Need reassurance re: holdfasts

[Jake Elkins]

LOML got me a pair of Gramercy holdfasts for Christmas. I have been looking forward to having a pair of these since I (almost) finished my bench (nearly 4.5" thick). When she wasn't looking, I took one out real quick for a test drive. Of the half dozen or so holes I tried these in (3/4 inch - drilled first with 3/4 router bit, finished last couple inches with a paddle bit), it only kinda worked in one. I whacked 'em pretty hard. Now, I know the website talks about roughening these with sandpaper, or undercutting the bottoms, but I just didn't have the time, as this was a quickly executed covert operation. Is my bench too thick? Can anyone dispel my fears, and assure me that with enough tinkering I can get these to work? Again, I've been really excited to have these.

Thanks -

Jake

[Joel Moskowitz]

Hit them with some sandpaper like it says on the website and I would think they will probably work. If not counterbore from the bottom - that will definitely work.

[Ryan Baker]

I have a set of the Gramercy holdfasts. In a top about 1-3/4" thick, they work like a charm. I have some other holes (with a rail under them) that are more like 5.5" thick. The holdfasts basically won't grab in those at all. Those were just 3/4" holes and I did not try roughing them up or any other tricks. My guess is that you can improve things some, but it probably won't really be as good as the shallower holes. Another thing you might try (if possible in your case) would be to slightly enlarge the holes over 3/4" inch to give the holdfast more room to wedge. The best thing would probably be to counterbore away the bottom of the holes so that they look shallower to the holdfasts.

If you get them working well in the thick top, let us know what you did that works best.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

My top is about 5 1/2" thick, and the designated holdfast hole in the middle of the bench is counterbored from the bottom a couple of inches. I frequently use them in the regular dog holes, however, with no issues. Don't be shy about really giving them a good bash to set them in place.

What material is your top? Mine is pressure treated Southern Yellow Pine. Harder wood might not deform and grab as much...

[Steve Branam]

The sandpaper does the trick. I have 3 pairs, and they all needed it (also some had a bit of machine oil residue). My main bench is 4" thick southern yellow pine, my portable bench is 1 3/4" poplar, and my bench-on-bench is 1 3/4" poplar. All have 3/4" dog holes, no undercutting necessary. All it takes is spinning the shank around a few times while wrapped in sandpaper. Then you should be able to bang them in and lift the whole bench off the floor with them. Believe me, they'll work! No more than 60 seconds of tinkering required.

[george wilson]

I'd file some little grooves into the back side of the holdfasts. Myself,I'd use checkering files. You could use files that are for repairing threads. Probably available in auto parts stores. They will make a series of neat grooves for you pretty quickly.

The holdfasts DO have to tilt sideways to bind. A thick bench top won't let them tilt enough. My hand forged hold fast never has had trouble grabbing in my 4" bench tops,but it isn't as smooth as a commercial holdfast.

[Paul Cahill]

+1 on the sandpaper and a really good whack. I hate to admit it, but I gave them a coat of wax when I saw some rust spots while waiting to finish my bench. The wax worked great at what it does best - a nice slick surface. Fortunately a couple of sandings took care of it. I still get a kick out of using them - the fact that they are so simple mechanically and work so well.

Paul

[jason thigpen]

The Wood Whisperer interviewed the Schwarz recently about workbenches. One thing covered was holdfasts and top thickness. They talked about how holdfasts really don't work as well in tops over 4" thick. Schwarz recommended couterboring the bottom of the dogholes to effectively reduce top thickness.

[Zach Dillinger]

I have the Grammercy holdfasts. In my benchtop, which is 4" thick birch, they needed some file work to grab properly. I used a triangular file and, with some quick and dirty filing, cut a few grooves where the shaft is most likely to interact with the benchtop. I also grabbed some 60 grit sandpaper and roughed up the whole shaft. Haven't had one holding problem with them since then.

[Matt Meiser]

My top is 1-3/4 thick and they work great in that.

I'm hardly a neander--mine see their most frequent use when I'm using my Domino but I love them. I keep a pile of small blocks under my bench that I put between the holdfast pad and the workpiece.

[Michael Peet]

Another +1 for the sandpaper. The Gramercy holdfasts work fine in my 4.25" thick top.

Mike

[Michael Sobik]

Sandpaper, you can use something very coarse. I've also found that hitting them with a deadblow hammer is much more effective than hitting them with a metal hammer or wooden mallet.

[Chris Friesen]

Me too..shot-filled deadblow hammer works really well. The LV cabinetmaker's mallet works pretty well too.

[Jake Elkins]

Thanks everyone for the reassurances. I will be sure to take a thorough sanding when "I get" the holdfasts. I haven't yet put any finish on the bench - should I try to avoid oil in the dog holes (i.e., plug 'em up first), or should I turn a 3/4 dowel down a bit, glue sandpaper on it, and rough up the holes after a "caution to the wind" approach to oiling the top? The paddle bit already cut a bit of rifling in some of the holes. The top is walnut, btw.

I'll let everyone know how it worked out (of course with pics). Thanks again -

[Tony Shea]

Jake,

Like has been said you should def rough them up with sandpaper or file small grooves in them. But the best method to get them to really hold is to counter bore the bottom of the holes. I wouldn't be afraid to make the counter bore a good solid 2". You have a very thick top and the counter bore is of no consequence for anything else. You'll be amazed at the holding power of these holdfasts in a thinner looking hole. I wouldn't worry about getting some drips of finish in the holes or anything like that. JUST COUNTER BORE and be done with it.

[Jake Elkins]

Jake,

JUST COUNTER BORE and be done with it.

Will do. With the stipulation that I don't want to flip this thing over ever again (~500#), what would be the best method to do this? Normally I would build a small jig for the router, but I will not want to use a router (or most any other tool) while upside down. Just get close with a 1" forstner bit? A stepped bit? I've got four rows of holes on this thing, so choosing the appropriate method may not be such a trivial task.

Thanks

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A proper counterboring bit would be nice, but is probably overkill, and I'm not sure I've seen one this large, and if it was, it'd be heck of expensive. The "oops arbor" Lee Valley and other places sell might work - lets you use one holesaw as the guide, and a second one to cut the larger hole, but I don't know if it'd work with a hole as small as 3/4".

If I didn't want to flip the drill over, I'd use a drill press or whatever to drill an appropriately sized slightly larger hole in a piece of scrap stock, and the screw that piece with a hole to the underside of the bench (it's the bottom, who cares if there's a some small screw holes down there) That would help you keep a fortsner, or even a paddle bit aligned enough to start the holes.

A stepped bit like a unibit could work to - at least enough to get the circumference drilled enough to let a paddle or forstner bit do it's thing.

You could also screw a dowel or plug onto a batten, push the dowel into the hole, clamp the batten down to the bench, cut the bottom flush with a flush cut saw. That gives you a solid surface to drill with your bit of choice.

Those are first ideas to come to mind with me. Even if you're using a brace to drill the holes, remember to wear eye protection . . . laying on your back drilling holes above you and having chips and dust rain down into your eyes is not a great way to start your day. DAMHIKT.

You could also plug the holes by pushing a dowel into them

[Tony Shea]

Drill the larger diameter hole through a peice of plywood or scrap wood. Hold this relatively close to center over your dog hole and go at it with a cordless/corded drill. Doesn't need to be perfect.

[Jake Elkins]

Status update: I took the new holdfasts out to the shop, roughed 'em up good with some 40 grit (axially, per TFWW), and they work great. I can even get a good hold with just hand pressure. No counterbores required. Now, I think I need a couple more pairs. Thanks again for everyone's help and reassurances.

[Jim Koepke]

Now, I think I need a couple more pairs.

My biggest regret with buying a pair of holdfasts is having not bought two pair.

jtk

[Jerome Hanby]

I hear you. I got JR to make me a pair a while back and as soon as I got them I was wishing I had ordered two pairs.


My biggest regret with buying a pair of holdfasts is having not bought two pair.

jtk

[Dave Lehnert]

The Gramercy holdfasts are an example of how simple can be better. The holdfasts that are cast are not worth anything.

[Bob Jones]

Mine work great in my benches 5in thick legs after I scuffed them with sandpaper. Be careful to sand around them - not up and down them. I want a second pair too.

[Jack Curtis]

Why all this desire for a second pair? What do you need 3 or 4 holdfasts to hold fast?

Jack

[Jerome Hanby]

Holding more than one thing at a time (possibly on more than one bench), one (or more) to use on a deadman, they are just cool and more holdfasts equates to more cool <g>