Winding sticks

[Mark Stutz]

Well, acquiring a few planes has been fun :D but now its time to start using them to thickness and surface a board. I finally figured out that winding sticks weren't for storing string :o :eek: :D What do all of you learned gentlemen do for winding sticks? Grab a couple pieces of scrap from the bin? Make permanent ones--painted? colored with a sharpie? Fancy ones from maple and ebony :eek: ? aluminum angle from the BORG painted white and black? or something else I haven't been able to think of.

Mark

[Steve Wargo]

I usually use a pair of MDF sticks that I rip whenever I need them, but I really have been meaning to make a nice set to stor under the bench. I think I'll more than likely make them out of a dark wood like walnut or mahogany and then use a boxwood stringing strip on the top side of one for visibility.

[Mike Holbrook]

I saw a pair of them at Highland Hardware last week. There were two of them, about two feet long, check them out......

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1009

[Roy Wall]

I usually use a pair of MDF sticks that I rip whenever I need them, but I really have been meaning to make a nice set to stor under the bench. I think I'll more than likely make them out of a dark wood like walnut or mahogany and then use a boxwood stringing strip on the top side of one for visibility.
My thoughts exactly.......making them pretty that is...:D Why Not!!?? It's all about craftsmanship - that I don't have yet:mad: - but I'm willing to try!!!

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mine are cherry - with square pegs - one on each side so I can assemble it exactly and plane for square and then check and reassemble exactly. I inlaid (poorly) boxwood sights on one side.

[Derek Cohen]

My winding sticks are simply one length of jarrah and one of pine. This makes it easier to see edges at a distance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781787.jpg

[Michael Perata]

Mark

Why not make the winding sticks your first project. Really simple using hand tools and about 2-3 hours worth of work.

I would recommend Rob Cosmans "Hand Planing and Sharpening" DVD from L-N. All you need to know to get started.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Being a lazy Philistine mine are made from aluminum anle from the Borg. One's painted white and the other is black. Maybe some day I'll get around to making a Neander respectable set from some hardwood with contrasting colors. Geesh, another item to add to the list.

[Dick Latshaw]

Being a lazy Philistine mine are made from aluminum anle from the Borg. One's painted white and the other is black.
Heh. At least you painted yours. :) Mine are still aluminum color, but seem to work just fine.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Mine are cherry - with square pegs - one on each side so I can assemble it exactly and plane for square and then check and reassemble exactly. I inlaid (poorly) boxwood sights on one side.

Joel, I really don't understand this. Why is it important to assemble it exactly?

Pam, who has such a keyed set who butterfly shaped keys

[Dennis McDonaugh]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781787.jpgBob, is there any signifiance to the angled ends on the right?

[Joel Moskowitz]

PAm -
the reason for assempling it is that I want to make sure that the top and bottom edges of the winding sticks exactly match. So I assemble them togther - the keys keep them exactly registered and I plane the top (and bottom but I don't care about theat as much) so now I know that the top parts match exactly - but it may be bellied or concave. So I take the winding sticks apart stack them up into the light and check for a gap or a belly. IF none is found I'm golden. OTherwise I can now reassemble them exactly and try again.

If I didn't have the keys to lock them together I could not easily reclamp them with the bottom and top edge exact each time and it's important that the sticks match otherwise you could be off.
As the weather can change periodically I check that assembled they still match and on top of each other there is no gap and every once inawhile I need to make a minor correction.

this by the way is very very accurate and locking pairs is apretty tradtional way of making winding sticks.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, is there any significance to the angled ends on the right?

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781787.jpg


They are ticking sticks for taking off curved profiles.

To get the inside profile of a boat hull to make a bulkhead or frame, you plumb up and secure a piece of doorskin in the interior perpendicular to the keel, then clamp on a ticking stick so it touches a point in the inside planking.....then draw a line atop the ticking stick onto the doorskin and record the distance to the edge of the doorskin as measured by the stick.

Do that anywhere from three to 15 times and you can remove that piece of doorskin, lay it along side your frame stock, and duplicate the exact profile using those ticking sticks. The points made by the ticking sticks are connected with a fairing batten:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6490387/82734141.jpg

They do adequate double duty as winding sticks because we ain't talking flattening a machine table with precision grinders here. That centerboard has 3/16" clearance on each side of its trunk and will live in salt water in all seasons. It's a whole lot more important to mill riftsawn boards with zero grain runout...

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84779985.jpg

....shape the layup equally on both sides to insure any moisture gradient is equaled out...

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781830.jpg

...and align pins, bushings and caps...

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6791366/85168918.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6791366/87637951.jpg

...than it is to get too anal over how flat you got the layup. ;)

[Tyler Howell]

Joel I think we need a picture to see what is really happening here. Thanks for sharing.
PAm -
the reason for assempling it is that I want to make sure that the top and bottom edges of the winding sticks exactly match. So I assemble them togther - the keys keep them exactly registered and I plane the top (and bottom but I don't care about theat as much) so now I know that the top parts match exactly - but it may be bellied or concave. So I take the winding sticks apart stack them up into the light and check for a gap or a belly. IF none is found I'm golden. OTherwise I can now reassemble them exactly and try again.

If I didn't have the keys to lock them together I could not easily reclamp them with the bottom and top edge exact each time and it's important that the sticks match otherwise you could be off.
As the weather can change periodically I check that assembled they still match and on top of each other there is no gap and every once inawhile I need to make a minor correction.

this by the way is very very accurate and locking pairs is apretty tradtional way of making winding sticks.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I'll borrow a camera from the office and try to get a picture up tomorrow or Friday.

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks, Tyler. I'm still not exactly sure what Joel is describing.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Hopefully the following crude sketch may explain what I wrote.

[Joel Moskowitz]

maybe if I make it bigger it will be a little more readable

[Mark Stutz]

Joel,
Thanks! A picture is sometimes worth a thousand words!

Mark

[Derek Cohen]

Mark

Here is another pic, one of my reversable winding sticks (I almost forgot I had a pic of them on my hard drive). These are layers of Jarrah and Pine.

The top is an overview, prior to planing the board flat. The lower pic is a view of the final effort.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Roy Wall]

Derek,

Those are nice--thanks for sharing!!

[Tom McMahon]

made from scrap

[Pam Niedermayer]

PAm -
the reason for assempling it is that I want to make sure that the top and bottom edges of the winding sticks exactly match. So I assemble them togther - the keys keep them exactly registered and I plane the top (and bottom but I don't care about theat as much) so now I know that the top parts match exactly - but it may be bellied or concave. So I take the winding sticks apart stack them up into the light and check for a gap or a belly. IF none is found I'm golden. OTherwise I can now reassemble them exactly and try again....

Thanks, Joel, I understand now, they're to adjust the winding sticks themselves, relative to each other.

Pam

[John Keeling]

Bob, I hope you have some offspring because i'd hate to see this stuff you know get lost. Are you thinking of running any courses in boat-building?

I just about have my first glued, lapstrake plywood sailing boat completed and I know that stuff ain't easy! But I've realized a childhood dream, finally! I want to have a go at carvel planking next on something bigger but its a big step!

Thankyou, I always enjoy your posts! :D


John, NY


http://home.nycap.rr.com/thekeelings/merlin1.jpg

[Tyler Howell]

You Creekers Just Blow me away!!!!

Another day in school:cool:
Thanks

[Karl Laustrup]

Welcome John. That is one sweeeeet looking boat. Now that you're onboard, so to speak, keep us updated with the progress and the maiden voyage.

I was born in Troy, grew up in Center Brunswick [1st 15 years], and still have an aunt, uncle and several cousins in and around Troy. Been back a couple of times in the last few years and going to try and make it again later this year.

Again welcome to the "Creek".

[Dennis Petrillo]

Rob Cosman sells a set and may give you some ideas http://www.robcosman.com/

Good Luck!

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, I hope you have some offspring because i'd hate to see this stuff you know get lost. Are you thinking of running any courses in boat-building?

I just about have my first glued, lapstrake plywood sailing boat completed and I know that stuff ain't easy! But I've realized a childhood dream, finally! I want to have a go at carvel planking next on something bigger but its a big step!




John, NY

Terrific job, John....those lovely hanging knees ready for beams tell me a lot.

I have two boys....one does luthier work and the younger one still in school is my assistant.

I'll let you in on secret well kept by the folks who sell you plans and supplies for plywood boats.....if you can build accurately with plywood and goo, then building traditionally is actually easier and much cheaper.

All boats were built traditionally until around WWII, but then good wood became scarce and plywood was excellent and cheaper. Then as FG took over in the 1950's and most FG used plywood cores, all the expertise gravitated that way....molded FG for production boats and glassed ply or cold-molded for custom, one-off designs.....and the folks who still did carvel and lapstrake died out.

An entire industry built up around plywood and goo...and you'll still be told today almost everywhere you go that the inexperienced can do a better and cheaper job that way...the prices have gone up accordingly....and most plywood has turned to sapwood and void-laden crap.

That's all malarky today, when almost every town in North America has somebody running a modern, portable sawmill with the ability to provide first-rate, green and airdried boat wood from otherwise wasted trees and out regrown forests.

I have also never understood why folks who can bevel a nasty-edged plywood plank to meet it's neighbor accurately at the chine or frame knuckle insist on believing that doing basically the same thing in nice-smelling cedar with any run-of-the-mill Stanley#3 is more difficult. It isn't. Moreover, it's a whole lot more pleasant.

Also contrary to plywood-designer propaganda, you can also easily build them to live their lives on trailers without leaking, too....in either carvel, lapstrake or strip depending on climate and use.

So keep at it...and come up on the net if you need experienced help.

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks to all for your help and especially the pictures. Looks like that will be one of my weekend projects. I have a liitle mahogany just waiting . Think that's probably the most stable of the woods in my scrap bin.

[Derek Cohen]

I thought I might add a trick I use, strongly influenced by a video made by David Charleworth on planing, as an aid in using winding sticks (if this is old news to you, then avert your eyes!).

Just add a shaving(s) or piece of paper (of known thickness) under the end of the "lowered" winding stick until you have equalised the two winding stick levels. This will show you exactly how much wood you have to plane away. So you will know that you need to take 1 or 2 or 3 shavings, etc.

Seems so obvious now, but for years I just went at it by trial-and-error - planing, then checking, then planing some more ....

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Martin]

This may be a silly question, but how do you pronounce "winding"? Long "i" or short "i"?


Is the answer blowing in the wind or on a long and winding road?

[Louis Bois]

the Beatles win on that one...

[Mark Stutz]

One additional question, as I'm working on my version of winding sticks today.

Do they get a finish of some sort...shellac, BLO, wiping varnish, etc. OOORRR do I just leave tham naked :eek: :D :confused:

[Louis Bois]

Go ahead and give em a finish Mark! It will help keep them stable with seasonal changes...but remember that you may have to square them up now and again, so make the finish easily renewable.

If you haven't already started, try and use quarter sawn stock if you've got it...I seem to remember you mentioned you had some mahogany in the scrap pile...should do nicely.

[Brad Pender]

If I didn't have the keys to lock them together I could not easily reclamp them with the bottom and top edge exact each time and it's important that the sticks match otherwise you could be off.

Sorry to revive an old thread but, as a complete newbie, I had a question about the layout of the blind mortises Joel's using on his sticks.

How do you get them to be in the exact same spot on each stick?

I'm imagining once you square and true up the top edge you simply layout a pair of lines the width of the mortise then, once you've ripped them, extend those lines down the new face. From there it's just a matter of deciding where you want the top of the mortise to sit and marking the same distance down on each stick....is that close to right or is their an easier way?

I'd like to make these with a blind mortice on each side but, considering my lack of chisels and skills, I'll probably end up just drilling the holes prior to ripping then glue a dowel in one side. Just curious on how the blind mortise route works....

[Joel Moskowitz]

I'm sorry but I don't actually remember preciely how I did it. It took no time at all and IIFC I was concerned about getting the keys tight so that there would not be slop in assembly - which is why I made square keys instead of using a dowel.
Certainly I laid them out pretty carefully used a mortise guage on both pieces at the same setting and then clamping them together open to drop the vertical lines on both peices simaltaneaously . I knew that ones the mortises and keys were in I could easily plane the top, bottom and sides with the sticks assembled so they match so it was more important to get the keys fit right with respect to each other than anything else.
anyway as far as I can remember - also knowing how sloppy I usually work I made the keys, then fit one in each stick (one gets glued in on each stick so there is only one way of assembling the pair) then I chopped the mortise intentionally a touch small and then pared slightly tapered to fit the mortises tightly. The ends of the keys are chamfered to get them into the mortise easily. Once I got one. I checked the layout (and I think I was a little off) so I again mortised a little small and pared with a minor correction. When all done I put the winding sticks together and planes all the edges and shot the ends so everything matches perfectly. I fitted the keys with the winding sticks all square and didn't plane the outter taper or inlay the boxwood targets until I was done with the keys because it was far easer to work with square stock and I figured the keys were the hardest part so I wanted to make sure that was OK before I spent time on anything else.

I never put finish on them BTW because they occasionly do need corrective planing.

Just a thought - don't worry about "your lack of skills and tools" THis isn't brain surgery. And especially if you are new at this sort of thing it's good practice. ALL cabinetry starts out with accurate layout and paying attention. The accurate layout gives you a solid foundation and paying attention to what you are doing means if you make an error you will catch it and compensate. I don't think I ever referred to any measurements at all when making my sticks. Layout was all done with a square and a mortise gauge and important measurements were all scribed one from the other. What is amazing about winding sticks is that with fairly crude tools you can make an amazingly important and accurate tool.

[Frank Chaffee]

Mark Stutz (and others),

There has been plenty of good advice here regarding winding sticks. Derek Cohen’s suggestion to use shims of known thickness to see what depth across a given dimension to remove to flatten is valuable. Also valuable are the suggestions to use contrasting shades of wood for the two sticks.

I will add two suggestions here regarding the finishing of winding sticks. First, provide a matte finish on the sticks. This will lessen reflected light.

Second, relieve the sharp edges of the sticks where you will be sighting across them. This will lessen the even more confusing and annoying refracted light.

Frank

…And I am with Louis Bois that The Beatles version is the winding winner here. Kudos also to peter paul mary and so many before them.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I would suggest to not use contrasting shades of wood - different rates of expansion are just not worth the trouble. That's why traditional winding sticks just have inserted targets at the end. No change in movement and with a lamination on the entire top of one stick you can get all sorts of twist. (you also don't really care about anything except consistently sighting at the ends of the sticks - so a target all across the top edge wouldn't be very useful anyway). THe best way to achive accuracy is length - the longer the winding sticks the better. - as long as you can handle them easily and keep them flat - they double as straightedges also.

Use a wood that doesn't weigh much too - easier to handle - less change of dropping (you typically handle these from the ends) and if you do drop it on your work less chance of those annoying dents. Mine are cherry scrap.

I've never hear of using shims but once you have used your winding sticks for a little while you will find that that actual amount of material needed to be removed is pretty obvious. You sight down and see that the sticks are really misaligned. then you plane a bit off and see how much better the alignment is - very quickly you learn how planing something effects the wind of the wood and squaring up the wood becomes amost automatic. THere is a tendency amongst many today to try to quantify everything: To get pricisely repeatable results using a gadget. You will find developing your eye, trusting your skill, and most importantly learning to understand the feedback of what you are doing is much much more reliable than a specific measurement. It's like riding a bicycle. You don't stay on by looking at a level mounted on the steering wheel, you learn first to balance and then to look for balance instictivly. Most of woodworking is like that too.

[Steve Wargo]

I made a set a while ago out of Walnut. Then inlaid some maple stinging on the edges of them. One piece dyed black the other left natural. So far they are holding nice and true, and are quite easy to see the variations.

[James Mittlefehldt]

For those of you who get the Lee Valley catalogue supplements there is a letter from Rob Lee on the inside front cover concerning winding sticks in the most recent. They have introduced aluminium winding sticks and he apologises profusely for doing so, as he seems to think it is an insult to woodworkers intelligence, and encourages one and all to go to their shops and make them instead.

For some reason I found it very amusing, though at the end he mentioned that perhaps in making your winding sticks you might find a tool you need to help which he has no problem supplying.

I use to use two pieces of Yellow Poplar as one was the greenish hue and the other was much lighter but I lost them in my last move and have not as yet replaced them.

[Gary Curtis]

Winding is pronounced with a long A, as in winding a clock. I bought a set in April. Fate steered me to the UK eBay website, and to a gentleman in London unloading a large shop full of tools. Don't hate me guys. I bought a pair of ebony winding sticks with white plastic tips. For $18.

They were handmade. It feels good just to hold them.

Gary Curtis
Los Angeles

[Kelly Anderson]

Lee Valley now has some.

[Frank Chaffee]

Joel,
Whether woodworkers can make biwood laminates of differently colored woods that remain stable and straight for use as winding sticks is currently beyond my own knowledgebase. I merely suggest that contrasting colors can be useful for sighting across them. Shop lighting and background also come into play in their use. I have hung a tarp in the background to remove confusing images… but I am easily confused.

I like your solution for stable storage of winding sticks using pegs and sockets. Your use of reference targets of contrasting woods is also quite innovative. The feel and sense of scale that your body has learned in planning with out measuring is something that many of us will be emulating for a long time to come.

Winding sticks have other uses in the small shop than flattening of boards. It is for those uses that I wish to encourage techniques that allow one to mathematically (arithmetically?), calculate out of plane. In a pinch on a job I once used winding sticks and my longest lens with a doubler attached to progress thru adjustments.

Many uses of a valuable tool.

Frank

[Frank Chaffee]

My dear Gary (Curtis),
I cannot thank you enough for your definitive explanation of the pronunciation of “winding” as a woodworking term. However, try as I might, I cannot find the letter “A” in “winding stick”, or "winding a clock"; at least not where it counts for anything.

I have friends up there in Trinity County who will visit you if you do not clarify this for me.

Also, I really look forward to seeing pics of your new shop as you set it up, guy!

Hope I can visit next time I am through there,
Frank

[Rob Lee]

For those of you who get the Lee Valley catalogue supplements there is a letter from Rob Lee on the inside front cover concerning winding sticks in the most recent. They have introduced aluminium winding sticks and he apologises profusely for doing so....

(snip)


Hi James -

Thanks for that, glad someone reads those letters.....:D

Cheers -

Rob

(no - we're not going to do aluminum stickers.....:eek: )

[Joel Moskowitz]

Frank,
I agree with your point on contrast - that's why lighter targets are better than darker targets. I can't recall ever seeing a winding stick with dark targets. Mine are cherry (dark) with Boxwood targets (light). You see ivory targets a lot too. With the actual winding sticks dark, in a dark shop the light targets just pop out at you. You just want them at the ends of the sticks so that you get a consistent reading - all you see is the light target at the end - no distracting middle part.
Painting targets works ok - but when you have to plane any corrections you lose the top layer of paint - which is why the targets were always inlaid.

Incidently don't credit me with any innovation. I didnt' invent any of this - The design is traditional from a time when people needed tools that worked.

[Gary Curtis]

Keystroke error. Make that "long I".

GC

[Frank Chaffee]

Thanks Gary,
I'll call off the dogs.

One of them may have drilled your well.

Frank

[Frank Chaffee]

Joel,
Thanks for your explanation of the rationale for placing two targets a known distance apart. Now I understand how a body could learn to translate the information sighted without thinking and do the compensatory planning.

Again, thanks,
Frank

[Mark Stutz]

Wow,
I've been away from the Creek for a while, and am trying to catch up. I basically copied Joel's sticks, though used round mortises by doing thru holes and glueing in dowels. I also inlaid contrasting bands, wenge and maple, across the entire length. I put some shellac on them, figuring it would be easy to repair when I had to true them up.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17917&highlight=Winding+sticks
Since these were done a few months back, I have had a chance to use them. I would never have imagined that two little strips of wood could be so accurate! If you have never made or used winding sticks, you are truly missing out. These are also a great beginning Neander project...gives you a chance to try out and use lots of tools if you want. I experimented with 3 different planes to make the rabbett for the inlay.