Workshop Floor Question

[Maurice Ungaro]

Okay, I'm fast approaching the time when I will be able to populate my workshop (anticipatory gloat), and have a question to toss in the Creek. I will have a concrete floor, and had hoped to paint it with Rust-o-leum epoxy paint (similar to John Weber's), however, the ambient temp needs to be in the 60's, and the slab temp needs to be above 55 deg farenheit. I know that Atlanta is rather temperate, but the over 60 + temp is at least 4 weeks off.

Q: Other than looking cool, is there any need, in a woodshop, to paint the floor? I realize I can always do this later, but some of the machinery (Delta 17-968) isn't the easiest thing to wrestle around.

Comments?

Maurice
PS: I really want to stop paying $120 a month storage fee, and get my stuff in the new building.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Maurice,

My floor is not painted, but I wish it was! It would just make the shop look that much cleaner. However, if it is going to cost you another $120 to wait, you may want to try it out with just the concrete. More than likely if you are in your shop for very long periods of time, you are going to want mats down almost everywhere anyway, so you won't see the concrete.

Good luck and have fun moving in!

[John Weber]

Maurice,

I would give Rust-o-leum a call, they may cover thier butt and say it needs to be 60, but they might also tell you it would be ok. My guess is cure time will just be a little slower, but I would check with them first. My floor took two coats a day apart. The first one soaked in like crazy, but the second coat only needed about 1/2 the paint as the first. I did it in the summer, so temp was not a problem. I acid etched on a rainy night, the floor dried for a day and I painted the second day.

Other then looking a lot nicer, it's easier to sweep, and doesn't seem to get as dirty as old concrete. My floor was about 30/40 years old and had oil and other unknown stains. So doing the floor made a world of difference for the overall look of the shop. Took it from a garage to a wood shop.

Good Luck - John

[Maurice Ungaro]

John,
Good suggestion - however, I just spoke with Rust-oleum tech support, and asked about any "fudge factor" inthe temp. Their response was : " well, maybe a couple of degrees"....."if the concrete is not at 50 - 55 degrees, you risk having the paint pop off within the first month".

Looks like I'll be re-arranging a shop if I want a painted surface :mad: .

Maurice

[Steve Stube]

A floor coating (paint or other) can help keep the cement dusting to a minimum and thus avoid breathing it or having it get into your machines. For looks, I will leave that to others but say that a floor paint job that is not done properly (this includes such items as a vapor barrier below the concrete, proper cure time before coating etc.) will sometimes lift causing more of a maintainance job. Another important feature of coating a concrete floor is that it sweeps a little easier when the voids are filled and the surface is smoother. Another advantage of sealing is that oil etc. wipes up easily and doesn't soak in leaving a sticky spot that will soon darken. Besides looks floor coatings can help to reflect light and brighten your shop.

I don't find a concrete floor objectionable so I used this product in clear but it also comes pigmented, white and gray were two colors I saw on the shelf - maybe more choices are available, don't know. This product is an acrylic latex material and is almost oderless. I applied it with a rag and it dries very quickly,~15 minutes ( no car traffic for a day IIRC ). A second coat may be necessary but it goes a long way and is much less money than the epoxy paints for this use. I experimented and applied 4 coats to a 12' X 13' room in my shop and it looks like glass but I think a good seal was accomplished with the first coat. Temperature ??? I have the photo here but not the can to read - I will have to check on that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/ConcreteSealer.jpg

I went to the shop and checked the label, it reads "for best results use at temperature above 50 degrees F."

[Bob Powers]

Maurice,
I've had a lot of experience in concrete finishes. Most, except for the epoxies, don't work well. In my own shop, I used a method that I have recommended to others many times, and it works well, is inexpensive, and is very easy to maintain. It consists of two coats of latex masonry sealer and a coat or two of industrial liquid wax. All of the above are applied with a mop. I apply another coat of wax every year. After five years, I have no regrets.

[Silas Smith]

Just my 2 cents, but I really think that you should paint it before you put in your arsenal. I guess it comes down to personal preference, but ever since I painted my garage floor, I get a better feeling comming into my shop and when I show it off to others, it gets a better response. I even detect a bit more cooperation from my wife when I talk about the shop. She seemed to let go of the idea that cars will ever be parked in our garage again after the floor was painted.

[lou sansone]

dear maurice
have you ever considered not painting the floor at all and putting down a wood floor instead right over the concrete. I am not sure if it is possible with your setup, but IMHO wood floors are very nice in a wood shop. If you are interested in this option I would be glad to go into detail on how to do it.

lou

[Keith Christopher]

I second the wood floor. It is more comfortable on the feet and looks nice when there's no sawdust on the floor. hrmmm haven't had that look in a while.



Keith

[Ken Garlock]

The answer is Sherwin-Williams Tile Clad Epoxy.

I have it on the concrete floors of a 3 car, a 2 car garage, and my shop. It has been in place for 2 years, and look as good as new, except for a spot where some battery acid turned it a little brown(but it didn't peal or disolve.) I have dropped hammers and the like on the paint and it did not chip or scratch. The only damage it has where the concrete also chipped due to a heavy impact.

The painter who did our new house said that Tile Clad was the only concrete paint he would use.

Tile Clad comes in 2 one gallon cans that are mixed in equal parts. The two gallons will cost about $80, that is about the cost of good quality paint. The Sherwin-Williams store can mix it in one of about 30 colors, so you can probably find some color you like. Two coats are recommended a day apart.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Great tips on the paint everyone. As for the wood floors, that is a dream that cannot be realized at this point, or anywhere in the near future - we've already blown the budget on this project, and I'm afraid that I even had to lobby for the expense of the paint!

I guess it's going to come down to me taking a chance on the paint, with the tempuratures on thecold side of optimal. Seems that I'm going to risk having the paint flake off, but that's seems to be the only way to get a finish on the floor prior to moving equipment in.

On the bright side of things, I'm getting a real live shop to play...er..umm CREATE in!!!!

Maurice

[Bill Lewis]

I just want to "second" what a few others have already mentioned. I also used the Rust-O-Leum epoxy on my basement shop floor.

1. Definately consider two coats. It will definately cover in one coat, but it my case, it left a very matt finish. Maybe that's what it is suppose to look like, I just wish it were glossier than what I have. It would sweep up better.

2. Do it before moving in. I had every intention of painting my garage floor before moving in to the house. I didn't get it done, and now there's probably no chance of that happening anytime soon. It could be done in sections, but that would be a real pain to do. Do it right the first time.

[Norman Hitt]

Maurice, there's More than just Temperature to worry about when painting Concrete. I don't know if your "Floor" is Old or new construction, but if New, then be SURE you follow the instructions on the can about "how old" the concrete is, (no matter whether it is regular floor paint, or Epoxy), or it will definitely peel and flake off, which is more of a pain to repair, than moving machines around to prepare and paint. The combination of a Short Concrete ageing time PLUS a Low Temperature, is a difinite plan for paint failure from my experience.

Concrete continues to "Cure" for a Long time, and the Salts & Alkilis tend to come to the top, which is what makes the paint release and peel from the concrete. If your floor is "New Concrete", and you really want to do this only once, I would sugjest just cleaning it per the instructions on a good concrete sealer, then seal and wax it to to keep any stains or oil/grease from soaking into the concrete and making it easier to clean as well as eliminating the normal "Concrete Dusting", and then let it cure a year or so. After that, you can strip the sealer and wax per the instructions on whatever Epoxy paint you decide to use, and then acid etch the concrete per the instructions on the paint, and paint it. You will be Much happier with the long term results this way, than trying to patch the peeled places which Never come out very smooth.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and congratulations on the new shop.

[Barry Londrigan]

My first post! First of all I would like to say hello to all of you here...I have been reading your posts for months now and patiently (sort of) trying to piece my shop together. I certainly admire all of the profound knowledge here in this forum and will be forever humbled by it. I have sort of put the cart before the horse in that I have purchased some nice equipment...but the shop is not ready! (yes Tyler..I WILL put some pictures up...WHEN I feel worthy :) ) Now on to my question...(or cry for help if you will) Lou, I do plan on putting a wood floor in my garage. I found a nice article on doing such in a Taunton book but it doesn't get into the nitty gritty of it. I plan on a subpanel in the gargage...I planned on running conduit in the floor (2 x 4's on their face 16 on center foam insulation and plywood covering) ...my immediate question is concerning electrical boxes and junction boxes for powering the tools. Since the height of the 2 x 4's plus the tongue and groove plywood covering wil be approx. 2 1/2 inches, do you have any suggestions on what to use? Another thought is how to terminate this wood floor at the garage front since it will be 2 1/2 inches tall there...how do I transition it? I am in the process of drawing this up on Sketchup and hopefully I can get a sketch up here so you can see. Do you have any other suggestions? Other things I should be considering? Has anybody here put a 2 x 4 sleeper floor with plywood decking down for their shop? Thank you in advance for help and hopefully one day I will have some good knowledge (like you all here) to offer a "wet behind the ears" woodworker.

[Matt Meiser]

Definitely check on how long the concrete should cure. I talked to a couple contractors about painting mine and the first question they asked was how old the concrete was. The second thing they said is that I needed to wait until it was warm enough for the temperature of the slab to stay above 60--and not by heating.

[Steve Stube]

The second thing they said is that I needed to wait until it was warm enough for the temperature of the slab to stay above 60--and not by heating.

Sounds more like a scheduling conflict for your painter as I see no way the paint would know if the slab was heated artifically or not. Perhaps waiting for that 60 degree temp. represented giving the slab ~ 6 months for curing.

Barry, welcome to SMC posting.

[chris kelly]

I useds a system called U COAT IT. I love it. The dust sweeps up very easliy. Spills wipe up clean. I mope the floor once every two weeks and and looks like the day I put it down. Check out, ucoatit.com. I will try to load a pic.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Like Lou I think you should consider putting down a wood floor. A friend in CA used 1 1/8" thick sturdi floor 4x8 panels over sleepers. He runs some pretty heavy machinery on this stuff.
Take a look also at the Dri-core 2x2 panels. A guy on the Felder group just put it down in his shop. Said it worked very well. He talked to the dri-core people about weight and stability.
For me I used a two part epoxy from Sherman Williams. It has held up very well after nine years of use.
take care,
John

[lou sansone]

My first post! First of all I would like to say hello to all of you here...I have been reading your posts for months now and patiently (sort of) trying to piece my shop together. I certainly admire all of the profound knowledge here in this forum and will be forever humbled by it. I have sort of put the cart before the horse in that I have purchased some nice equipment...but the shop is not ready! (yes Tyler..I WILL put some pictures up...WHEN I feel worthy :) ) Now on to my question...(or cry for help if you will) Lou, I do plan on putting a wood floor in my garage. I found a nice article on doing such in a Taunton book but it doesn't get into the nitty gritty of it. I plan on a subpanel in the gargage...I planned on running conduit in the floor (2 x 4's on their face 16 on center foam insulation and plywood covering) ...my immediate question is concerning electrical boxes and junction boxes for powering the tools. Since the height of the 2 x 4's plus the tongue and groove plywood covering wil be approx. 2 1/2 inches, do you have any suggestions on what to use? Another thought is how to terminate this wood floor at the garage front since it will be 2 1/2 inches tall there...how do I transition it? I am in the process of drawing this up on Sketchup and hopefully I can get a sketch up here so you can see. Do you have any other suggestions? Other things I should be considering? Has anybody here put a 2 x 4 sleeper floor with plywood decking down for their shop? Thank you in advance for help and hopefully one day I will have some good knowledge (like you all here) to offer a "wet behind the ears" woodworker.

hi barry and others.

On the wood floor system on 2x4 sleepers I ran 1" emt along side the sleepers and had them terminate into 4" square boxes that were deep enought to come almost flush with the floor surface ( 2 1/4") . I then covered the boxes with a 4" blank plate with 1 3/4" hole drilled in it. You could then either hard wire the machine to the box or use the hole to attach weather proof metal box layed on its end using a chase nipple.

make sure you lay down the poly as they show in that article. I planned on the floor height for my shop so I did not have the transition issue at the door entry areas. Do what seems to make sense and keep in mind that you do not want any way for water to seep in under the floor at the door entry point.

lou

[Jim Becker]

Take a look also at the Dri-core 2x2 panels. A guy on the Felder group just put it down in his shop. Said it worked very well. He talked to the dri-core people about weight and stability.

One of the magazines recently featured Dri-Core (http://www.dricore.com/en/eindex.htm) as an alternative to the roll-out or piece together poly flooring systems. It not only gives you a nice surface, but it also gave the best warmth boost of the lot. It's sold ostensibly as a sub-floor product and needs to be ordered through Home Depot.

[Barry Londrigan]

Lou, I take it that the sleepers are laying on their face? I do plan on running the emt conduit beside the sleepers. Actually, I will have the sub-panel mounted on the side wall (house side) of an ordinary 24 x 24 garage wall. I plan on running the sleepers lengthway from the front to the back of the garage. I planned on a short "section" approximately 2ft long starting at the back wall and terminating the face of that and leaving about a 1ft section open then starting the sleepers again and all the way to the front. In the opening I planned on the conduit and then I can "turn down" any row of the sleepers towards where each particular machine will be. Make sense?

Jamie Buxton replied in an e-mail to me about using a rotary level and using a saber saw to cut the sleepers (on scribe marks as determined by the level) creating a horizontal plane to ensure the floor is level. I had read about using a powder nailer to secure the sleepers. Jamie also pointed out that Tap-con screws are good. I definitely want a wood floor in there...my floor is cracked in places and unlevel. I am still struggling with how to terminate the wood floor at the front of the garage.

Also, in using the rotary level....where do I start? At the high spot or low? How low (height from the floor) will the rotary level project a horizontal plane. I have never used one.

[Jim Becker]

Barry, if you have a sloped floor in that space, run your sleeper joists across the slope, rather than up and down it. That way you can just cut a bevel rip on them, rather than a taper down the length. Fred Voorhees did this for his bar project and it worked out super!

[lou sansone]

Lou, I take it that the sleepers are laying on their face? I do plan on running the emt conduit beside the sleepers. Actually, I will have the sub-panel mounted on the side wall (house side) of an ordinary 24 x 24 garage wall. I plan on running the sleepers lengthway from the front to the back of the garage. I planned on a short "section" approximately 2ft long starting at the back wall and terminating the face of that and leaving about a 1ft section open then starting the sleepers again and all the way to the front. In the opening I planned on the conduit and then I can "turn down" any row of the sleepers towards where each particular machine will be. Make sense?

Jamie Buxton replied in an e-mail to me about using a rotary level and using a saber saw to cut the sleepers (on scribe marks as determined by the level) creating a horizontal plane to ensure the floor is level. I had read about using a powder nailer to secure the sleepers. Jamie also pointed out that Tap-con screws are good. I definitely want a wood floor in there...my floor is cracked in places and unlevel. I am still struggling with how to terminate the wood floor at the front of the garage.

Also, in using the rotary level....where do I start? At the high spot or low? How low (height from the floor) will the rotary level project a horizontal plane. I have never used one.

I believe that with a rotary level you will need to find the high spot and then shim to it. If you start with the low spot you will have to "thin" your sleepers.

I agree with the electrical lay out. makes sense to me. I think that I used metal emt rather than the plastic conduit because it allowed me to use 1" emt next to the sleepers. Make sure you put heavy poly down first or you will be drawing moisture up through the concrete into your subfloor. What are you going to use as a final floor?

[Barry Londrigan]

Jim, I think that is a good idea on the positioning. I did have them drawn that way at first and then I changed my mind because of having to make provisions on each sleeper (front to back) to allow for the conduit to sit inside. Did Fred (or anybody else) have any construction pictures along the way?

Lou, the high spot makes sense to me...shimming to that makes sense. All these questions keep coming to me....as I shim...then at the front of the garage, it will be high on one end and low on the other (but I will have a level floor...what I am looking for) and the termination issue keeps perplexing me..to slope down...and also prevent water coming back in. As far as the final floor? I originally thought about tongue and groove plywood...and then heavy coat of....something...don't quite know yet. I like the idea of Dri-core but I am starting to get expensive there. I thought about the plywood and then maybe (and could be installed later...if most things are on mobile bases, which could also stretch the expense of a nice floor out) one of those "snap together" garage floors....

[lou sansone]

Jim, I think that is a good idea on the positioning. I did have them drawn that way at first and then I changed my mind because of having to make provisions on each sleeper (front to back) to allow for the conduit to sit inside. Did Fred (or anybody else) have any construction pictures along the way?

Lou, the high spot makes sense to me...shimming to that makes sense. All these questions keep coming to me....as I shim...then at the front of the garage, it will be high on one end and low on the other (but I will have a level floor...what I am looking for) and the termination issue keeps perplexing me..to slope down...and also prevent water coming back in. As far as the final floor? I originally thought about tongue and groove plywood...and then heavy coat of....something...don't quite know yet. I like the idea of Dri-core but I am starting to get expensive there. I thought about the plywood and then maybe (and could be installed later...if most things are on mobile bases, which could also stretch the expense of a nice floor out) one of those "snap together" garage floors....

Barry

I recently used a t/g sheet good called "avantex" it is really bulletproof. You will still need something on top of it for real wear, but it is a good subfloor. As I have said in previous posts, look to find a flooring mill that might have seconds. Hickory, pecan, oak or maple all make good flooring. BTW, check out ebay for flooring. I have seen several instances where "gym" floors were being almost given away if you were to take it up. The wood floor is going to be expensive compared to a painted floor, no question.

On the issue of how to terminate the floor, I assume that you have garage doors at the end. Are you going to still have them seal on the concrete apron as they do now? Do you ever get water into the garage due to the grade of the driveway? Think through that area and it might become apparent what to do.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I think that is a good idea on the positioning. I did have them drawn that way at first and then I changed my mind because of having to make provisions on each sleeper (front to back) to allow for the conduit to sit inside. Did Fred (or anybody else) have any construction pictures along the way?

Fred has the construction pictures in his BLOG... http://leatheruppers.blogspot.com/2005/03/bar-room-construction-project.html (scroll down slightly to see the start of the article...the page design doesn't float next to the left menu for some reason)

Notching for the conduit is a heck of a lot easier than cutting tapers!!

[Mike Monroe]

I've been thinking over this same thing for tha last month or so for my basement shop. I've come down to two possible approaches. SW Tile Clad Epoxy or Dri-core.

SW Tile Clad Epoxy Pro's; cheaper than Dri-core by over $500, smooth solid surface appearance, can be colored

Con's; prepping the floor properly will be messy and time consuming, since it's a basement I can't use Muratic or Phosphoric acid to etch, the epoxy really stinks during application and drying (or so I've heard).

Dri-core Pro's; relatively easy to install (from what I've read), insulates the room slightly from the floor (R-factor of 2)

Con's; cost, looks, not sure I'd like the look of the "random wafer" boards.

The $500 is the show stopper for me. Locally each 2x2 square of Dri-core cost just under $5.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, for your basement floor, check out the current issue of Fine Homebuilding (February/March 2005) on page 78 for an excellent alternative way to construct both the floor and your walls. Warm, dry, strong. Easy to install. I would definitely consider this if I were doing a basement!

[Bill White]

Maurice,
I used what I call "grocery store" tile. The thick stuff-12" x 12". Cleans easily, can be waxed (yeah-I do wax it), and is cheap. I think that it really helps the appearance in my shop.

[Mike Monroe]

Jim, I'll check it out. It's a little late to do anything about the walls though. They are up and slowly getting rocked, 2 sheets up last night, about 20 or so to go. I have plenty of oppurtunity to use new ideas in the future though, when the shop is done I get to finish off the rest of the basement.

[Gary Sutherland]

"...my immediate question is concerning electrical boxes and junction boxes for powering the tools."

I like this kind of arrangement for floor electrical. They are made for stages and designed to be flush when closed, and can have stuff rolled over them (recess the flange into the floor). The receptacle is in the box, and when in use the plug on your cord is also in the box with just the cord coming out the slot in the lid. You can buy or build them for any kind of receptacle(s) you want to put in them.

They will collect some sawdust over time (you can back the slots with flexible rubber if you want), but take only a second to vacuum out. Much better than boxes that sit on top of the floor, or flush boxes with the "screw in cover" that leaves the plug sticking up and won't open anyway after awhile.

It's actually very easy to build your own version of this, if you do simple metal working.

gary

[lou sansone]

"...my immediate question is concerning electrical boxes and junction boxes for powering the tools."

I like this kind of arrangement for floor electrical. They are made for stages and designed to be flush when closed, and can have stuff rolled over them (recess the flange into the floor). The receptacle is in the box, and when in use the plug on your cord is also in the box with just the cord coming out the slot in the lid. You can buy or build them for any kind of receptacle(s) you want to put in them.

They will collect some sawdust over time (you can back the slots with flexible rubber if you want), but take only a second to vacuum out. Much better than boxes that sit on top of the floor, or flush boxes with the "screw in cover" that leaves the plug sticking up and won't open anyway after awhile.

It's actually very easy to build your own version of this, if you do simple metal working.

gary

wow ... very nice. I have found that I simply hard wire every thing, but these are nice
lou

[Bill Fellmy]

I used the Rustoleum epoxy on my new garage floor a year and a half ago and it still looks new. Besides looking cool (gets lots of compliments), it is much easier to sweep than bare concrete and so far I have been able to wipe up all spills with little effort. BTW, I used the tan color with the paint chips but no skid proofing.

To cover 520 sq ft I used 2 kits @ $50 apiece and completed the project in 1 day. A local contractor wanted $1,300 to apply his special finish. I like the product so well that I am considering doing the back porch this summer.

[Barry Londrigan]

Jim, Lou and others - I did some thinking about the bevel rip option. I do think that that would be a very good way to do this (and then running the planks perpendicular to the slope) however I have another question. In doing this, I believe I would start at the low end of the garage and work my way to the higher ground, beveling as I go right? If I have a 2 1/4" difference from front to back, then wouldn't I have only a 1 1/4 inch sleeper in the back? This would leave no room for electrical.....maybe use 2 x 6s? I got the thought then that if I started at the high ground, that I would have to shim all the low spots as I worked my way towards them. Do you see any pitfalls in doing this? Thank you for the link to Fred's bar project...and thank you Fred for the long e-mail help that you provided. I was thinking about laying down 3/4 tongue and groove OSB on top once I figure out what to do. Do you think that is sufficient and should I add anything else on top of that? I have requested information from Advantech. Gary those are some really cool looking receptacles. Who is the manufacturer?

[Jim Becker]

1 1/4" will still accomodate your electrical as long as you put a steel guard plate where the wire goes through to insure fasteners don't 'nail' it. Using some cedar shims if you have significant low-spots is not a problem. Small ones you can ignore, IMHO, as the load gets spread.

Personally, I would not use OSB for this application unless you plan on covering it with another layer of something. It chips off too easy and isn't really designed as a "wear layer". Use a nice 3/4" T&G plywood or two layers of 1/2" materail for additional strength. (In that case you could use less expensive material for the bottom layer)

[Barry Londrigan]

Jim - I agree that it would probably chip off....also, it is probably not very easy to clean sawdust off of either. What do you think about coating it with something...like an epoxy sealer or something?