Finishing cuts/quality/expectations? Thompson/D-way tools?

[alex grams]

I am working on bowls and trying to get that perfectly smooth finish. Currently I have an assortment of Penn State Industries gouges and a couple of Sorby bowl gouges. I watch some Raffan videos and he gets a 'finish quality' cut from his gouges with minimal sanding. I have to sand the starting out at 100grit and moving up to get an acceptable surface.

Would an investment in a Thompson/D-way bowl gouge be an option worth the money? Or do I just need better practice? Or are my expectations of the quality of finish off the tool wrong? I ordered a few more Penn State Industries bowl gouges so I can play with the grind angles this week when they get delivered to see if that has any effect.

Also, my sharpening consists of a 150 grit norton wheel on a 1600rpm grinder, and I usually just use a slip to remove the burr.

Any comments on any aspect of my work/setup to help improve my work would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Richard Allen]

High performance tools like Glaser, D-way or Thompson will have very little impact on the quality of your cut. What will make a difference is grind off the heel of the bevel and use a freshly sharpened gouge for the last few passes. Even then starting at 100 grit is not bad.

If you take very light cuts for your finial passes and lightly rub the bevel you could leave a finish that would start to be improved with 220 grit. The time and effort required to get a 150 grit surface off the tool is, for me, more work than sanding with 100 grit and 150 grit.

Why you might want one of the high performance tools? These tools make you feel better when your turning. I mean how could you feel bad if you have some of the best turning tools in your hands.

[Scott Hackler]

Alex,

Although it will cost Doug or Dave a sale....right now.... I would say that tool presentation and practice are your best bet for now. I love my Thompson tools, but honestly I use a 3/8" (1/2" in the USA) Sorby most of the time. There is just something familiar about it and Sorby (although not as hard as V10 or V15 or the steel D-Way uses) the grind is what I love and learned on, so it's my "go to". A couple things to remember.... don't start and stop the tool in the intended travel path, you can use the gouge turned sideways as a small scraper to smooth up the outside profile and don't forget that the "masters" make it look easy because they have been turning for years and years. I generally start with 180 grit, but sometimes the wood (because of tearout or moron tuner) needs a little convining with some pretty aggressive paper!

Every bowl or turning you do, will improve your skills and make things easier.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Alex - just my opinion - but you are trying to emulate one of the true masters in turning and, while not impossible, it will take years of practice! Richard gave you some good advice about removing the heel of the gouge. That helps prevent bruising and makes sure that only the bevel is lightly riding the wood.

When I started out turning, almost all of my sanding started at 100 or 120 grit. I wasn't that good... I just didn't have any 80 or 60 grit! Now that I have been turning for a few years, I generally start sanding around 220 grit and every once in a while I am pleased to start at 320. So, I have to believe it is more a matter of practice than anything else.

[Kathy Marshall]

Here's my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.Any brand/quality of tool can give you a nice finish cut as long as it is sharp enough and has a good bevel angle for the job it's being used for, but even a tool that is razor sharp won't give a finish cut if the tool control isn't there or the best type of cut isn't being used.What quality tools will give you is longevity and value in the long run. The better steel will give you a better edge which will last longer. The cheaper tools will take many more trips to the grinder and will need to be replaced more often. The cheaper tools are good for practicing your grinding techniques and finding the bevel angle that fits your style.I'll add a little plug for Thompson tools since I just love mine and use them almost exclusively, an Doug and Donna are just great to deal with.Again, just my opinion, but a 120 grit wheel works wonders and I would leave the burr.

[John Keeton]

First of all, there is no sin in starting your sanding at whatever it takes to get a good finish. That will improve over time, as Steve and Scott have said. And, sometimes, it is simply quicker with sandpaper!! On forms, I start at 150 regardless of how good a finish cut I get - it just is easier for me to do that and work my up through the grits. I have become used to that. However, on detail work - collars, etc., I take more pains in the cuts, and generally can sand at 220 or 320 to start.

Regarding tools, I will say this - There are some gouges that have a highly polished flute, and a polished flute seems to make a difference in the cut. It is just like leveling and polishing the back of a chisel. An edge is the mating of two beveled surfaces, and the quality of that edge depends on the polish of both beveled surfaces. I one side is rough, then the edge will be somewhat serrated. If both sides are rough, the problem is magnified.

Since we use a grinder for one bevel, it makes sense that if the other bevel is polished, the resulting edge will be more keen. That said, that keen edge will not last long on a spinning piece of wood! But, for a final cut, it will make a difference IMO.

[David DeCristoforo]

My "go to" gouge is still my old Glaser 1/2" "Stocksdale" gouge. I'm just in the habit of grabbing that one even though I now have plenty of shiny new Glaser gouges! I'm getting used to going for them now but old habits are hard to break!


When I was making a lot of furniture, I spent quite a bit of time learning to hand plane surfaces so that sanding them was pretty much unnecessary. And what I learned was that the key was in 1) getting the edge sharp enough and 2) keeping the edge sharp enough. When you are after that kind of surface, you have to spend almost as much time sharpening as you do cutting. An edge like that will not last long no matter how good the steel. I was using top quality hand forged Japanese planes and that steel is about as good as it gets. But I still had to be touching up the edge a lot.


Proper tool presentation and technique are important and those things come with practice. I am still practicing and probably will be for a long time to come. Those guys who get the kind of cuts you are after have spent many hours at the lathe. It becomes "second nature". But one thing they will all tell you is that properly sharpened tools are essential. I think the main advantage of the high end tools is that the edge will last a bit longer and they are nice to use. If you spend all day in a car, you might as well have a good car. But in fact, any decent quality tool, properly sharpened and in skilled hands will produce the kind of surface you are looking for.

[Dan Forman]

What you may want to do is invest in a few good scrapers to use in the meantime as you develop you skill using the gouge. I generally have to fall back on them to minimize any inconsistencies left by my bowl gouges (or their operator). I use a large, heavy, slanted flat scraper on the outside of a bowl, after doing my best at shearscraping with the gouge. I present it at a downward angle and try to barely make contact with the wood, and keep it moving consistently so that it doesn't create any flat spots, but will even out the little grooves lift by my imperfect gouge handling. I'm extra careful when reaching the rim, as it's easy to induce chatter. But at this point, the inside of the bowl isn't finished, and lends some extra support.

The inside is a more difficult proposition, as it's often not as scraper friendly, and I am currently still working on how to get a smooth surface. So far I've had the best luck with a more or less traditional bowl gouge grind, without (or minimal) swept back wings, but still experimenting with details of the grind - best angle and contour of the nose - how far it sticks out.

It seems to be very easy to get chatter marks on the inside rim of the bowl, and very difficult to get rid of them. I finally found a way to do that yesterday, with a 1/2" round nosed scraper, ground to a 70* bevel. I don't know how important the specific angle is, but I just measured it and that's what it came to. The tool is presented flat on the tool rest, not at a shear angle, but tilted downward slightly. Anyway, I make sure I use a small tool rest, and get it within about 1/2" or so of the work, to minimize it's leverage against the tool, and practice the motion to make the desired cut, BARELY engaging the tool in the wood. The motion will be slightly different with the contour of each bowl, so don't skip the practice, you want to know exactly how you need to move the gouge to make minimal contact with the wood. After this, (and a few appropriate animal sacrifices :) ), I run the lathe at at least 1000 RPM, but where there is absolutely no detectable vibration, and take a few whisper thin shavings of the offending area, and check the result. I make sure to feather into and out of the cut, and try to make a pivoting motion to match the curve. With a narrow, freshly sharpened scraper, and minimal cut, presented in this very gentle fashion, there was no chatter produced, and I saved a small platter that I otherwise probably would have tossed. I suppose it all comes down to how thin the rim is, and what kind of wood. One can also support the outside of the bowl with a finger, but then you are left with only one hand on the tool, which may not be enough to give the necessary degree of control for this finesse cut. In this case, which was soft maple, there was no tearout and the finish was quite smooth.

I will continue to keep working on getting a smoother finish with the gouge, but I have these techniques to fall back on until that time comes.

Dan

[Reed Gray]

If you have watched Mike Mahoney's videos, he states that he starts sanding with 80 grit. I have found that when turning my green bowls, they often need at least 120 grit, and some times 80 grit to start. I thing the drying makes any minor flaws more drastic. I have found that when I do turn a dry wood bowl, I can start sanding at higher grits. So, what does it take to turn a bowl.

One, sharp tools. I don't think you need razor sharp, or maybe it is just that that type of edge isn't practical.

Two, cutting edge presentation. The higher the shear angle, the cleaner the cut. A scraping (scraper flat on the tool rest, or gouge handle level and flutes at 90 degrees) cut is zero shear angle and the fibers will actually tear before they cut. A high shear angle is dropping the handle and cutting with the wing at 70 or so degrees to the rotation of the wood. This can also be done by using a fluteless gouge, or a continental roughing gouge rolled onto its side. This can be done with a conventional gouge if you hold the handle level, and roll the flutes more on their side, and cutting with the nose. This cut is better with a more rounded flute shape, and not as good with a V gouge. This is also done with scrapers, also by dropping the handle, and having a good burr. This can be done with a gouge as well. If you are not rubbing the bevel, this is often called a shear scrape. I call it a shear cut though because of the angle, and it is not a scraping cut (one of my idiot syncracies).

You have to be able to steer the gouge so the surface is smooth and even, not a wash board effect. This comes from moving with your body, and is fine tool control. When the steering isn't going smoothly, then the dainty shear cuts come in very handy.

The inside of the bowl is more difficult than the outside. On the outside, you can see the curve of the bowl, and there are no obstructions to the tool. Gouge bevel angle makes no practical difference. Because of the convex shape, the cutting edge is always very close to the bevel rubbing point. On the inside, you can't see profile of the form as well. You have to look and feel, with your fingers to see if there are bumps and humps. Because of the concave shape, if you don't relieve the heel of the bevel, the cutting edge is a lot farther away from the bevel rubbing point, which makes tool control more difficult. Also, because of the transition area, from wall of the bowl to the bottom, one gouge will not do it all unless it is a very open/shallow bowl. You also have problems with the gouge handle running into the bowl rim and the tool rest.

You have to learn to 'feel' the tool as it cuts through the wood. I tend to be heavy handed, and don't always pay enough attention to how the tool is cutting. It really is a touchy/feely/sensitivity thing. You can feel when it is cutting properly if you pay enough attention.

Some times, you just have to use the 80 grit gouge.

robo hippy

[alex grams]

I think I just need to find some more wood and get the practice. I can always sit on my money and buy whatever I need later.

I need to work on my shear cuts also. It seems i keep getting dig ins/catches when I try and do those.

Lots to learn still..

I got so focused last night practicing on clean cuts on the inside of a bowl that I lost track of how thin it was getting. Now I have a bowl with a hole in the bottom! hah.

[John Keeton]

Alex, on the shear cut I have my tool rest close to the work, with very little overhang. I also have swept back wings on my gouge. A catch should not be an issue unless the nose of the gouge contacts the work.

[Jamie Donaldson]

215571A half-round shearscraper is an excellent tool for smooooothing the interior of a bowl, and by rotating it to a 45 degree angle with a pull cut it leaves a surface that easily allows sanding to start with 220 in most cases. I made this tool based on a Sorby product that was doubled in priced many years ago, and I used a 3/4" piece of cold rolled steel from Lowes and a HSS shaper blade I found on a bargain table at Woodcraft, 3 for $5.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

+3 on practice. One my fellow turners roughing cut is smoother than my "finish" cut. I start at 80 grit also. I do notice that I can sand LESS now, but tool presentation and technique has everything to do with cut quality. Oh, more speed helps too. BUT no more speed than you're comfortable with. I recently am getting "comfortable" with 1200 RPM or so. I'm not saying that you don't need to buy good gouges though.... :)

[Jim Burr]

As a famous turner and respected educator once said..."Now...pull out your 80 grit gouge" Move on to technique rather than perfection...I hope I misspelled something for effect rather than my usual stupid.

[Dan Forman]

One other thing I do is to practice getting the best surface I can when roughing too. Even though it is unnecessary and time consuming, it contributes to the 10,000 repetitions.

Dan

[David E Keller]

What's going on here? What if Alex is looking for some support when considering new tools? How's he supposed to sell this idea to the Boss if you folks are telling him just to practice? Shameful!

You definitely need new tools... Then, you need to practice with them!

[Steve Kubien]

So, I think the overwhelming sentiment is that a Thompson/D-way/Glaser is not going to make you a better turner and I agree 100%. What these tools do is result in fewer trips to the grinder because of the better steel used in making them. Variations in flute shape between the three will not make you a better turner either but one of them MAY be easier for you to use. Having said that, developing better technique/skills will mean it wont matter much because you will be able to adapt to whatever is in your hands. Make sense?

Yes, sandings sucks but it is no crime. Sandpaper is a tool like anything else so don't worry about breaking out the 80 grit gouge.

[Roger Chandler]

Just some information for you to think about............we spoke with Richard Raffan at his demo here..........he said he uses a 46 grit wheel to sharpen all his gouges and skews..........of course as has been stated..........he is one of the masters........tool control, the right presentation and the understanding of how a tool cuts is the primary thing behind getting a good finish off the gouge.........

I turned a maple box on Saturday..........got a nice finish off the gouge and only needed to hit it with 320 grit off the gouge..........then 400.........sanding was not really necessary on this particular piece............I could have gone straight to the finish, but wanted a glass smooth surface, so I went ahead with the two grits.

That being said..........I do very much like my D-way CBN wheel at 180 grit..........I am not Raffan by any stretch of the imagination! :rolleyes::D

Different woods do react a bit differently because they have different grain structure............what one might be able to achieve with maple, may not be the exact same with walnut for example.

[Sid Matheny]

Yeah practice, practice, practice and more practice!

And Alex, things will be much better next year when Texas A&M move to the SEC.:)

[Tom Wilson66]

One good way to improve your finish is to watch Bill Grumbine's first video of bowls. He shows several cuts which will improve your finish cuts regardless of the brand of gouge you have. I know these work because I have started using them lately, and get a much better finish cut off the gouge. NOw I just need to practice them a lot.

[alex grams]

Thanks for all of the input guys. While new tools are always fun and nice, I am going to grab that DVD by Bill Grumbine.

I like Raffan's videos and they cover a lot of ground, but don't really show in depth some of the cuts I am working on.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I have to agree with others that practice is probably more important than worrying about gouges. I did have to laugh after seeing Reeds comment. I watched a Bill Grumbine demo and a Mike Mahoney demo. Both made a similar comment. They both said why is everyone afraid to admit they use 80 grit sandpaper?

[Noah Barfield]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted. The replies in this posting really speak to me. I've gotten to the point where I'm no longer experiencing tear-out, but was starting to feel bad about using 80 grit to smooth out some of my cuts. I appreciate the reassurance that everyone has given!

Noah

[robert baccus]

A few observations---a small piece will usually result in smoother cuts. a soft wood such as spalted wood will make you hate scrapers. a very hard wood will make you love them(for finish cuts). the only time i stoop to 80 grit is when i am out of 60 grit.

[alex grams]

And Alex, things will be much better next year when Texas A&M move to the SEC.

God I hope so, but given our last 10 years, I have taken a pretty pragmatic view when it comes to A&M football. I want us to do well, and I hope we respond well to the SEC, but we are going to take our lumps in the next few years, I just hope we develop an attitude that helps us thrive in our new conference, not one where we wither.

A&M to the SEC is like an arranged marriage. You hope it will work out, everyone wants it to work out, but those first few years are going to be tough.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

the only time i stoop to 80 grit is when i am out of 60 grit.

THAT made my day

[Bob Bergstrom]

My gouges cut very clean without tear out, but I always start sanding with 80 grit. I just like setting up a good scratch patten and making sure all is uniform. Also may use a cabinet scraper on the outside and lacquer on the inside if I see any damaged areas. Whatever it takes to make the surface as clean as possible.