Woodcraft Providence (East Greenwich) closing

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Just got a card in the mail today that this Woodcraft is closing. Sad to see it go.

[Curt Harms]

That IS too bad. I used to spend weekends in that part of the world and Providence Woodcraft was a good place to kill some time. It seemed like they had helpful & knowledgeable staff. Between people not being willing to spend money on things they don't have to have and online sales, I'd imagine retail non-necessities is a tough business right now.

[ian maybury]

Can't speak for Woodcraft, or the US. Think though that the biggest problem these box store chains probably have now is that they expanded (built new branches) like crazy during the boom years. With the ability to sustain it leveraged by the then sky high (and rapidly increasing) bubble values of the resulting properties on their balance sheets.

They find themselves still paying the mortgages, but with issues due to reduced sales and reduced asset values. Unlike the corner hardware that's been in the family for generations they can't just hunker down into survival mode.

I'd not be surprised to hear that there's more than a few technically insolvent these days, but that the banks are holding off and hoping they can trade through it since if they go for liquidation they won't (being in negative equity) ever get their money back.

We're seeing quite a lot of predatory pricing from the box stores over here these days - a few loss leader type items up front, but really rubbing it in on smaller and related stuff. They probably figure that those buying in a slump really need it/have the money, and will pay....

ian

[Stephen Cherry]

If anybody needs a reason to BUY LOCAL, whenever possible; here it is. Nothing altruistic, purely selfish. I usually like to look at things before I buy, and sometimes I want them right away. The woodcraft stores within driving distance of where I live carry tremondous inventory. I consider this to be an asset to the local woodworking community. So my opinion is that if the local store has a product that I need sitting in the store waiting to be bought, and the price is not too far out of wack, they will get my business every time because I like having that product available.

[Dick Aubochon]

Just got a card in the mail today that this Woodcraft is closing. Sad to see it go.

I think that store is owned by the same people that own the store in Portsmouth, NH

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I would love to be able to buy local and would love to have a woodworking store in my area....so much so that I took a hard look at the franchise information at Woodcraft's link. the start-up fee of $50K seemed a bit steep, considering it only brings the name and rights to use branding. The real nut is that Woodcraft corporate takes 5% of Gross sales. THat is not net sales (after cost of goods, expenses, business tax, etc. GROSS SALES!!! By the time a franchise deals with real estate, inventory, staff training, insurance, utilities, security, etc... its hard to imagine there is any profit left at all. To make matters worse: Woodcraft.com is one of your biggest competitors! If there is a free shipping event, customers get the item without paying sales tax (unless there is a store in the state, which in NJ there is not) woodcraft.com is actively wooing you customers away from your store!

[michael case]

Woodcraft stores are franchises and evidently they vary wildly in customer service and general attitude. The stories I read in these posts about some Woodcrafts are just outrageous. We are lucky in the Boston area because the Woburn Woodcraft is a class act and its busy too. Woodcraft IS my local store and I'm glad I can say that. Sorry John that yours is going under.

[Jim Barstow]

the woodcraft in santa rosa, ca was run by really good people. They shut down a while ago and I sorely miss it. The other woodcraft in the bay area (dublin, ca) is a poor second best. We also have rockler but they are more into hardware that tools. they guy who owned/ran the santa rosa store said his landlord wanted to raise his rent to the point where he just couldn't make it work.

[Don Jarvie]

I was at the Woburn Woodcraft today and it was hopping. Its nice to have Woodcraft and Rockler in Cambridge MA near buy since both sell different items.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I go to the Woburn Woodcraft more, actually, because of where I work and some minor travel. The Prov woodcraft was closer to home, so I sometimes would head there on a Saturday - but it was far enough away (45+ minutes) that it was never a "quick trip". I'd love to have one closer, but it looks like Woburn is the best I can hope for. I thought the staff at both locations were good.I had a feeling this might have been coming. Some time ago I got a letter in the mail looking for franchisees in this area - seemed odd, but it also seemed they were lining up a replacement for the Prov franchise. Also, last year, I inquired about classes in the store - the Woburn store had many listed, but the Providence store stopped listing any. One of the gentlemen who works there said that classes were being done at some offsite location - sounded a little shady, and I wonder if the instructors either set it up to take that part of the business for their own, or if the store just did not want to have classes there.Dick - yes they also own the one in NH. A little too far for me but i do hope to visit it someday.

[Jim Matthews]

They're in competition with the Woodcraft catalog - which frequently offers free shipping.

For those who haven't gone over to the closing, most items are marked down 10%.
The sad part is the overpriced lumber - even with a steep discount, they are priced higher than Downes and Reader, where I can pick my boards.

"Brick and Mortar stores are in trouble" said the owner when I visited yesterday.
When your inventory prices are set by the home office, and they're in competition with you, it's untenable.

When people like me visit twice a year, the recipe isn't profitable.
Rockler is teaming up with stores that cater to the trades, and that seems to work.

Burns tools (http://www.burnstools.com/) in Fall River, MA is a viable alternative.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Thanks Jim. I have been to Burns - got my TS and some other items there. It just seems that most locations (Woodcraft Prov, Woodcraft Woburn, Rockler,Burns) are all 45-60 min from here. I agree about brick and mortar stores being in trouble. I heard that Amazon was debuting a service where someone could scan an item at a local store and then use it to navigate directly to the item on their site. Basically turns local stores into their storefront just without the sales.

[Will Blick]

> Basically turns local stores into their storefront just without the sales.

This says it all.... the no sales tax alone is an 8% price advantage.... then add in the tremendous overhead of running a store, I marvel any stores can survive, specially when your franchisee.com is your biggest competitor. People vote with their dollars, Amazon is going through the roof.... people want the lowest price. This reminds me of the Walmart debacle, everyone hates loosing USA jobs, yet Walmart became the 2nd largest corp in America by its citizens voting with their dollars. There is a few areas where retail will remain strong, such as clothing, service type products, etc. But anything in a box, that is easily shipped, which doesn't require customization, or testing it out.... the internet giants are killing the store owners... sad... capitalism at work.

[Glenn Kotnik]

I really enjoy browsing in woodworking stores, seeing items before I buy them and chatting with salespeople who share a love of wood. I am glad to pay a little more to buy from the local guy rather from a catalog or internet site. But here's the thing- stores must realize that they serve a limited following and very narrow market. They need to earn the customers loyalty. We have a rockler and a woodcraft store about 1/2 hour from me. The former has been off my list ever since one afternoon when a router bit broke around 4:15PM and I wanted to finish the job that day. I drove like crazy to the store and got there 10 min. before closing. The manager met me at the door and greeted me by saying "we're closing in 10 minutes you'll have to be out of here by then". When I picked out the router bit he snatched it out of my hand and announced he'd hold on to it until I was ready to check out. I guess I was born with a dishonest face. Now I don't even order out of their catalog. So much for building customer loyalty.

I've spent about $5000 at the other store over the past 10 years but have sworn them off too. Even after that amount of money spent no one even says Hi when I go into the store. Last year I bought a $3500 lathe. When I went to pick it up the sales guys were grousing about having to fire up the fork lift to load in in my pickup. The manager who I had ordered it from acted like it was a real chore to make such a complicated transaction. Neither the manager nor the sales guys even said thanks for making the purchase. They were glad to see me go. They still don't say Hi if I go in the store and are never pleasant to chat with. I'm sure they are relieved to know they will never be burdened with my purchases again. I have discovered that these managers are just employees of the big national outfit and they have no skin in the game at all, no need to make the place successful. On the other hand there is a family owned business on the other side of town, Northwest Lumber, which has a fantastic warehouse full of hardwood. Only family works there and they always greet me cheerfully as soon as I walk in the door, they offer to move lumber where I can see it better, help me sort through the stacks for just the right board, cheerfully chat about exotic wood. It's like the difference between the Bureau of Motor Vehicles and the neighborhood tavern, except with the BMV there is no where else you can go. With tools and wood there is.

[Jim Matthews]

Let's be clear about something - Woodcraft in Providence is going under because it's product line is too expensive.
When they're selling a commodity that is available anywhere for MORE - what justifies the markup? What's on offer is rarely better than the BORG stores, at boutique prices.

Given that most of their product line is sourced from Taiwan or The People's Republic of China, it's not as if they're supporting domestic industry - they're middlemen.
The clearest example is their lumber selection which is easily twice the price of domestic suppliers. This is the third such store I've seen go under, for the same reasons.

Emphasis on megabuck gizmos from Festool (with slim margins) pushed user tools and well built, affordable items off their shelves. Shopping with a Lee Valley catalog was an eye-opener.
High prices and marginal selection will sink this franchise - they lost my interest when they started making "Woodriver" plane shaped objects to undercut Lie-Nielsen.

There's margin, then there's inflated prices - too much money for the same stuff I can get anywhere.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Jim - I agree with much of what you said, but I do not agree that their wares are easily attainable at other local stores, such as the BORGs. I don't think I've ever seen the types of finishes or finishing supplies, machinery and accessories, and hardware pieces/parts (think T-tracks, knobs, good quality screws, sharpening items, etc) at a local BORG, Ace Hardware, Aubuchon, etc. Having all that in one place should be greatly convenient.

That said, I do think their prices were maybe out of whack on some items, but that's out of necessity. As someone mentioned WC Corporate takes 5% of *gross* sales. Also, WC tacks on a monthly marketing fee of 1% of gross sales and you are required to fund local advertisement (approved by WC Corporate) to the tune of 5% of gross sales.

Think about that, all of a store's costs - leases/rents, insurance, salaries, training, utilities, cleaning crew, trash disposal, and even the other fees paid to Woodcraft, ALL costs essentially incur an 11% increase (since they are all based on gross sales) just to cover the money needed to pay WC. I suppose that's all well and good if you have the sole presence in your territory, preserving your value and 'brand' - but with the internet, the very same goods are available via wc.com and amazon. In our business, we call that 'channel conflict' and it really PO's our distributors when we undercut them.

Factor in the sales tax advantage and it gets worse - a $100 item at a local store would cost me 106.25: 6.25 goes to the state, $5 goes to WC, $1 goes to WC Marketing, and I need to pay $5 local advertising - for a net of $89. Then I get to pay rent, electricity, heat, salaries, etc. The same $106.25 used online goes to WC corporate - no sales tax, no 5% fee, no 1% mkt fee, no local advertising fee. No wonder their website can offer a 10% discount so often.


I find myself wondering if WC is in some sort of violation of the terms of their franchise agreements by allowing Amazon to sell their products directly to people in a franchisee's "territory". Is Amazon considered a retail store? From a copy of the franchise agreement I found - "...we will not establish or operate or license others to establish or operate a Woodcraft retail store within the Territory granted to You". Directly from the Amazon site, there is a link to "Go to the Woodcraft Store" - which is not wc.com but rather a storefront operated by Amazon.

[Will Blick]

Agreed John.... the numbers are insanity for the WC retail store owner. All things factored to level the playing field, the WC retail store would prob. have a 25% higher price to consumer (after sales tax), and end up with profit that is smaller than what an internet Giant will make, selling at a -25% lower retail price (assuming now sales tax and no or low shipping). In todays recession, everyone is cognizant of these numbers. Makes me wonder how WC sells franchises?

First it was the BORGs pushing out the small Mom n Pops hardware stores, now its Internet Giants pushing out the big chain retail specialty stores. Capitalism does its thing, by consumers voting with dollars. Change always brings about winners and loosers, and its always painful being on the wrong end of this equation.

I think Rockler has the right concept to move forward in the retail future for ww. Place specialty stores, within existing lumber suppliers or hardware suppliers... now the ww specialty is an adjunct to an existing business, vs. a business that must produce a net profit on its own....instead, it contributes Gross Margin to the overall business...

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Interesting point on the co-location of a business, Will. I recall years ago that there was a brewing supply store (beer and wine, not coffee) nearby. GREAT place, fun to visit, but I remember discussing with my wife how impossible that must have been to run as a business, especially if you pay rent. (I can see it being easier if you owned the building and had other tentants).

The store closed after about a year, but then reinvented itself inside of another local store (beer/wine/liquore store). They took over an aisle, and worked within the other business.

As for the capitalism comment - I guess it is capitalism, sort of. People definitely vote with their dollars. But the lack of a fair playing field between local retailers and 'anonyous' internet retailers - specifically, the lack of enforcement of sales tax on online sales - is a significant issue on several fronts. Note that I say lack of enforcement - buyers still owe sales tax on items purchased online. It's just a matter of whether or not the online retailer is required to collect it. If it is not collected, the buyer is required to remit directly to the state. I for one have absolutely no idea how that would be done.

I reiterate that I think WC is doing its franchises no favor by allowing other businesses to effectively intrude on a franchises "territory".

[Will Blick]

John.... fully agreed, not a level playing field. Not only is the retailer hit with fees the .com parent is NOT, the sales tax issue looms. Yes, everyone is suppose to submit use tax to the state if they did not pay sales tax at the time of purchase, but until this is resolved, internet retailers continue to gain ground. I marvel how this loophole has not been closed yet as bricks n mortar chains have been lobbying for this for over 10 years....even simple bills, such as, internet sellers collect sales tax for the states they sell to, and submit to those states.....all have been shot down. Barnes n Knobles must charge sales tax on internet sales, as they have retail stores in each state... Amazon does not... go figure...welcome to America, where it takes 20 years to solve problems that should be tackled in 6 months :-)

[Matt Meiser]

If anything Rockler's approach has alienated me. I get Rockler ads all the time offering prices on items that the affiliate stores are unable to match and % off coupons that the affiliates can't take. I once sent them an email to point this out and got some BS line about how they couldn't work this out. I pointed out that couldn't was the wrong term--should have been won't. I still stop in the Rockler in St. Louis when I fly in there but my buying ability is severely limited by what the TSA will allow me to carry home. The Detroit-area Rockler is 70 miles each way for me in an area I rarely go.

[Will Blick]

This why the tiny adjunct ww dept of an existing store is the only hope for ww retail survivor-ship for near future IMO... while it will always loose the price conscious buyer who plans purchases in advance and has lowest cost as their highest priority...... it still serves the "I need it now" buyer....and when its the only game in town on the item you NEED, we pay a price premium to keep the few extra isles open.

[Dick Aubochon]

John,

A road trip to the Portsmouth store is well worth it. They are great guys, and the display of power tools is beyond what you see in other stores.

[Paul McGaha]

Sorry to hear of you guys losing your Woodcraft store. I find it very handy to have one nearby.

I should support mine more. I tend to buy small things from them. Drawer slides, hinges, knobs, some of the finishing materials.

I should make the larger purchases from them also but I tend to buy that kind of stuff on line (toolsplus).

PHM

[Kevin W Johnson]

Let's be clear about something - Woodcraft in Providence is going under because it's product line is too expensive.
When they're selling a commodity that is available anywhere for MORE - what justifies the markup? What's on offer is rarely better than the BORG stores, at boutique prices.

Given that most of their product line is sourced from Taiwan or The People's Republic of China, it's not as if they're supporting domestic industry - they're middlemen.
The clearest example is their lumber selection which is easily twice the price of domestic suppliers. This is the third such store I've seen go under, for the same reasons.

Emphasis on megabuck gizmos from Festool (with slim margins) pushed user tools and well built, affordable items off their shelves. Shopping with a Lee Valley catalog was an eye-opener.
High prices and marginal selection will sink this franchise - they lost my interest when they started making "Woodriver" plane shaped objects to undercut Lie-Nielsen.

There's margin, then there's inflated prices - too much money for the same stuff I can get anywhere.

I think you have an over simplified view of the situation most small B&M stores are faced with. Most specialty stores don't have the luxury of high volumes of mechandise sales. The less you move, the more you have to make on the sales you have. The less you move, the more you pay for inventory. Simply lowering prices doesn't mean increased sales when you have a small customer base to begin with. Furthermore, a B&M can never match the prices of e-tailers and remain in business, it's simply not possible, the cost structures and potential customer volumes are just too different. Add to that the fact that too many people will throw the local store under the bus to save $5.

Simply put, we need to have a level playing field, especially where sales taxes are concerned. However, that won't be enough to offset the high cost of a retail store. Too many small businesses fail because the cost of doing business is simply too high, and taxes are responsible for a large portion of that cost.

[Ellen Lewis]

For those of you in the Massachusetts - Rhode Island area, there is another alternative. Beaver Woodworking in Brockton has many items I found in Woodcraft, although not all of them, is locally owned, is not part of a "chain", has the WORST website I have ever seen and has friendly and knowledgeable people working there. On my Downes & Reader trips I will often stop in to see what's new there.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Dick - I'll have to take the time to try that one. It's pretty far for me so it wouldn't be a regular tri for sure.....the WC in Woburn is much closer.

Ellen - I am not too far from Beaver and have been there a few times. Even though it's only 2 towns over it still takes me 30 minutes to get there. It doesnt have quite the selection and I thought much of their inventory seemed a bit old, but I do pick up "consumables" there (finishing supplies, etc). I would like it if they were open Sundays as our Saturdays are usually booked. And yes their website is awful, and the people are very nice.

[Jim Matthews]

For those of you in the Massachusetts - Rhode Island area, there is another alternative. Beaver Woodworking in Brockton has many items I found in Woodcraft, although not all of them, is locally owned, is not part of a "chain", has the WORST website I have ever seen and has friendly and knowledgeable people working there. On my Downes & Reader trips I will often stop in to see what's new there.

Thank you! They're just down the road from Downes and Reader - I feel a road trip coming on.

Jim
South of Brockton, MA

[Jim Matthews]

I think you have an over simplified view of the situation most small B&M stores are faced with. Add to that the fact that too many people will throw the local store under the bus to save $5. Simply put, we need to have a level playing field, especially where sales taxes are concerned. However, that won't be enough to offset the high cost of a retail store. Too many small businesses fail because the cost of doing business is simply too high, and taxes are responsible for a large portion of that cost.

Woodcraft corporate sets the inventory and prices for the franchisee. The largest items (like the previously mentioned lathe) have virtually no margin and could be drop-shipped directly to the customer.
In that case, the store floor is crowded with gear that produces little in the way of profit for the store owner. Profit is made in the small, disposable items. These items are available to anyone with a catolog and telephone, let alone internet service. I can purchase the same finishing supplies (by special order) from my local Benjamin Moore, and the supply comes directly from the maker - it's fresh.

It's not a matter of customers throwing an earnest retailer under the bus, the franchise does that with supply agreements.
Each layer of handling adds cost.

When we can buy directly from the manufacturer - for less money - why do we need a store?

Lastly, the Woodcraft catalog orders (or Rockler for that matter) collect sales taxes from me, as they have a storefront in my State.
The fact that they will ship for free (saving me 1 hour 45 minutes drive time and gas), or offer discounts unavailable at the B&M makes the model unsustainable.

This is the third Woodcraft store I've seen go under, for the same reasons.

Jim
Westport, MA

[Don Jarvie]

It seems like Woodcraft corporate is killing Woodcraft the franchise which doesn't make a ton of sense. I like to go to the store but will see if they have an item 1st online to see whether I need to hit Rockler or WC. If I'm buying something online I'm looking for the cheapest price and will do a little leg work.

It would be interesting to see if a store closes does the online numbers go up from that area. Its too bad. I love going into both stores an poke around.

[James White]

Damn! That is the nicest run Woodcraft I have ever been in. The manager there really had his hart into running a quality store. I am very sad to hear this. Maybe they will open a new store nearby. I imagine the rent in the strip mall they are in would be on the high side. It is a huge retail area.

James

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Damn! That is the nicest run Woodcraft I have ever been in. The manager there really had his hart into running a quality store. I am very sad to hear this. Maybe they will open a new store nearby. I imagine the rent in the strip mall they are in would be on the high side. It is a huge retail area.

James

I stopped there yesterday - it was already pretty well picked over but still a decent selection (especially finishes). I overheard a few people taking and it didn't sound like another WC was opening, but maybe we'll get an independent WW'ing store nearby.

I think another poster indicated their rent was going up 30% - that's gotta be a tough pill for any retail store to absorb.