Want to start making molding planes. A little guidance please.

[Tony Shea]

I just recently went to a LN hand tool event here in Warren Maine. I talked with a fellow for a while about his molding planes that he has made, and boy did I get hooked. Before I left I bought myself the Larry Williams DVD on making side escapement planes. What a great DVD by the way.

I need to get tooled up for starters, some floats, small mortise chisels, and most importantly and hardest to find is small brace powered gimlets. I assume 1/8" gimlet is the proper size. Is there anywhere I could possibly look for some gimlets? Is there other boring tools in this size that is just as good at getting the wedge mortise started?

My other question is in reguards to the size of plane I should start with. Most my furniture is small scale and would get the most use out of a pair of smaller hollow and rounds, probably in the 1/4" or 3/8" range. Is there any reason starting this small isn't a good idea? Should I just follow Larry and do a #10 (5/8") hollow and round?


Floats? For the Side and Small Cheek float, which orientation should I buy? I;m assuming the push float would be better, but is there any reason I should be looking at the pull instead?

And any other resource for making molding planes would also be a huge help, although Larry did an awesome job laying it all out. This is all new to me so anything Ive said so far that is unneccessary please tell me. And anything I should watch out for.

Lastly, where in the h*** can I get some good beech? Seems like it's harder to find than I expected. What other, more available woods can i use?

[David Weaver]

There is a guy who calls himself mr. lumber or something, he's in ohio. He sells beech that is quartersawn, and is the only person I know of who does. If you look him up on ebay by searching for "quartersawn beech" you can find him on there, or you can see if you can track him down on woodnet. How far are you from woodsfield ohio (don't worry, he ships and he sells to people who have made planes other than me, so he'll know what you're doing with it)?

Make sure that when you get it, if you do, that you let it sit for a month or two, it'll still move a little bit when it acclimates to your shop.

Push for the cheek float (or you'll rip fibers out at the mortise at the top of the plane and it will look ugly) and pull for the side float - there's enough flex (since it's longer) that you can avoid having the teeth touching the side of the mortise at the top of the plane when you pull it to clean up stuff on the side (and for the same reason, you don't want to run a push float all the way through the plane at the bottom - you'll bust fibers out).

You can make your own edge float, or buy LN's. I had made one, and for nothing other than laziness didn't file the teeth as large, and it's nice to have that file to start cuts in the planes as the LN 3/16th edge float is pretty aggressive and a bit grabby as you're doing your initial float work.

You can get other QS wood, but i don't like cherry as much (though, I guess for us, it'll never matter, we'll never use H&Rs enough to wear them out) because it's not as durable as beech, it costs more to get it in good QS 8/4, and it's light weight. Maple is hard to work, also more expensive in QS, and more chippy.

I don't anticipate you'll run into a bunch of QS fruitwood easier than beech either, so beech it is.

Gimlets are hard to find - I have a source near me at home, but I may be able to get one or two a year as I hit his shop, and I have enough to carry me through. You may find that if you are accurate with your eyes and hands, that it is easier just to drill with a brad point bit and a cordless drill with variable speed. I am indifferent about either way, and for sure if you're using beat up gimlets because that's all you can find, the VS brad point drill will be better.

All of that just my opinion, worth the price charged for it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm hoping to start making some molding planes in the future, so I await others responses to this thread as well. My plan was to start with a rabbet plane, in the theory that it leaves at least one or two fewer tasks to screw up, but it's probably a false economy since I don't think making the sole profile is going to be the difficult part.

As far as the wood question, I believe Bickford uses cherry.

[David Weaver]

Matt has both options.

I could only get cherry from hearne at first, thus my comments above. The planes were still nice users, it's not a matter of whether or not cherry planes are functional, just a matter of whether or not you'll use cherry if you can get beech.

Any high-wear areas on a plane will be boxed, anyway, and few, if any, H&Rs will ever see much traffic on their bottoms if the roughing is done by other planes. \

I would start with the #10s as larry suggests, btw, because they're big enough to give you an idea of what's going on (the lean, the details below the grip, the chamfering, etc), but not so big that you're unlikely to use them for furniture work.

However, I could also see some merit to starting with small planes in order to use them to cut the cove on the grip of the progressively larger planes, but if that's an issue, that cove can always wait until you have a plane that will do a tidy job of it.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

Matt Bickford, the gentleman you probably talked to at the show, is very knowledgeable and creates beautiful planes. He has quite a bit of information on his website about how to use the planes, and I believe Lost Art Press is working on a book with him, largely focused on using the planes.

http://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.com/

When I met Matt last spring, he was using Cherry because he was able to obtain nice quartersawn pieces at a fair price, and was searching for a source for Beech. I don't know how that's turned out, but David Weaver has indicated that he now makes Beech.

I think if I were going to try making some planes, I would try one or two in a cheaper, more easily obtained (but still well suited for the application) wood such as Cherry before trying out some Beech. Maybe while the Beech is acclimating.

[Andrae Covington]

Is there anywhere I could possibly look for some gimlets?

I haven't made any planes, like others it's on my longer-term to-do list. But I do have some old brace gimlets that I bought on ebay a couple years ago. They don't show up very often, unfortunately, but if you have time, you might see what you need. Also check with online antique tool dealers... others here can give you the names of their favorites.

As I recall, either in the Larry Williams DVD video itself or a PDF file on the disc he describes how to make your own gimlet bit for a brace. Having very little metalworking experience, it looked even more difficult to me than making the planes, ha.

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[David Weaver]

Yeah, the part about making gimlets made me figure out what it took to find them.

I have some marginal gimlets that had chipped edges that I was able to knock the chips off with a trizact belt on a 1x42 belt grinder and with that belt get inside the edge a little. That brought a couple back to life.

By the way, on the price of the beech, if you get 8/4 beech from the guy in ohio, it will be cheaper than quartersawn cherry or quartersawn hard maple. I don't recall the price exactly, but IIRC, it was about $7 a board foot. I could be off a dollar or so either way, but at the time he was offering to provide 80-90% growth ring quarter (true quarter, whereas what you'll find often called quarter isn't like that), and the stuff that was 60-80% was cheaper a little.

Maple cost me $9 from west penn hardwoods, plus a per bd foot fee for requesting a width range (there is no reason to get a 7" wide 8/4 board to make planes, you'll joint it and then not be able to get two planes out of it).

cherry was somewhere in the $11 range at hearne, and it took a lot of hunting to find a QS board that didn't just look like rift sawn and find it in a decent width.

If you get the ohio beech and make your own irons, you're looking at between $10 and $15 for a plane and at the quality you can make them, that's a bargain. Anyone with any kind of bench or freestanding belt sander can taper their irons enough to make them easy to get out of the planes - it takes very little, but without taper, they can be a real bear to get out of the wedge fit is proper - I would avoid irons without taper.

I personally would use good wood for the first couple of planes - the grain orientation will have a lot to do with where and how the plane breaks out, and it'll be the little things that drive you nuts making them. The first pair or two won't be cosmetically where you want them to be.

[Joe Fabbri]

I only made one plane, a 3/4 rebate plane. I did it quickly out of a piece of red oak I had (and used a ground down spade bit). I rushed it because I needed it for something right away, and I messed up the angle when drilling and had to open my mouth up more than I should have. It did the job, but I'd like to try it out again and take my time. It's good to know about the beech supplier, but I'm curious, what about something like red or white oak? Is it too prone to splitting? I have access to a bunch of scrap white oak pieces from a boat project nearby, and most of the scraps are rift-quarter sawn. Should I grab some for making a few planes, you think?

[David Weaver]

The planes will work, but beech is a much smoother and less splintery wood to work with. It's very agreeable but still hard.

I'd use QSWO given the choice of those two you mentioned, because the plane will look a little more tasteful when all is said and done.

[Joe Fabbri]

Yeah, the red oak is a little ugly looking in a plane, especially when it starts to get dirty.

Aside from appearances, though, would you say White Oak has any particular advantage to Red Oak? Is it denser, or any less porous?

[Trevor Walsh]

Hey Tony,

I've got Larry's DVD as well, currently (meaning between the four other projects I'm working on) I'm building up what I'd call a short half set. I'm building a pair of 2s, 4s, and 8s, I have a nice pair of 6s and 12s already, and I have to mill more stock for the 10s. I made my first 10 out of cherry, which tooled fine, I was fooling around working out of Whelan's Making Traditional Wooden Planes, and didn't quite like the details so I never made an iron for it. Though I should, test with it. Anyways...

I don't really think it's a good idea to work much smaller than 8s or larger than 10s, those two will give you enough room to work. As you may known, the 4s and smaller have the grip reversed and a 1/16th lean to the iron, and everything is thinner. If you start bigger you can probably get away with using an auger (#8s use a 1/4" wedge) the smaller planes need the gimlets. Larry has said that they almost gave up making planes because they couldn't keep the small drills from deflecting in the 3/16-under sizes. Then her tried a gimlet and what do you know? He's also found tell-tale gimlet marks inside the morti of old planes.

Whelan's other, out of print, hard to find (I bought a copy for $50, but the F****** post office lost it in the mail, got a refund but that's not the point, another American treasure lost to postal monster. Now I have to shell out about twice as much). Where was I? Whelan's The Wooden Plane has some awesome history, an amazing index of complex moulding profiles and appendi on cutting geometry etc. If you have the cash...it's a good book.

The above info on floats based on tearout is good stuff, I plan to make a full set of floats, but I'm just going to make those to start, I made the first with only an edge float, and I'm excited to have a face and cheek float now.

I'm reluctant to divulge my source, least the supply dry up, but Joshua Clark has some beech and sweet birch that he's seasoning into blanks. QS and sized at about a heavy 5/4. Some larger stock as well.

Here are some pictures of the progress so far. I've also got some pictures around here of a 3/8" wide miniature, slip boxed rabbet plane, the mortise was drilled with a twist bit, and it's off, even only on the 1/2" or so depth of travel, I don't know if I'll finish the little guy, the iron will have to be pretty weird and it will stop working after some use, of well, 'nother go I guess.

[Andrae Covington]

I have a copy of The Wooden Plane. It doesn't have the planemaking how-to information of Making Traditional Wooden Planes but it describes a wide range of wooden planes with text and line drawings. Both Whelan books are interesting.

Another book that's out of print, hard to find, and usually expensive: Wooden Planes in 19th Century America by Kenneth D. Roberts. There's actually two books, Volume II seems a little more difficult to come by and focuses on planemaking at Chapin's Union Factory. It includes photos (b&w) of the specialized tools used by planemaker Solon Rust.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the red oak is a little ugly looking in a plane, especially when it starts to get dirty.

Aside from appearances, though, would you say White Oak has any particular advantage to Red Oak? Is it denser, or any less porous?

No clue. Any wood that doesn't move will be fine. Beech is one of the worst woods I've ever seen for movement, even some in pieces that are quartersawn, so if the surface finish of oak (red or white) is tolerable in a plane, it should be fine. Might be hard on floats if it's dry, but I don't know. They can always be sharpened, anyway.

[David Weaver]

Btw...if anyone wants the phone number of the guy I referred to above for beech, let me know. I don't want to put his number up here, but I'd be glad to pass it along.

There's so much beech in ohio that you'll not run him out buying it. Rather it might become more available because if enough people ask for it, batches may go into the kiln more regularly.

He calls me from time to time asking if I want more, because he comes this way with a truck fairly often, but it takes a while to go through much stock making planes.

If I were anyone buying a new batch of beech for planes, I'd probably buy 20 board feet of it. You never know when guys like Mike will stop putting it in the kiln, and it does crack and check a bit more than most woods, even after it's kiln dried, so expect you might pitch 10% of it or so by the time you get to it.

20 bd. feet of it in 8/4 and boards in the neighborhood of 5 inches wide would make for an entire half set and all of the rabbet, bead and profile planes you're likely to want to make.

[john brenton]

I'm glad I read this thread, if anything, to hear that those brace gimlets are hard to find. I know I have a few oldies, and have never appreciated them. I guess I'll have to hold on to them.

[David Weaver]

I'm glad I read this thread, if anything, to hear that those brace gimlets are hard to find. I know I have a few oldies, and have never appreciated them. I guess I'll have to hold on to them.

They're rare enough (to me, at least) that they're the type of thing you find when you're not looking for them, but when you want to find some good ones, they're all of the sudden hard to find. They are pretty easy to find totally beat, though, with the edges rounded over and huge dings in them. At that level, they are hard to bring back to usable condition with a belt grinder.

I've noticed that the place I raid suddenly has fewer now that I get them once a year or once every six months. Nobody else seems to want them, but if I take the decent ones each time, then the stock doesn't replenish that fast.

[Tony Shea]

Thanks for the great info. Has helped tremendously. I will need to give the video another scan just to get caught up a little better on the details.

PM sent to David. Thanks a ton.

[Chris Gilly]

I am in the process of making a half set using Larry's DVD. I'm using QS cherry because that is what I can find here in Connecticut. I have already made sizes 2, 4, 6 and 8. I just bought a 16/4 cherry board that I ripped into QS billets of various thicknesses including a 30'' x 4'' X 4'' blank for a jointer. That should keep me busy for awhile. I make the irons out of O-1 tool steel that I taper on a belt sander. I made the floats out of tool steel following the Norse Woodsmith's instructions.
I used the hand held "gimlets" that Garrett Wade sells to start the mortises. The key is to back them out regularly to clear out the gullet. I think the slow progress of hand screwing helps keep the bit on track.
So far, cosmetically the planes are not what I would like them to be but they work very well. I am actually surprised by how well they work. I think the key is making sure they are really sharp. I am looking forward to graduating from H&R's to more complex profiles.

[Trevor Walsh]

Chris can you post some pictures? I'm particularly interested in seeing the #4 and smaller, I have one very badly messed up antique #2 round (why someone decided to cut 1 1/2" off the toe, with makers mark is a mystery) that I've been musing over in order to plan my work on the smaller sizes, seeing more would help.

[Ryan Baker]

I would also like to see some good pictures of the #4 and smaller planes. Some of the descriptions here sound very different from my own mental picture of how I would make them -- having not yet actually tried to lay out one that size.

[David Keller NC]

I just bought a 16/4 cherry board that I ripped into QS billets of various thicknesses including a 30'' x 4'' X 4'' blank for a jointer. That should keep me busy for awhile.

A comment, guys - don't get stuck on Q.S. Beech, or Q.S. anything. The key here is exactly what Chris mentioned above - a 16/4 flat-sawn board will easily yield plenty of Q.S. blanks for molding planes, and finding a 16/4 flat-sawn board is a heck of a lot easier than finding true Q.S. in any species. And - remember that the reason the vast majority of antique 19th century planes out there are made out of beech is because it was very inexpensive, reasonably hard, and relatively easy to work.

But I have planes in my collection that are made of all manner of woods, and have handled ones in other's collections that are made of an even greater variety. Here are just a few common species in antiques, outside of the usual beech: Maple, Boxwood, Cherry, Apple, Miscellaneous Fruitwood, Birch (yellow, not white), Walnut, Chestnut and Mahogany.

While it's true that it's more work to cut and fit Maple than Beech, remember that you're not interested in the economics of 19th century plane making, so a little more time to make a set of H&Rs that will easily last your lifetime and several more in addition isn't a big deal. And getting 16/4 kiln-dried maple 9at least in the East) is a whole lot easier than getting Q.S. Beech.

[Jim Foster]

Would QS White Oak work OK for a set of hollows and rounds

[David Weaver]

Anything as hard as cherry will work fine, it's a matter of what's easy to get.

I've given out the number of the guy I know to several people, we'll find out how much beech he has on hand.

Dave is right, anything pretty much will do, the orientation is more important than the wood (if you expect to use the plane 5 years from now without dealing with twist, etc).

However, if someone is making and shipping good quality 8/4 QS beech for really pretty cheap, it's no harder to get than any other wood, and I would stick to it as the best choice in terms of economics, workability. It's true that maple can be worked just fine. If you plan on making 25 planes (a half set, some rabbet planes, ...) and you're going to do a lot of the work by hand, the beech is much nicer to work and the overall difference in effort is significant.

If you're going to use mostly power tools and cut the grips, etc, with a TS, maybe it doesn't make that much of a difference.

If the beech does, however, become hard to get, then I agree with dave, go with anything else. I think most will find that fruitwoods are getting scarce, especially trying to get them QS - I've had a little bit of luck, but it's always been just a few board feet at a time, unless I want to take a whole lot of other flatsawn stuff with the QS, and at a high price (I don't want either of those aspects).

Yellow birch might be an option if you can find it. There are plenty of very old planes made of it, but I haven't seen it nearly as often as 16/4 maple, which itself isn't hard to get, but at the same time, it's been more than the 8/4 QS beech costs when I've found it (hearne, west penn, etc) and often the minimum isn't something I want to swallow.

If there is a local lumber yard that sells hardwood 4x4 table leg blanks or turning blanks, you can often pick some that will be suitable, but most of the leg blanks I've seen have been 3x3 inches, which is too small.

[Chris Griggs]

If there is a local lumber yard that sells hardwood 4x4 table leg blanks or turning blanks, you can often pick some that will be suitable, but most of the leg blanks I've seen have been 3x3 inches, which is too small.

Too small for molding planes or too small for plane making in general. I've thought about picking up some of Bell Forests 3x3 maple or ash baseball bat blanks if I try my hand at making some wooden bench planes, and have been wondering if that's big enough? Do you need the 16/4 stuff specifically for molding planes so that you can yield a wide enough piece of QS stock to make the planes tall enough? Just trying to clarify.

[David Weaver]

Yes, if it's flatsawn, you rip 16/4 down its thickness to make 4" wide QS boards. 12/4 would be too short.

I think 3x3 is too small for plane making in general. It's probably the finished width of a wooden 2 inch iron plane, and if it moves, then you have a lot of difficulty getting a straight body out of it.

Might be able to make some small smoothers out of it. You could get one or two blanks and let us know how it works out, worst thing you'd end up with is high quality stock for jigs.

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, if it's flatsawn, you rip 16/4 down its thickness to make 4" wide QS boards. 12/4 would be too short.

I think 3x3 is too small for plane making in general. It's probably the finished width of a wooden 2 inch iron plane, and if it moves, then you have a lot of difficulty getting a straight body out of it.

Might be able to make some small smoothers out of it. You could get one or two blanks and let us know how it works out, worst thing you'd end up with is high quality stock for jigs.

Suppose I won't know for sure until I try, could probably make a narrowish bladed scrub or fore plane from it too. I can't find anything above 8/4 locally in any species - it's annoying.

[Chris Gilly]

Chris can you post some pictures? I'm particularly interested in seeing the #4 and smaller, I have one very badly messed up antique #2 round (why someone decided to cut 1 1/2" off the toe, with makers mark is a mystery) that I've been musing over in order to plan my work on the smaller sizes, seeing more would help.

I will try this weekend.