Why a Leg Vise?

[Gary Curtis]

It's clear that they have advantages over a Record Vise or Shoulder Vise. But what is different from, say, a Moxon vise or other Twin Screw Types?

It would help if I knew exactly what kind of work I'd be doing, but that level of experience will come with time. I simply don't know, other than understanding the explanations from Chris Schwarz about working on board Ends, Surfaces, Edges. The front vise being for Ends.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

One of the big reasons I chose a leg vise for my bench is its simplicity. It was easy to build with a $30 vise screw from Lee Valley and a big hunk of Maple I got for cheap, works great, and if anything goes wrong with it (unlikely because of its incredible simplicity), it's easy to fix. It has a huge amount of clamping power, with a Maple parallel guide and a cheap screwdriver for the stop pin, I can grip just about anything. I've even snapped a screwdriver used as a parallel guide pin from clamping something so hard.

Seems to me (without having ever used one) the Moxon or twin screw vise is primarily for raising the work a bit and allowing easier joint cutting. I think that vise type would have some difficulty in clamping a board for, say, edge jointing (as I frequently use my leg vise for).

[harry strasil]

Each vise has its own advantage, I do a lot of weird stuff so I have em all except for a tail vise. But you gots to start with something and a leg vise is easiest to add or remove if need be and no need to do a lot of chopping or recessing under the bench edge.

[Jim Matthews]

I would take Harry's recommendations VERY seriously.

His body of work is daunting to us hacks trying to learn the stuff we should have in shop class, had we paid attention.
I'm not convinced that even the leg vise is necessary. I use a crochet (left side, as I'm right handed) with Veritas surface clamps in place of the leg vise.
Not as potent, nor so fast to adjust but shop time was only for the fitting of a plywood "leg" and a row of 3/4" holes.

Works a champ, that.215619Elapsed time to build crochet, fixed sliding leg and moxxon? 2 hours 30 minutes.

[george wilson]

If you put a peg rack at the bottom of the leg vise,you can get it to close very close to parallel,and get a good,hard grip too.

[Ron Brese]

One reason among many, You can't believe how easy this was and how stable it was. The board was of the type one hardly sees anymore. This one came from a mill back in 1961.

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[Michael Peet]

I use mine whenever I plane edges. I also use it for dovetailing, but it is a little low.

Mike

[Floyd Mah]

Consider using a slanted leg vise on your workbench, as Chris Schwarz does on one of his workbenches. It combines the simplicity of the usual leg vise with the ability to hold a piece of wood as tall as your workbench vertically without racking.

[Peter Pedisich]

One reason among many, You can't believe how easy this was and how stable it was. The board was of the type one hardly sees anymore. This one came from a mill back in 1961.

215628

Wow, that's a nice piece of plywood, how does it plane?:D

[harry strasil]

Thanks for the Compliment Jim, and Gary Check out my Bench Album

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=551

and look at the 11 different vises I have on my New Basement Shop Bench. It may give you some ideas on what type of vise you want. As you will see when you visit the Album, I think outside the box sometimes.

Hold your cursor on each picture and it will give a description of the vises, or click on the pictures and the description will show up under the picture.

[Gary Curtis]

Thanks to all. Great photos, Harry. Some of these points are new to me. I just picked up a library copy of Scott Landis: Workbench book. I hadn't factored in how easy it is to make a Leg Vise.

[Derek Cohen]

It's clear that they have advantages over a Record Vise or Shoulder Vise. But what is different from, say, a Moxon vise or other Twin Screw Types?

It would help if I knew exactly what kind of work I'd be doing, but that level of experience will come with time. I simply don't know, other than understanding the explanations from Chris Schwarz about working on board Ends, Surfaces, Edges. The front vise being for Ends.

Essentially, the leg vise is for edge jointing. It is used in association with a sliding deadman to support a long board. The advantages of a leg vise over, say, a twin screw vise are that it has greater depth for wider boards, and that it will not rack.

A twin screw vise has an advantage in being able to clamp boards for dovetailing. However, since the re-introduction of a Moxon-type dovetail vise, the pairing of a bench with a leg vise and a Moxon wins (in my book) over the twin screw version.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Dorn]

I'm with Derek on this one. I put the leg vise on a couple of years ago and actually didn't care for it a great deal at first. The reason was that regardless of how fine you set the parallel guide, it is difficult (at least for me) to get a parallel hold on a board for dovetailing. That resulted in either a tight grip at the top, but could tip with just a little torque, or a slight gap at the top which results in chatter when dovetailing. Like Derek said - it's stregth was edge jointing, but I use a bench slave as opposed to a deadman.

I thought about taking it off and fitting a shoulder vise, but after the buzz on the Moxon vise and subsequently building one, it removed the concerns and the leg vise is now dedicated to what it does best.

[Jack Curtis]

How do you use holdfasts with a deadman or an apron? Seems like they'd not be thick enough.

Jack

[Jim Matthews]

How do you use holdfasts with a deadman or an apron? Seems like they'd not be thick enough. Jack

I don't use a holdfast on the deadman, but rather the Veritas surface clamp. From what I have seen with Bob's Nicholson bench videos at the Logan Cabinet Shoppe, he gets solid grip with an apron no more than 1 inch thick. That said, most of my use for the deadman is purely as a prop for one end. Planing forces the long boards against a crochet and it steers that force toward the bench.

The limiting factor for strength is the top channel holding the deadman. Too much slop, and the holdfasts will pry it out of the slot.
Too little play, and it's a PITA to adjust. Rather than use a vee guide on the bottom, I attached an inline skate wheel.

As the wheel rides inboard of the highest point on the rail, pressure from the holdfast (in my case, Veritas surface clamp) pulls it tight.

Jim
Westport, MA

[Chris Griggs]

From what I have seen with Bob's Nicholson bench videos at the Logan Cabinet Shoppe, he gets solid grip with an apron no more than 1 inch thick.

I believe Bob backed the holes in his apron with blocks cut from 2 by stock to increase the effective thickness of the apron (or maybe that was just the top, can't recall). IIRC, he also laminated a second board to the back of his apron to make a shoulder for the bench top to sit on, but htis also would have increase the apron thickness.

BTW, I have a set of China made holdfasts that got from Harbor Freight a year of so ago for like a buck or two a piece. They work just okay in the thicker benchtop but for some reason they hold much tighter in the thinner (~1.5" thick) apron.

[Bryan Schwerer]

Like Derek said, I use the leg vise mostly for edge jointing occasionally to hold stuff maybe for a short rip, 12-18" or so. Something that would be awkward on a saw bench but too big on a bench hook. I use a bench on a bench for joinery cuts. What I really need now is a wagon vise to clamp boards I am face jointing. It's rough because I am trying to retro fit the bench I have. I am either looking at http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=66819&cat=1,41659 or making a wagon vise from an LV tail vise screw from an aborted attempt at a front vise. The other one became my screw for the leg vise.

[Jerome Hanby]

Could you not add a swiveling face to the leg vise so that it would always square up with the backer?

[Frank Drew]

It's clear that they have advantages over a Record Vise or Shoulder Vise.

How so? I liked the shoulder vise on my Frid/Klausz style bench, never had any complaints with it. I used a board jack in the tail vise when planing or working on the edge of longer stuff.

Whatever style of vise, lining the vise faces with leather (I prefer rough out) measurably improves the performance with very little expense or effort.

[Mike Holbrook]

Bryan, thanks for the link to that LV vise, somehow I missed that one. It looks like it would do what a tail vise would but have less tendency to bow a board. I was thinking about the Veritas Wonder Dogs/Pups or surface vise which have less adjustment & occupy more bench space. I may have to add an Inset Vise to my plans.

[Ron Brese]

Wow, that's a nice piece of plywood, how does it plane?:D

This board is old growth and straight grained, it was a most pleasurable experience the way shavings were coming off these boards.

Ron

[Laird Sourdif]

I built a bench with the leg vice, but I also built the Moxon bench top vise (Derek C has an example on his website and the Schwarz has it online). My thinking was that I could use the leg vice to joint the sides of my boards during milling and then put the moxon vise on the bench (held in place by the leg vice and a clamp) and cut dovetails, and do joinery, etc. I think that this setup is also more ergonomic. I don't have to stoop to cut dovetails.

I have a small shop so I could not put the leg vice on one side and the twin screw on the other.

[Peter Pedisich]

This board is old growth and straight grained, it was a most pleasurable experience the way shavings were coming off these boards.

Ron

Ron, it is an amazing piece of wood! I've never had the pleasure of working with such a wide board.

[Chris Griggs]

Ron, it is an amazing piece of wood! I've never had the pleasure of working with such a wide board.

Plus I bet Ron was using some pretty nice planes to plane it with :).

Seriously though, its cool piece of wood. Be curious to know how it would be used?

And to the OP. I agree with what others have said about combining the leg vise with the moxon. The leg vise's bread and butter is really edge planing, and while I find mine works well for just about anything I use a face vise for, a moxon would be better for cutting joinery. It's not the the leg vise doesn't hold the pieces well, it's just that as other have said, you need to clamp boards fairly low in the vise and bend over to saw dovetails - it works well enough that I haven't taken the time to make a moxon yet, but once again a higher twin screw/moxon would be still better.

[Bryan Schwerer]

You're welcome,

Now hopefully my post will show up under yours, I can never guess where it will show up. If you get it, please do a review, about the only thing I worry about is if it is sturdy enough and how well it works on thinner boards. Every so often I have to do something with a 1/4" board.

[john brenton]

I was going to go with a leg vise, and still may. The installation seems easy enough where a retrofit wouldn't be too bad.

I went with a twin screw and I'm very happy with it. I'm not knocking the moxon, but I really didn't want an extra bench fixture. I have the shooting board, bench hooks, and a fixture for holding my machinists vise...I just didn't want another one or have the space for it.

The twin screw vise really does a great job, and all I need (want) is a quick action vise for an end vise.

Check out the video by Chris Shwarz. http://blip.tv/popular-woodworking-videos/holtzapffel-workbench-design-1303486

I'm definitely not a Shwarziite, although I do appreciate his work. Point being is that I saw his version of this bench and it struck me as absolutely perfect. Mine doesn't really look like his, and mine is 8' long and features a tool tray...but the work holding is basically the same. It's a very solid design.

[Zahid Naqvi]

enough has been said already, but I must relieve my itching fingers. Reasons I chose a leg vise

1. It was cheap. A $30 screw and some leftover Ash and I had a vise
2. It is very flexible and can do a lot of holding for various uses
3. Easy to install, no need for precise and exact cutouts under the bench etc. And if I find out I don't like it in the future I will take it off in 5 mins and there will be no impact on the bench, except a 1/2" dia hole on one leg.
4. Depth is more than almost all other options except the twin screw, or moxon, style

[Zach England]

I am contemplating for my bench a leg vise on the face, a wagon vise on one end and a twin-screw on the other end. Thoughts?

[Trevor Walsh]

The leg vise also has a huge capacity advantage over the ankle vises they replaced. With the leg vises actual furniture makers could use them, until that point ankle vises only really had the attention of dollhouse furniture makers and the like.

[Jim Matthews]

It's rough because I am trying to retro fit the bench I have. I am either looking at http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=66819&cat=1,41659 or making a wagon vise from an LV tail vise screw from an aborted attempt at a front vise. The other one became my screw for the leg vise.

I have one of these installed. It was VERY difficult to excavate that much material from my bench top, as the laminations are held together with some monster screws. If you built your own top, this may not be such a concern. Having put one of these in, I'm not convinced of it's utility. I feel that much of the same work holding can be accomplished with Veritas wonder pups or Bench blades. Those only require a 3/4" hole to install.

[Jim Matthews]

Is the crochet dovetailed in permanently or can it be removed?

If you can take it off, that's genuinely clever.
I like the retention of Granpa's coachmaker's vise - there's some romance to legacy tools staying in the family.

[Gary Curtis]

Frank, I've only used a shoulder vise on benches in other workshops. The L shaped always got in the way of approaching the front edge. Maybe it's just a psychological thing?

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim thanks for the heads up on the LV inset vise. Maybe a Wonder Dog is a better option. I just " wonder" if the toggle used to tighten these devises is slow compared to the Surface Vise which I understand has a quick adjustment design?

I have read that the angled leg vice is an even better leg vise design? I have seen these but have not seen plans for one. Maybe building one is straight forward though? I am a little foggy on the design of the bottom end of the leg devise. I do see that Benchcrafted offers a Glide Leg Vise but at $340 it seems very expensive vs a simple leg screw & arm. Benchcrafted also offers their ROLLER BRACKET HARDWARE, about $40, which seems a more reasonable price if it significantly improves the function of the lower end of the vise? I would like to hear thoughts regarding the best overall design shape and lower end mechanics of these vises. I am giving serious consideration to the Benchcrafted hardware for a Moxon vise. At $149 this hardware is pricey but I think those wheels would dramatically improve the ease of use of a Moxon vise.

[Chris Griggs]

Jim thanks for the heads up on the LV inset vise. I have read that the angled leg vice is an even better leg vise design? I have seen these but have not seen plans for one. Maybe building one is straight forward though? I am a little foggy on the design of the bottom end of the leg devise. I do see that Benchcrafted offers a Glide Leg Vise but at $340 it seems very expensive vs a simple leg screw & arm. Benchcrafted also offers their ROLLER BRACKET HARDWARE, about $40, which seems a more reasonable price if it significantly improves the function of the lower end of the vise? I would like to hear thoughts regarding the best overall design shape and lower end mechanics of these vises.

The angled leg vise essentially gives you wider clamping capacity to the right of the screw, and reduces racking. Mine is angled and I quite like it. Really wasn't hard to build - its just a matter of aligning a couple mortises, tenons and holes. Building it really isn't any different then building a non angled one - I remember being intimidated about building it at first, but once i got started it was really quite simple. Although, the legs on my bench are also angled, so my vise was just mounted in line with the leg. I guess if you are adding one to a bench with vertical legs, you might need to make some adjustments.

Also, mine just has a regular parallel guide at the bottom, with some wax on it - there are no special guides or wheel and I've never had an issue with it. The mortise that the guide travels in is in line with the vise chop, so it is angled in relationship to the bench top.

I can post some pics later showing how its put together when I get home tonight if you want.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great info. Chris. I would love to see your design. As I am just in the process of trying to locate wood for my bench nothing is cast in stone design wise. A crochet like Jim has on his bench is another good option for working edges but I think it would be convenient to have at least one vise on the side of my bench and I think the leg vise is definitely the best option. I am planing on a Moxon removable (bench on bench) vise for end grain, dovetaills, higher work. I am thinking about a Wonder Dog or Surface Vise and maybe the Veritas Bench Anchor system to use for working board surfaces. I will also have a couple Veritas Surface Clamps or a Surface Clamp and Hold Down. I think the Veritas Surface Clamp in particular has some advantages in some situations vs my Gramercy Holdfasts.

With all the Veritas & Benchcrafted bench hardware options, choosing the hardware for a bench design becomes a if not the major factor in design.

[jamie shard]

+1 on the advantages of the angled vise, unlimited capacity to the right and depth to the floor.

[Chris Griggs]

Mike, here is the link to my bench thread. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?161979-My-New-English-Workbench-The-Official-Tour&highlight=)

I literally grabbed the pic below right from that thread. You can see how the mortise for the parallel guide (circled in red) is in line with chop and because my legs are slanted also in line with the leg. The vise/leg and the corresponding mortises are all angled at 15 degrees to the top. When I made the vise I literally built it as a square block so nothing was angled. In building it I first mounted the parallel guide in the chop and then put the vise in place with the guide in the mortise in the leg (which I had chopped before assembling the bench). With these aligned I then used the hole for the screw that I had already drilled in the chop to mark where the hole in the leg/apron would be. I wasn't until everything was mounted and traveling smoothly that I cut the angle so that the top of chop would be in line with the top of the bench. I had left the chop long at the top so all I had to do was put the vise in place and then draw a line on it where it crossed the bench top (blue line shows shape of original block when first mounted). The only measuring of angles that I had to do occurred when I built the legs at an angle. For the vise everything was referenced from the leg and the top, basically I used one piece to mark another throughout the process - once again, it surprised me how simple it ended up being. For me the hardest part of making the slanted legs was getting accurate shoulders (which needed to be angled) on the tenons for the front and back stretchers and on the legs where the aprons sit.
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[Mike Holbrook]

Very nice Chris! I guess the panel on the front of your bench is in lieu of a sliding dead man? What advantages do you think your bench front panel has over a dead man? Your bench has some similarities to another bench I have been admiring on the Benchcrafted site, their Split Top Roubo. Where did you get the screw & handle for your leg vise? I read that Lee Valley sells them, but for some reason I have not been able to find them on their site. The Benchcrafted Glide Leg vise or even just the hardware seem excessive to me.

If I understood your original thread concerning the construction of the top, both you and Schwarz are of the opinion that one could face glue two pairs of 2x12 boards rather than orienting the lumber with edges up? Since there is a gap between the two sections in the top I imagine the wide boards would be free to expand & contract? It would save a bunch of gluing to just face glue 2x12 boards. I plan to put my bench in the center of the shop floor so I am not so sure I want the legs at an angle. Trying to figure out if I could do an angled leg vise on a bench with straight legs?

[Chris Griggs]

Very nice Chris! I guess the panel on the front of your bench is in lieu of a sliding dead man? What advantages do you think your bench front panel has over a dead man? Your bench has some similarities to another bench I have been admiring on the Benchcrafted site, their Split Top Roubo. Where did you get the screw & handle for your leg vise? I read that Lee Valley sells them, but for some reason I have not been able to find them on their site. The Benchcrafted Glide Leg vise or even just the hardware seem excessive to me.

If I understood your original thread concerning the construction of the top, both you and Schwarz are of the opinion that one could face glue two pairs of 2x12 boards rather than orienting the lumber with edges up? Since there is a gap between the two sections in the top I imagine the wide boards would be free to expand & contract? It would save a bunch of gluing to just face glue 2x12 boards. I plan to put my bench in the center of the shop floor so I am not so sure I want the legs at an angle. Trying to figure out if I could do an angled leg vise on a bench with straight legs?

Yes it replaces a sliding deadman. I can't directly compare it to a sliding deadman because I've never had one, but I do like it as it gives me a lot of options for clamping and using pegs and holdfasts. It does take some potential storage space away from the underside of your bench and makes it harder to use f-clamps to clamp things down to the top, but this has created no problem for me. I guess it's big advantage is ease of construction. The apron is just a 2x12.

Here is the link to the tail-vise screw that lee valley sells (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41664&cat=1,41659), which is what mine is.

I can't personally say for sure that face laminating two 2-by boards would work for the top, but yes, I did email Schwarz with this question when I was building mine, and yes, he is of the opinion that it is fine. He said he even went back and glued boards (not just blocks) between cross beams to the underside of the top to make his thicker - said it created zero problems for him and was much better then the single board top. I don't see why it wouldn't work as long as 1. you started with dry lumber and 2. made sure you had the faces flat enough to get a good glue bond.

I've seen pictures of old benches that have slanted leg vises but vertical legs like this one here (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/sindelar_bench1_IMG_5901.jpg). Seems simple enough to build and look quit effective - actually if I rebuilt my bench I would strongly consider doing something similar.

And oh yeah, love the split top. Having the stops run down the center of the bench is endlessly useful.

[Mike Holbrook]

I can certainly see how an apron would be easier to make than a sliding dead man. I was thinking about a tool tray under one or both sides of the bench top for: a Moxon , Veritas bench accessories and to keep the tools in use on, so, I am leaning toward the dead man. Clamping access all around the top sounds attractive to me too.

So the "leg screw" is made to be a tail vise screw that's why I did not find it! It looks like all I have to do to slant the leg vise on a straight leg bench is add a support board matching the jaw shape to the flush bench frame, easy enough. I believe the slanted leg vise leaves the corner of the bench available for clamping too, which seems like another plus.

Gluing two 2x12's might solve the issue I was most concerned with in gluing up the top, time. I have been concerned about glue setting before I got all the pieces of the top coated and in position. Guess I could rip and glue them a time or two too.

I am sold on the split top and the options it provides. I don't think a tail vise or any other vise would provide any functions that the: slanted leg vise, Moxon vise, split top and the right bench accessories couldn't do as well or better.

[Brian Myers]

How thick is the front piece of a leg vise usually ?

[Chris Griggs]

I can certainly see how an apron would be easier to make than a sliding dead man. I was thinking about a tool tray under one or both sides of the bench top for: a Moxon , Veritas bench accessories and to keep the tools in use on, so, I am leaning toward the dead man. Clamping access all around the top sounds attractive to me too.

So the "leg screw" is made to be a tail vise screw that's why I did not find it! It looks like all I have to do to slant the leg vise on a straight leg bench is add a support board matching the jaw shape to the flush bench frame, easy enough. I believe the slanted leg vise leaves the corner of the bench available for clamping too, which seems like another plus.

Gluing two 2x12's might solve the issue I was most concerned with in gluing up the top, time. I have been concerned about glue setting before I got all the pieces of the top coated and in position. Guess I could rip and glue them a time or two too.

I am sold on the split top and the options it provides. I don't think a tail vise or any other vise would provide any functions that the: slanted leg vise, Moxon vise, split top and the right bench accessories couldn't do as well or better.

All sounds like a good plan to me. I think your idea for you slanted leg vise is good - just make sure where ever the top of the chop contacts the bench top is well solid. Leg vises have a lot of power and I've had problems with mine pushing the top back from the apron. I guess if you go apron less though that's not an issue. Go ahead and give the sliding deadman a go. I would if I built another bench, the big apron is nice, but I can see a couple pluses to having a deadman instead and really no minuses.

Personally I like having some kind of end vise - i tend to use the stops more like one would use a bench hook even though their intent is really more for stock prep. Having the stops is also really nice for thin stock. But for heavy material removal on 3/4"+ stock its the end vise for me. To each his own though, lot of folks feel that there is no need for one.


How thick is the front piece of a leg vise usually ?

Mine is 8/4, I've never wished that it was any thicker than that.

[Brian Myers]

Thanks Chris. Do you think it could glued up from 2 thinner boards ?

[Jim Matthews]

Plus I bet Ron was using some pretty nice planes to plane it with :).

Nah, Ron Brese just uses stuff he makes in his basement.
Of course, Ron's planes are just planes, the way Thor's Mjolnir was just a hammer.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Now you've got me thinking about doing the angled leg vise on my bench - which has just been a thick top with an end vise sitting on sawhorses for over a month now . . . but I'm trying to figure out how to mortise angled legs in the top, mortise the stretchers, and still put the damn thing together. . . I guess an angled leg means you go with lap joints for the long stretchers, or does the apron just negate the need for long stretchers?

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Chris. Do you think it could glued up from 2 thinner boards ?

Umm, honestly no idea. It could work but I don't want to speculate. You could try it and if it comes apart later on, replacing it an 8/4 or thicker chop probably wouldn't be to hard.


Now you've got me thinking about doing the angled leg vise on my bench - which has just been a thick top with an end vise sitting on sawhorses for over a month now . . . but I'm trying to figure out how to mortise angled legs in the top, mortise the stretchers, and still put the damn thing together. . . I guess an angled leg means you go with lap joints for the long stretchers, or does the apron just negate the need for long stretchers?

Do it.... You know you want too! Yes, the apron sits on a lap joint in the leg, and serves as the long stretcher at the top. At least in the Nicholson design it does. Why not do something like in the pic I linked to previously? Make the leg that the vise will be attached to really wide. I would think you could mortise it straight into the top and by keeping it wide just cut the long edge grain at the angle you want the vise to be at. I cant say with any certainty that this would work, but I bet if you toyed with the design for a while you could come up with a solid plan.

[Zach Dillinger]

How thick is the front piece of a leg vise usually ?

I used a chunk of 12/4 poplar, but thats only because I had a scrap piece that was perfectly sized already (just needed to be cut, slightly, to length). I don't think I'll ever be able to split it, like I did with the 8/4 pine one I had before this one.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm playing around with drawing things up - I don't know how wide I want to make the leg - I spent a fair bit of time making square dogholes by hand, and I already covered the bottom of one do to poor planning around my end vise install . . . I was hoping to go with a wooden screw, but a metal screw and it's narrower dimension gets me a little bit more room to work . . .

I suppose the angles not enough to make a huge difference, but I wonder how you planned your screw location? Seems like I see numbers between 8 and 10 inches thrown around for the distance between the screw and top of the bench - do you measure the distance from the screw to the end of the installed chop, or from the top of the bench?

[Chris Griggs]

I suppose the angles not enough to make a huge difference, but I wonder how you planned your screw location? Seems like I see numbers between 8 and 10 inches thrown around for the distance between the screw and top of the bench - do you measure the distance from the screw to the end of the installed chop, or from the top of the bench?

I don't recall exactly how I determined the distances. Basically, I wanted the screw low enough that I could clamp a wide board failry deap down for edge jointing, but not so low that I had to stoop down like crazy to adjust the vise. I also remeber reading that you don't want the screw to far from or too close to the parallel guide since a lege vise uses the vertical racking created to get its power. Although, I wonder if that distance is one of those things that matters more in theory than in reality. I think unless you went to extremes of closeness or farness between the guide, the screw, and the top you're probably okay with wahtever.

I would just focus on what will be most practical in bench construction and use. How deep a board you want to be able to put in, plus not bending over too much, plus what makes sense for ease of installation.

[Mike Holbrook]

Chris your comments about your leg vise's chop pushing your top around have me thinking....

just make sure where ever the top of the chop contacts the bench top is well solid. Leg vises have a lot of power and I've had problems with mine pushing the top back from the apron.

Since my plan is to do a split top with larger boards, maybe face glued, I think this issue becomes extra important. The plans I have in Hand Tool Essentials (not a split top) attach the bench legs to the top with mortises in the top (half way through a 4" thick top) and tenons in the legs. The Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo plans run a apron/stretcher widthwise between the two legs on the ends but do not reinforce the longer sides with any kind of apron. I can't tell what if any other reinforcement might be present under the two top sections without buying the plans. I am wondering if the two width long apron/stretchers are the only support the two pieces of the Benchcrafted top have for support, other than the legs. I think I have seen split tops (Chris's ?) that incorporated cross members within a lengthwise apron. I guess cross members could be an obstruction to dog holes though, unless the spacing was well thought out.

[Chris Griggs]

If I did it again I would get a wider board for the front apron and try to glue the apron to the front of the bench top, rather than have the benchtop sit on top of the apron - this would completely eliminate the separation issue.

Yes, the Nicholson design has members that run across the short dimension of the bench between the two aprons, and yes they can obstruct the dog whole, but if you plane there location and the dog holes location in advance you can avoid this, or at least keep it to a minimum.

I needed to be able to knock down my bench since my fiancee and I are still somewhat transient. I have cleats glues to the sides of my short top stretcher, and lag screws up through them to hold the top on, but there is ieough play in them that the top still shifts back under the pressure of the vise.Once we get more permanently settled I will probably glue the top pieces down to the tops of the aprons to make the top more secure.

[jamie shard]

For consideration... the only thing I don't like about the Nicholson is having to reach under the apron to push up dogs. If I made it again, I would probably put a 4 or six inch gap separating the top from the apron... except maybe right under the vise.

[Garrett Ellis]

I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning.... I still don't get the advantages of a slanted leg vise over a vertical one. It was said that you can clamp wide boards without the vise screw interfering, but can't you do that with a vertical leg vise too?? As long as you keep the board to the side of the screw, you still have the same distance from the benchtop to the floor. I can't imagine the little extra surface area of clamping you get from the slant is worth the complexity of the angled leg/vise/joinery...

Are there other advantages that I'm missing?

[Chris Griggs]

I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning.... I still don't get the advantages of a slanted leg vise over a vertical one. It was said that you can clamp wide boards without the vise screw interfering, but can't you do that with a vertical leg vise too?? As long as you keep the board to the side of the screw, you still have the same distance from the benchtop to the floor. I can't imagine the little extra surface area of clamping you get from the slant is worth the complexity of the angled leg/vise/joinery...

Are there other advantages that I'm missing?

I don't think your missing anything. The only leg vise I've ever had is slanted, so I can't compare, but I'm not necessarily convinced that the slant is THAT advantageous. I think it probably has the small advantages that have been discussed but if it were vastly superior you'd see a lot more slanted leg vises and a lot less straight ones. Given the number of straight leg vises that are out there I have no doubt that they are perfectly adequate.

[Kees Heiden]

When you clamp a long board in the legvise to the right of the screw, then you get wracking and can't clamp it very tight. With the slanted legvise that problem would be eliminated I guess.

[Mike Holbrook]

I hate to mention Schwarz again but I have been studying his DVD on Making & improving benches. He suggests that many benches fail at one or more of the three main functions of a bench: surface work, edge work or end grain work. Surface work is done on the top of the bench. I plan to do end grain work in a Moxon Vise. That leaves edge work. I would like to be able to work the edges of 8 foot boards on the side of my bench, this is where the leg vise may come into play in my plans. Although the truth is I am not yet convinced that I need a leg vise or any vise permanently attached to my bench. A crochet on one front edge of a bench with coplanar legs and a sliding dead man or large apron is capable of holding long boards for edge work quite well. I am not even convinced that a leg vise will make set up much faster. Bob Rozaieski did a very interesting podcast on building his split Nicholson bench (@...logancabinetshoppe...com...). Bob did not put any permanent vise on his bench. He has a removable twin screw vise, something like a single sided Moxon. I think the side of his bench serves as one vise jaw, like a leg vise. Bob does not like leg vises for some of the same reasons Garrett mentions.

I don't think there is a perfect vise, they all have pluses and minuses.The leg vise is my favorite permanent vise even with its limitations.

[harry strasil]

Wracking of vise jaws is not a problem, its just another obstacle to overcome with a bit of ingenuity.

The Emmert style vise I was given by a neighbor went through a rather tough life on a farm as it was probably the only vise on that farm, it was well used and abused some so it has a loose problem due to all the wear and abuse. My solution was to cut some scrap 1/8 hardboard pieces and drill a hole in one end of each for a retaining bolt with a locknut.

[harry strasil]

Is the crochet dovetailed in permanently or can it be removed?

If you can take it off, that's genuinely clever.
I like the retention of Granpa's coachmaker's vise - there's some romance to legacy tools staying in the family.

The Crotchet just drops in a large dovetail Jim, I have the same thing on my Demo shop bench now too.

When I first started my blacksmith appreticeship under my Father and Uncle, I used my Grandfathers Coachmakers Vise a lot as I was replacing spokes and felloes in high wheeled wagon wheels along with working down timber for reaches, tongues and axles for farm wagons.

[Mike Holbrook]

It took me a while to figure out Harry's solution to vise wracking, bloody brilliant! An adjustable dummy insert to balance the thickness of any board placed in one side of the vise is a great idea. It just so happens I have a fair number of thin pieces of purple heart left over from trimming the sides of plane bodies that I think I now have a use for. I like the idea of a removable crotchet too. I think I may "borrow" that one for my bench design. A bench with a leg vise & slidding dead man and removable crotchet should be able to hold just about any board for edge work.

[jamie shard]

With the slanted legvise that problem would be eliminated I guess.

Right, for most furniture sized boards (up to ~8") there's no concern about wracking and you have the entire depth to the floor. I have a little mark on my vice where all the forces balance out, so if I center the board on that mark there is no wracking.

Harry's solution works great for vices where the board has to be above or one side of the screw(s).



p.s. Since we're complimenting Harry... I stumbed across the pictures of your traveling bench --- I think I saw it before, but this time I suddenly saw the genius in the staggered dogs w/wedges system.