Planes for cutting grooves and dadoes?

[Michael Ray Smith]

I've found myself cutting a lot of grooves and dadoes lately. My current method is to mark the sides with a gauge, cut a fixed-depth kerf on each side with a stair saw (I now have one stair saw filed for ripping and one filed for crosscutting), and take out the waste with a chisel and/or small router plane. It works, but it's time consuming, and the results are not quite as crisp as I'd like. So I'm thinking about other tools. Actually, I'm DREAMING about a small Veritas plow plane, but I've been spending too much money on my little hobby lately, so I'm THINKING about less expensive alternatives. I don't mind reconditioning old tools. In fact, I enjoy it as much as I enjoy using them.

So. . . any suggestions?

[Zach Dillinger]

Well, you need a plow plane for grooves. Unless all your grooving is close to one edge, then you could probably get away with drawer bottom planes. As for dadoes, I much prefer the method you already use to dado planes. I think its faster to work this way and, frankly, dado planes are a pain to set up and sharpening means you get to set them up frequently. If you can saw to a line (with or without a guide), have sharp chisels, and know how to use a router plane, I think you'll find this method vastly superior.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Thanks, Zach. On that "saw to a line" thing -- for both grooves and dadoes, I cheat. I mark the sides as deeply as I can with a gauge and sometimes use a sharp knife to cut the line even deeper. Then I use the knife to make another cut on the inside of the line, angling down at about 45 degrees, so that the result is a small groove with a half-V shape on the waste side of the original line. I use that to start the kerf with the stair saw. The problem with stair saws is that you can't easily see where you're cutting, so you have to get the kerf in the right place by feel. I've thought about fitting the stair saws with blades that extend a little beyond the wooden frame so I can see where it's going, but so far I haven't bothered.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A plough plane is one of those things you wonder how you lived without. A cheaper option might be to look for an old Record.

Yeah, I'd do what you're doing for dadoes, and focus on removing the bulk of the waste with a chisel and just cleaning up with the router plane. If you're sawing the sides with the stair saw, however, you could remove the waste with a plough plane or appropriately sized rabbet plane, as I'd imagine that the sawed sides solve any potential tearout issues.

I'm curious what you find a pain to set up with dado planes, Zach - I've limited experience with them, but I didn't find them more difficult to set up than any other wooden, wedged plane. But the ones I got to try where already tuned well enough.

Is there anyway you can use your stair saw with a thin batten to guide the initial cut? Seems like it might be a little quicker.

[Mark Wyatt]

I like old wooden plough planes for cutting grooves. And, I just love the way they look.

215896

[Michael Ray Smith]

Joshua -- That's not a bad idea. I'll play around with it. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Jim Koepke]

Planes for cutting grooves and dadoes?

I like my Stanley 45s for cutting grooves.

Keep an eye on the auction site. Often there is one listed at a buy it know that could be mixed parts, but will work for a low price. There was a body, rods, skate, a blade or two and fence recently that was in the $60 range. If there weren't already five in my shop, I might have asked the wife if I could spend a little money.

For dados I mark and cut with chisels. To help avoid edge tear out, use a chisel a little smaller than the width of the dado desired.

With a good sharp chisel I can often peel out some fairly thick shavings. If you want the bottom smooth, then use a router plane.

If one is doing stopped dados, then a dado plane could end up being more work.

If you do use a dado plane, you will want to attach a baton to guide it unless you are better than the average wood worker at keeping on line with a plane.

jtk

[Mark Baldwin III]

Thanks, Zach. On that "saw to a line" thing -- for both grooves and dadoes, I cheat. I mark the sides as deeply as I can with a gauge and sometimes use a sharp knife to cut the line even deeper. Then I use the knife to make another cut on the inside of the line, angling down at about 45 degrees, so that the result is a small groove with a half-V shape on the waste side of the original line. I use that to start the kerf with the stair saw.
I don't know if I'd call that cheating. I mark just about all of my cross cuts deeply and then use a chisel to open up the line on the waste side. I call it smart :)

[Ryan Baker]

I don't know if I'd call that cheating. I mark just about all of my cross cuts deeply and then use a chisel to open up the line on the waste side. I call it smart :)

I also call it smart. There's no cheating about that. That's the way you are SUPPOSED to be doing it.

[Jon Toebbe]

An old Record 043 might be just the ticket for your grooving needs. Patrick Leah had a bucket load of them a few months back -- maybe shoot him an email and see if he still has any lying about? I don't own one myself, since I got the Veritas Small Plow for Christmas last year, but have used one. They're perfect for typical grooving work in 3/4" stock, for me at least. A Stanley 45 (or Wards Master 45 -- same plane, just branded to sell at Montgomery Wards) is another good option. The "off-brand" planes on eBay are either absurdly more expensive due to their collectibility, or a good bargain due to their obscurity.

That said, you can have my southpaw Veritas when you claw it from my dead, backward hand. ;)

[Michael Ray Smith]

Joshua -- I tried your idea of using a thin wooden batten to guide the stair saw blade to get it started. I simply registered the blade against the guide. I worked okay, but the sides of the teeth dragged along the guide. Well, every other tooth, of course, due to the slight set I have on them. Like I said, it worked okay, but it also gave me another idea. I set aside the thin stock I was using as a batten, and picked up a scrap of 2" x 2" red oak to use as a guide, with the body of the saw (or handle or frame or whatever you call the wood part of a stair saw) registered against it. Turns out that the side of the body was already parallel to the blade (or close enough), so that was good. But the screws that hold the blade in place stood proud of the body, and that wasn't so good. So I recessed the screw heads on one side (the left side, since I'm right-handed), to let the body of the saw slide against the guide. It works pretty well. Not enough to make me stop dreaming about the small Veritas plow plane, but it's not bad.

Jon -- thanks for the info on various vintage plow planes. I'm going to keep my eyes open for a bargain. As I said, I'm a righty, so there's no need to lock away your left-handed Veritas, at least not on my account!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If the teeth are cutting into the batten in a way that makes it not work as well as you'd like, my first call would be to put a small chamfer on the bottom of the batten. Depends how much set you have, I guess, but a little bit there should do the trick. I'd imagine that you wouldn't need the batten too long - a thin strip of quarter inch wood just to get things started, and then the saw should follow the kerf if you're careful.

[Bill Rhodus]

Michael, did you make your stair saw? I made one and was not satisfied with it because it is difficult to see the saw to cut to the line and when using a batten I had to offset it to allow for the thickness of the saw body. To resolve this issue I made a "dado saw" of my own design that places the saw plate to the side of the body. This allows me to place the batten directly on the line and the batten keeps the cut square. The photo I am attaching utilizes a saw plate from a Stanley crosscut saw and will cut on the push and pull so I made a hand grip on either end to allow me to turn the saw end for end to cut both sides of the dado by merely relocating the batten. The saw looks unconventional but works well.

[Bill Rhodus]

Forgot to mention the saw also is adjustable for depth of cut. This used to be something of an issue when I used to use a large back saw for dado cuts.

[Michael Ray Smith]

I thought about that, too, and I'll try it out. After all, the first quick attempt with just a piece of thin stock worked pretty well, but sometimes I can't leave well enough alone, and other idea occurred to me. I think that adding a chamfer will make it work even better except when the saw is set for a very shallow kerf. I can set it so that as little as 1/8" of the blade is exposed -- essentially nothing but the teeth themselves -- and that doesn't leave much room for the batten, whether or not I add a chamfer. But that's okay because I started out with just one item in my bag of tricks, and now I have three. That's not too shabby. (And if Santa would just bring me that Veritas plow plane. . . )

[Zach Dillinger]

Joshua,

I just find dado planes touchy. You've got to get the knicker sharp, but you've got to be careful not to change the outside width in the process. Then you've got to get the iron set. Then, set the the knickers perfectly in line with the iron. Add in frequent sharpening, and therefore frequent removal / readjusting of the knicker, and you've got a pain in the tail. I'd rather just cut with a saw and go at it with chisels and a router plane from there.

Michael,

Cutting the line deeply with a knife to provide a groove for the saw isn't cheating; its just good sense. I might suggest you try a sash saw in place of your staircase saw. Easier, at least for me, to control, and see the line while cutting. Even with a sash saw, I sometimes use a batten for the sawing, just depends on how I'm feeling that day.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Hey, that's pretty cool. Really weird looking, but cool. Sorta reminds me of the cartoon one of my kids used to watch -- Catdog.

I have made my own stair saw from a cheap dovetail that I had lying around. It looked something like yours, but with only one handle and guides on both sides of the blade. Yours has an advantage because you can see one side of the blade, so you can see where you're cutting. I addressed that by leaving an inch or so of the blade extending in front of and behind the guides. It worked okay, but it was a bit heavy.

Now I'm using a couple of vintage stair saws, one Disston and one Bishop, one filed for crosscutting and the other for ripping. I like them better than my homemade one, except for the part about not being able to see where I'm cutting.

[Michael Ray Smith]

I use the stair saw so I can get a kerf with exactly the depth I want. Obviously, that's just swapping one problem for another.

[James Owen]

If you're interested in an alternative to the stair saw, take a look at a Japanese Azibiki (mortising saw). It is a Ryoba-style ("two sided") saw, with rip teeth on one side and crosscut on the other. The business end is generally between about 3 and almost 5 inches long, depending on which size you buy, and is slightly curved along the length of the cutting edges, to make it easier to start a cut in the middle of a board.

I use mine with a shop-made wooden saw guide -- for both dados and sliding dovetails -- to cut the walls, use a chisel to remove most of the waste, and then finish up with a router plane to smooth the bottoms and get even depth. The relatively small business end makes it very easy to see where you are cutting and to control or shift the cut as necessary.

Japan Woodworker sells 4 different sizes, running about $33 to $46. I haven't specifically looked, but I suspect that the other companies specialising in Japanese tools also sell at least one size of Azibiki.

[Jack Curtis]

Azibiki are good. +1

Jack

[Bill Moser]

That's awesome! Dr. Dolittle's push-me-pull-you (the double-headed llama) in the form of a saw :D

[Michael Ray Smith]

Joshua, just to let you know that your batten suggestion has turned out to be the best way I've found to saw the kerfs quickly and accurately. Instead of using a piece of thin stock wood, I found a stainless steel straightedge that's smooth enough on the edge to let the blade slide against it without catching and thin enough to use even when the blade is set as shallow as possible. Thanks!!