .032. Most makers strike a happy compromise and somewhere around .025 and plate height of 2" is about right. Joel's saw is thinner but also less cutting depth.
Just my thoughts

George

[Mike Holbrook]

I ended up with both the Gramercy saws and love them both. I especially appreciate the versatility of the Sash Saw. I think if there is one saw that can go from cutting dovetails to cutting large tenons it is that saw. I found both saws to have a greater similarity to the Japanese Silky pruning and woodworking saws I had used for years. As others have said they do require a lighter touch. More recently I have accumulated a good collection of not nearly as sharp older hand and panel saws that I am learning to sharpen. Once I started using those larger toothed saws I found it harder to transition back to the thinner plate, smaller toothed saws. I have to remind myself to lighten up my grip and the force I impart to the saw. I also read a good article on saw handles and how fairly small differences in how they are hung effects how the saw functions. Some handle hangs are much more sensitive to the direction and amount of pressure applied to them. I am still digesting that news but have found it helpful.

The Gramercy saws are very easy for me to start if I don't try to horse them. The smaller thinner plate saws seem to melt through wood compared to the larger saws. It feels weird after using larger toothed saws and I have a tendency to try to apply more pressure in an ill advised attempt to regain the rougher tactile feed back that the big saws provide. Another thing I have found from trying out lots of saws sharpened and handled in many different ways is how different a saw with a little or no set cuts compared to a saw with a large amount of set. One saw I bought was sanded along the teeth. It requires more pressure to overcome the greater friction and when it sinks to 1/4 to 1/2" into the wood it stops dead. That saw will soon get more set. Many saws have too much set but the other extreme can cause a saw to not want to function at all. The recent trend for manufacturers of better saws seems to be to err more on the side of less than more tooth set. If one becomes use to larger saws with aggressive handle sets and considerable tooth set it can feel much different when one picks up a smaller backsaw with very little set and smaller teeth. The transition between the great variety of tactile feed back between the larger and smaller saws can be quite a challenge to those who have not made that transition enough times to adapt without having to rethink the process.

I took a class or sharpening saws at Highland Woodworking. The instructor suggested to think about pulling the handle on a hand crank lawn mower when starting a saw. I find that if I can reproduce that feel without applying too much pressure my saw starts easier. A hesitant jerky, "careful" stroke can end up causing the saw to jump more than just going ahead and making a smoother longer pull. It isn't as much a matter of the force as the feel. Certainly a short jerky pull isn't going to get that mower running either.

The challenge in hand tools often becomes developing the feel for using them in a large assortment of situations. The greater finesse required is often both the challenge and reward. I am finding this aspect much different than using powered tools. The learning process has much more to do with tactile feel and adapting physically than simply figuring out how to adjust a larger assortment of tools, attachments and jigs to accomplish a given goal.