Purchased 2 New Trotec Speedy 300's

[Keith Outten]

Most of you know that I run the sign shop at Christopher Newport University. At CNU we have three large buildings under construction, the opening dates for the buildings are so close together we have had to start making signs for all 3 projects at the same time. We just finished CNC machining over 850 ADA door sign plaques that are now ready to engrave. We will start making the area of refuge, fire evacuation, and all the other specialty signs in a week or two so we have a very long way to go before the first install happens in July. The specialty signs can take between two to three hours of engraving time and when you add up the hours for the three buildings it is more hours than we have time before the buildings open. We only have two people in the sign shop so engraving on the second shift is not an option so we purchased a Trotec Speedy 300 with a 75 watt power supply which will allow us to run two engravers simultaneously and cut the hours in half.

Sorry, there won't be any pictures of the new machine, the state has issued a prohibition against sharing photographs unless permission is ascertained from the Attorney Generals office :)

I was so impressed with the Trotec and based on a glowing review from Mike Null and others who own Trotec machines I purchased a Speedy 300 80 watt for Northwind Associates which is my sign company and the owner of SawMill Creek. My new machine should be arriving sometime after the first of the year and since I own it I will be glad to share pictures and information concerning the new laser as I put it through its paces. I have a couple of sign jobs in house right now, one school and one exterior sign, they will most likely be completed before my Speedy 300 is delivered but I hope to be successful bidding a couple jobs in the near term.

My old Epilog Legend and the APLazer machine will be leaving my shop in a few days so I will be back to one laser engraver when the new Trotec arrives.

Woo Hooooo, ADA signs rock the house and pay the bills. Hope more of you will look into adding ADA work to your sign companies.

:)
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[Scott Shepherd]

Congratulations Keith! You will be happy, I'm sure. Our Speedy 300 arrived last week so I've been messing with it when I can.

I'll share photos soon.

It's unbelievably fast and smooth. Ours is 75W and it will rock and roll. Pictures and videos soon, I promise.

We've now owned an Epilog (no longer have), a Universal, and a Trotec. We'll keep the Universal and the Trotec, so we're adding capacity too.

[Randy Digby]

Good for you. We love our Speedy 100. Wish we had one of the big boys but ours does everything we need for our product line and I'm not sure more power would really gain anything for us - that's a good thing for the pocketbook. Have fun, Keith.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Steve,

I'm glad to hear you were able to get the new laser engraver, the last time we spoke you were still considering the purchase.

I have a sample of your vinyl work to share, as soon as I can get the pictures off of my camera I will post a picture :)

I have sign blanks in my shop that need to have the window edges routed this morning so I can get back to engraving them and then start another batch. My install date is already a bit late on this one but it is a retrofit for an existing school. Still I hate to be so late with the holidays just around the corner.
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[Keith Outten]

Thanks Randy,

More power will cut the time down considerably. At 35 watt it takes me about 25 minutes to engrave each sign, at 60 watts it takes about 12 minutes each. I hope that the 80 watt will reduce the time to about 6 minutes which will shorten a project that has 400 door signs. I found out first hand that power without speed isn't a viable situation so the speed of the Trotec combined with a more powerful laser will be just the ticket.

The Speedy 300 also has a larger cabinet and engraving table. I can use the larger table to offer even larger specialty signs. After using the Xenetech laser at CNU for five years it will be a real pleasure to move it out of my office and replace it with a machine that has a driver that isn't full of bugs. I plan to move the Xenetech to the shop area and let my assistant use the wretched beast because I am all out of patience with the thing.
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[Zvi Grinberg]

My old Epilog Legend and the APLazer machine will be leaving my shop in a few days so I will be back to one laser engraver when the new Trotec arrives.

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If I remember well, the APLaszer was relatively new at your shop, and you were very happy about it.

[Keith Outten]

Zvi,

Yep, I was pretty excited about the features of the APLazer. The only problem I had with the machine was the speed, even with 80 watts of power the speed was to slow to engrave ADA signs at the pace I need to support my schedule and I don't have the shop space to keep two machines. My Epilog was in my shop office, even so it had to go because I will be moving my office into another building this Spring. Climbing the stairs to get to my second floor shop office has become a problem. My age now dictates the kind of work I can do these days so I will continue to adjust my shop machines to suit.

I am hesitant to let my ADA work suffer in order to add new products such as engraving stone and ADA work has picked up again recently.

I downsized my CNC Router last year from a 4 by 8 ShopBot to a 4 by 3 CAMaster Stinger. I hope to be able to purchase a new 4 by 8 CAMaster Cobra later this year if business keeps improving and be able to keep the smaller Stinger. My long term goal is to have two top notch laser engravers and two CNC routers. I will have to start selling some of my more traditional woodworking machines so I will have the necessary space for the four primary machines. I haven't used my table saw, planer or my joiner in a long time but I just haven't been able to part with them yet. Should business remain at the current level one Trotec laser and one Stinger will be able to handle the load and I won't be forced to sell my woodworking machines.
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[Scott Shepherd]

I've been running the Universal and the Trotec all day today, going on 12 hours. Keith, if it's not too late, send the Trotec back. That dang thing has worked me half to death today!

Wow.....talk about cranking some work out. Wow.......did I say Wow yet? Wow.

Stunning machine. Now I wish I had 100W :) Maybe not, it's bury me with work to feed it.

[Mike Null]

Guys, you can count on me not to say "I TOLD YOU SO".:D

Congratulations on your purchase and may you have the success I've had with mine. I must admit to being a bit envious of the 75 watts as mine is 45.

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

I started with a 35 watt laser, it is painfully slow now after using a 60 watt machine but only when I engrave Corian. Most materials engrave in reasonable periods of time even with just 35 watts until you compare the performance to a new machine that you can engrave at much higher speeds. The trade off of power versus investment in a machine drives the decision to purchase like any other machine I guess. Honestly, outside of Corian engraving jobs it is rare that I need more than 35 watts since I don't do a lot of vector cutting other than letters that I cut for my ADA signs. Cutting letters at slow speeds and low power settings has always given me the best quality, I wish the reverse was true because I need to cut about 60 sheets of letters and numbers for the next batch of door signs and it will probably take a week or more to cut, sort and put them into storage bins.

I have never run 850 door signs in a batch before or anything close to that number. We have boxes of door signs stored everywhere in the office at CNU and I am now using a cart to roll boxes of signs down the hallway from the shop to my office and back. I plan to use the old Xenetech machine to engrave the large signs because we won't have to change jobs but once every two hours so we can run the CNC router at the same time. The Trotec will engrave all of the door signs, it should take just enough time to change the template and send it to the machine before the last one finishes engraving.

This Winter wil go by very fast given the pace we will be working.
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[Mike Null]

Keith

I started with a 25 watt ULS which worked just fine for several years but the speed and power of the Trotec have been a real help on much of my work. I don't need a 75 watt machine but it would be faster.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Hey Keith,
Welcome aboard. I am sure you will enjoy your new toys. You are 100% right that speed without power does nothing for throughput. I look forward to seeing some pictures that won't trigger the take off of black unmarked helicopters.:eek:

[Keith Outten]

Michael,

Thanks, I'm really happy to join the Trotec club. This will no doubt be one of my favorite machines. You and Mike Null should both get a finders fee for the Trotec Lasers I purchased, I read every word both of you have shared here about your machines. So far the folks at Trotec have been absolutely the nicest people I have had the pleasure of working with. They have suffered though a lot of phone calls and even more email helping me select the best machine that fits my needs.

Now I just have to wait for the delivery truck :)

Lots of pictures to follow..........
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[Keith Outten]

We received our Trotec Speedy 300 yesterday at CNU. The unloading was quick and painless, the truck driver did all the work in less than 5 minutes. The box design they use was a snap to remove from the machine, you cut the straps and lift off the top, the sides lift right off, nothing could be easier. Once the box was removed the Speedy 300 was totally sealed in a plastic bag with a huge bag of dessicant inside. We used a set of ramps to roll the machine off of the pallet to the floor so we didn't have to lift the machine at all.

Monday morning I have to install a wall bracket for the dust collector and cut a hole in the shop wall for the vent. The wall is brick but it won't take but a few minutes to make a hole with an air chisel. Once this is done we should be on our way.

The Speedy 300 is a beautiful machine, built extremely well with every part of the machine accessible for easy maintenance. Don from Trotec is scheduled to help us install the machine Monday afternoon per telecom and he will be visiting us on Friday to check out our new machine and provide the necessary training. So far this has been an enjoyable experience, the people at Trotec are professionals that take care of every detail and they have kept me informed every step of the way.

The second Trotec machine (mine) should be delivered to my workshop in another couple of weeks. Knowing how easy the process has been at CNU I expect to have my machine up and running real quick since my shop already has the dust collection fan ready to hook to the machine, the space has been cleared and my computer is ready to go.

Sorry, there won't be any pictures until my machine is delivered due to state regulations that prohibit my posting any photographs.
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[Tim Bateson]

Sounds like an impressive machine & congrats on the deluge of work.

[Scott Shepherd]

Great news Keith! Can't wait for you to run it. I will say this in advance..... you're about to be frustrated by speeds and power settings. The settings are SOOOOO different than what I'm used to, it's a challenge. For instance, on the Universal, my vector speed might be 10 on something. Well, 10 speed is WAYYYYYY different on this machine, so I might end up at 1.5 on the speed. 1.5 is faster than the 10, but it's a concept that escapes me to this point :)

It was a really easy setup for us too. We rolled it into place, clamped the exhaust hose on, turned it on, ran a job just a few minutes later. We were literally running jobs on it shortly after that.

It's been an outstanding asset for us. I can't tell you how much time it's saving. It has doubled our profits on many jobs we run. I don't think doubling your profits is a bad thing :)

[Tim Bateson]

Steve (Scott), raises a good point. That has got to be frustrating to throw away all of the settings you've used for years and re-learn all of the materials & job types all over again. I have a lot of confedence in repeat work as I've done them over & over. This would throw me for a loop. However.... I can see that once over that initial transition it would be well worth it.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Tim,

The schedule ahead of me at CNU is a challenge, we are already going full steam with a goal of getting as many signs made as early as possible so it gives us some slack on the tail end.

Work in my shop at home is also picking up as I have been marketing again but it isn't where I want to be so more marketing is necessary. Because I am a state employee I am exempt from any state projects so I can only market the private sector. I have an ADA door sign job in house now doing a retro-fit of a small private school, this one is near completion so I won't be able to use the new Trotec until the next project which I hope is just around the corner ?
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[Keith Outten]

Steve,

I knew when i purchased the Trotec's I would have to go through my materials list and establish a whole new set of parameters. The one at CNU is 75 watt and mine is 80 watt so settings for neither machine will be close enough to share. It's a great problem to have though :)

Doubling profits sounds terrific!
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[Michael Kowalczyk]

Keith and other Trotec'rs,
The material setting library is great. I have a bunch of files made specifically to each customer to keep them optimized to each client.
NEVER and I mean NEVER use an engrave setting when you are not going to engrave. The program will scan your job looking for any black parts (that is if you use black as your engrave color) to engrave. This alone will save you a bunch of time.
My color mapping is as follows:
Black-Engrave only (I have always used black to engrave since this was the only option for many years. Now you can use red also)
Red- Mark only usually set at 30-50% pwr and 3% speed. That is the speed I found to be the most efficient. Try it at 10% and then at 3% and watch the actual machine time. 3% is actually the fastest at least on my laser.
Blue- is for all interior cuts settings vary to material.
Desert Blue- is the final outline cut

Keith-The settings may not be exact but it can be a good starting point and even though they are only 5 watts apart on paper, they could be 10 watts+- apart depending on how hot they are. So if you know the difference in actual wattage, you can use that % difference to help dial in your settings a little quicker.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Michael,

We got the machine installed yesterday, ran the dust collection through a brick wall and installed the software. Late yesterday afternoon i was on the phone with Don Mayhew bringing the engraver to life for the first time. Today I will try to spend some time with the machine, it is radically different than any laser I have ever used so I expect it will take some time to get acclimated to the software. I hope by the end of the day today I will understand your previous post, right now I don't know enough to even ask a question :)

Thanks again for your help...........

[Art Anderson]

Don is the best! When I was having trouble reaching the now-fired rep for my area, I went to the trade show in Charlotte 5 years ago. Universal reps ignored me, Epilog handed me brochures, Don greeted me, spent considerable time with me, ran the machine through its paces, and had a check in his hand when I left. I respect the man immensely. And, he knows his stuff!

You'll get used to the machine fairly quickly. The one thing I wish Trotec had was a good solid manual on the Job Control software. There's a lot of little goodies that are built in, but aren't obvious. The best way to get familiar, is just burn stuff up! Have fun!!

[Mike Null]

I complained loud and long about the lack of a printed manual but I have gotten past it and use the PDF version as needed.

Their tech support has always been top notch so they got me over a couple of rough spots as I was getting started.

[Keith Outten]

I have set aside a block of time in todays schedule to run the new laser. I have some large engraving jobs that should take some time in the machine so we can get a feel for the time savings over our other machine.

Mike, where is the PDF manual for the Job Control software? Is it on the CD that came with the machine?
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[Scott Shepherd]

where is the PDF manual for the Job Control software? Is it on the CD that came with the machine?


Yes, it's on the CD.

Here's what I think about it so far. The Trotec table is a blank slate. It likes for you to make your job page sizes the size of the actual job. For instance, if you have a 2" x 10" name plate, it likes for you to have a 2" x 10" page size in Corel and then when you output it, you have to make the output page size 2" x 10". Then it's sitting in the job list for you to use when you want. So you could have a dozen jobs, all for different customers, all ready to burn, in the list of jobs in job control. Then you drag and drop them onto the table (plate) however you want. You could very easily be doing jobs for 5 customers in a single run, with little or no additional effort, and all 5 files would be individual files, so you don't have to physically go into corel and combine jobs. That's powerful stuff there.

However, that's radically different than any Epilog or Universal I have run. They seem to like 1 job at a time. That's a concept I'm still working hard to figure out.

Just remember this one thing- your corel page size MUST match your print output size. If it doesn't, it'll scale it to fit and distort your job. I haven't had to pay attention to that dimension in years now, so that's been the biggest learning curve for me. I also might be missing something on it, it's still early in my time with it.

[Dan Hintz]

I imagine the biggest problem with multiple jobs would then be aligning them on the table at the appropriate positions... a jig would help, but I can't see making a new jig with every new mix of jobs that comes along.

[Scott Shepherd]

Not a problem at all Dan. If you have a sheet of Rowmark and they are all the same material, you can drag, drop, tweak them wherever you want. You can also put "markers" on the plate and drag and drop to the markers. Markers can be added all over the plate and any dimensions you want. It's very easy to do.

[Dan Hintz]

This is what I'm imagining, so correct me if I'm not looking at it properly. You have a blank table, lets say 24" square for simplicity. You need a 12"x12" marble tile raster engraved, an oblong acrylic round engraved, and some 1"x3" metal tags marked. How on Earth do you line all of those things up on the same table?

I understand you can mark a point in the drawing and have the red pointer jump to that spot on the table, but aligning things not along an edge (particularly if not square) would be extremely difficult by hand.

[Mike Null]

Keith

On checking I found the manuals in the Trotec folder in the program file. Open the folder then "MNL" and you'll find all the manuals for all machines. I did not find a Job Control specific file though.

Dan

You can place markers any where you want then drag the job from the Queue on the right to the marker.

[Dee Gallo]

This is what I'm imagining, so correct me if I'm not looking at it properly. You have a blank table, lets say 24" square for simplicity. You need a 12"x12" marble tile raster engraved, an oblong acrylic round engraved, and some 1"x3" metal tags marked. How on Earth do you line all of those things up on the same table?

I understand you can mark a point in the drawing and have the red pointer jump to that spot on the table, but aligning things not along an edge (particularly if not square) would be extremely difficult by hand.

Dan,

I might be a simple solution person, but I do this kind of thing all the time just using the rulers. I can test the position with the red dot and then run the job(s) without fear of mis-alignment. Of course, it is imperative that your rulers line up exactly with your document setup. Running a vector outline to make a paper template also works. Just because technology exists does not mean we have to use it for everything.

cheers, dee

[Dan Hintz]

Sure, but that means you can only reliably set things up that touch the rulers... something in the middle of the table is much trickier.

I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I just don't get the impression it's as versatile as the option would first appear.

[Scott Shepherd]

Think of it more in this situation Dan- you have an order for 50 6" x 6" tiles. You can drag and drop any of them next to each other on the fly. Mess one up, drag and drop it back on the table, no need to go back to corel and make a special file to redo that one.

It's very useful. It's strength isn't on something like a variety of materials, the strength is on the same materials, like a sheet of plastic, a sheet of acrylic, etc.

[Mike Null]

Dan

The jobs need not be aligned along a ruler. The markers can be set with precision in job control. They can't overlap but you can see that in WSYWG. They can be engraved as just a selection (no plate) or with a given plate size. I don't happen to use this feature but I use the drag and drop for single jobs almost every day.

The ability to begin a job where ever you want with the marker allows me to use scraps of plastic without tedious measuring. In my case I position the scrap material in the machine and move the engraver to a spot which allows me to use remaining material and begin the job there.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Hey Guys,
Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding and use is that you can run several different jobs but they must use the same material settings. Have any of you been able to run different jobs like Dan is posting?

You can access the manual from the "Help" menu.

[Mike Null]

I agree with you, Mike.

[Keith Outten]

We were able to engrave several test pieces yesterday and at the end of our shift we ran our first production job. The Fire Evacuation plaque was 14" by 9" in size so the time it took to engrave it was what we were interested in more than anything. We had run this job before on another machine and it took over two hours, the Trotec did the same job in 41 minutes. The quality of the Corian engraving was pristine.

I'm skeptical at this point, the speed of the Speedy 300 is faster than I expected so I need to run a few more jobs today to verify that it is really as fast as it seems to be. This is to good to be true so before I start jumping up and down I need to run several ADA door signs this morning to confirm how fast this machine can engrave Corian. If the results confirm what we learned yesterday the time savings over the next few months will be incredible. If we can cut six months of engraving hours to three it will have a major impact on our current schedule, heck it would save our bacon :)

Honestly I was very apprehensive about learning to use the new software but we were able to engrave simple jobs without much of a learning curve. Mike Null called me yesterday morning and shared a few tips that helped me get up and running even faster than I would have been able to otherwise. Advanced stuff may be more of a challenge but for now I am pleased that we could produce our first production job on the first day.

Monday morning we start engraving 850 door signs that take an average of six minutes each on the old Xenetech laser. If we can cut the time in half or less than half I will be amazed. After the door signs are complete we will start engraving all of the large signs like the Fire Evacuation, Area of Refuge, etc. There are hundreds of these signs to make for three large commercial buildings so our schedule over the next 16 months will be different than I had planned if the Trotec is as fast as it seems to be.

Stay Tuned for more data..........
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[Scott Shepherd]

Keith, keep quiet from this point on ;) No need to encourage people to stop buying slow machines :)

What you found is accurate. No reason to be skeptical. It's true. I cannot believe how much work this machine can crank out.

[Mike Null]

Not to mention that I am just completing 6 and a half years without a minute of down time. Mike Kowalczyk's machine is older than mine and i don't think he's had any down time either.

I haven't replaced any parts either though I'm considering buying a back up lens due to all the wood I'm engraving and cutting.

Yesterday I ran 415 anodized tags 1.5 x 3 with 4 to 5 lines of 12 point text; every plate different. My average run time on a 48 piece load was 8 minutes. (the price on that job was $5.90 per tag)

[Scott Shepherd]

Just think Mike, you could have bought 3 machines for the same price and been running 3 machines instead :p

I mean $35 a minute........come on....... :)

Like I said to Keith, let's keep it quiet or everyone will own one. Now I know why all the people that own them never say anything on forums :)

[Mike Null]

I just installed the latest driver with the job estimator. I was doing some small personalization jobs and noticed that the estimator indicated it would take 17 seconds. I ran the job and it took 18 seconds. How could they make such a mistake?;)

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Monday morning we start engraving 850 door signs that take an average of six minutes each on the old Xenetech laser. If we can cut the time in half or less than half I will be amazed. After the door signs are complete we will start engraving all of the large signs like the Fire Evacuation, Area of Refuge, etc. There are hundreds of these signs to make for three large commercial buildings so our schedule over the next 16 months will be different than I had planned if the Trotec is as fast as it seems to be.

Stay Tuned for more data..........
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Is it Monday yet? :) Really looking foward to reading how different (i.e. faster) those jobs will be compared to your old machines.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

I just installed the latest driver with the job estimator. I was doing some small personalization jobs and noticed that the estimator indicated it would take 17 seconds. I ran the job and it took 18 seconds. How could they make such a mistake?;)

I think it is the resistance in your cables to the laser. Just like a good entertainment/HI-FI system, you may need to get some gold plated connectors and better cables.

Maybe this one might help http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=4704 but only you can decide if it's worth it :D to save a second. But with some of those jobs you run, seconds will turn into hours that will turn into days and they will add up fast.

[Keith Outten]

Don Mayhew, the Trotec Tech Rep visited our shop this afternoon to check our new machine and provide training. I now have a technical reason why the Speedy 300 is so fast. A layman such as myself would never have attributed the increase in speed to the acceleration specs. It seems that the Trotec has a 5g acceleration speed which is a major factor behind why the machine is so fast. When you also consider the difference in laser power (60 watt vs 75 watt) the bottom line is a very fast machine.

Our initial tests on ADA door signs using the same drawing we used on the 60 watt Xenetec laser shows the Trotec at 4:15 vs the Xenetec at just over six minutes. A 30% performance improvement, however Don thinks he can beat the 4:15 number tomorrow morning by tweaking the engraving settings a bit more. All of our testing is based on acquiring a depth of engraving of 0.032" to 0.034".

This makes perfect sense when you consider that the longer the job runs there are more passes required so the acceleration factor continues to contribute to the performance increase. The large plaque we ran on Wednesday afternoon provided a much larger time savings (41 minutes vs over 2 hours on the Xenetech 60 watt).

I knew all to well that a laser with 15 additional watts would be faster but the speed we were experiencing was way to fast to attribute to just a few more watts. When Steve told us that his new machine was really fast I figured he must have been experiencing a major increase in performance not just a faster machine.

On the software side of the equation Don showed us some tips and tricks to use the new features to our advantage based on what he learned about the materials and techniques we use to produce signs. Don will return tomorrow morning to complete our training, every minute he has been in our shop has been a learning experience.
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[Randy Digby]

Keith, tell Don that Randy said to show you the "O" ring. He'll explain after he finishes laughing or crying.

[art baylor]

I think it is the resistance in your cables to the laser. Just like a good entertainment/HI-FI system, you may need to get some gold plated connectors and better cables. Maybe this one might help http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=4704 but only you can decide if it's worth it :D to save a second. But with some of those jobs you run, seconds will turn into hours that will turn into days and they will add up fast. Michael: Besides being way over priced, Monster is a great example of corporate greed. Save yourself some money. Support an honest company. http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back Art

[Keith Outten]

After Don left yesterday we ran our first ADA door signs, a group of five for a small job. The engraving time was 4 minutes and 9 seconds so the time savings over our Xenetech is just over 2 minutes for each window style sign at a depth of 0.032"

We also engraved a few window inserts and one Maximum Occupancy sign. These engraved so quick we didn't even feel it necessary to note the time. The quality of engraving was superior to any other machine I have used.

The savings will add up real quick over 850 door signs, the first group of 400 are scheduled to be installed in July/August. The larger signs will be icing on the cake. Monday when we start engraving door signs all day long we will be able to start collecting real world data comparing the two machines that includes the total time of production including sending files and changing blanks, etc.

We got the hang of the Job Control software easily loading jobs and making changes to tune and tweak as necessary. Having a list of jobs that we run every day right at our fingertips is convenient and reduces the time required to search for a particular job. I am now studying how we do things day to day to see where we can use the software even more to our advantage by using the multiple plates feature, possibly engraving up to eight ADA signs at a time rather than individually. This may not pan out for us because we normally don't save individual drawings, we edit the template and send the job to the engraver over and over. The time it takes to engrave a door sign is just enough time to edit the template and send it to the machine. If the prep time required to produce eight files is the same as what we do now there wouldn't be any advantage.

We still plan to use the Xenetec laser, mostly loading large plaques with long run times so the two of us can run the Trotec and our CNC Router. Both laser engravers will have to run almost continuously for the next six months in order to remain on schedule. Our CNC work will taper off in a couple of months after all the plaques are machined and ready to engrave. At that time one of us will start installing letters, numbers and braille.

Although I don't have a delivery date for the new Trotec I purchased for my shop yet we are very close :)
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[Scott Shepherd]

Keith, sounds like your going through the same thing we are. I look at the job control and how it handles jobs and I can't help but think I'm going about my work flow the wrong way. Having been pretty happy with my work flow for the last 4 years, it's challenging me to decide to change everything I do for a better way or continue doing things I'm comfortable with. I'm trying really hard to move in the new direction. I just get the feeling I haven't completely understood all I need to understand before committing.

When we bought our first laser 4 years or so ago, I wish I would have known then, what I know now. If so, we would have had a Trotec for the last 4 years. The machine is incredible. There are things I don't like about the Job Control, minor things that need some work, but hopefully we can work with Trotec and get some things updated. Simple things like being able to sort the jobs by time/date, rather than just have them all in alphabetical order. It allows you to sort it by the job number, but when you do that, you lose the description, which means it's meaningless to me. Being able to have a last in, top of the list sort feature would be VERY helpful.

I do love the machine though. It's a real rocket ship.

[Dee Gallo]

I'm reading this thread with interest and have a question which may seem silly: since a lot of us price jobs based on time in the laser, does that mean you guys with these superfast machines either lower your prices or have to compensate somehow? Does your $1 per minute become $2 per minute for example?

just wondering, dee

[Scott Shepherd]

Price it like you have your current machine and take the check :)

[Dan Hintz]

I'm reading this thread with interest and have a question which may seem silly: since a lot of us price jobs based on time in the laser, does that mean you guys with these superfast machines either lower your prices or have to compensate somehow? Does your $1 per minute become $2 per minute for example?

just wondering, dee

Don't price by the minute... the customer could care less how long it takes (unless they're looking for a reason to get a discount). Price by the job, and determine if your system is fast enough to make a profit.

[Dee Gallo]

Personally, I always price by the job. I was just speculating about how that technique would work when the machine changes.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes, we price by the job too. Of course we have a ball park figure we'd like to get per hour, so that's part of the equation, but I get asked every now and then "how much do you charge per hour", and I always think "Why do you care", but I never say that. I could say $10 per hour, but it might take me 6 times longer than the next guy.

Actual funny story related to that. I was part of a team that took over another company in hopes of pulling it out of the toilet. There was one guy there that was slow. I mean Slllllloooooooowwwwwwww when it came to work. He had one speed and it wasn't far from "Stop". It drove my boss crazy and he told me repeatedly "Start the process of getting rid of him", so I did. Time went on, we let him go, and then the next month, when the numbers were run, we were down. My boss racked his brain (and mine) trying to figure out why because every thing was better. More work, more throughput, more everything, but less money.

Then we realized that the slow guy was working on time and material jobs all the time, so the slower he was, the more we got paid. We replaced him with a good worker, who got the jobs done quicker, so we made less money :)

DOOOOHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[Keith Outten]

I stopped doing traditional engraving jobs several years ago so I don't have any input on the best method of charging customers.

When I started making ADA signs I adjusted my fee per sign as close to industry standards as possible, my goal was to offer a better product at the same price as my competitors. This works well for ADA door signs because they are less of a custom type of job and the same applies to most other building signs. When I produce more signs per hour I can make more signs in a day thus more profit based on less labor and an increase in signs shipped/installed. The other aspect I have to consider is delivery schedule, I can't be late installing signs on a new building because signs are necessary to acquire a permit to occupy.

The advantage of jobs that take months to complete is that you have an opportunity to continually improve your techniques, jigs, fixtures and processes. Seconds saved per sign can translate into major labor savings so If it takes me a whole day to build a custom machining jig or a couple hours to design and cut a new engraving template the payback is generally worth the time invested.

[Rodne Gold]

Production deadlines on large jobs are often the issue , most folk take on vast qty jobs and have no conception re timing of the job till they running it and then they discover theoir production can't cope. Either you need a very fast machine/s or do as we do , just buy more of the slower ones. (which take more operators - the downside.. however redundancy is the upside)

[Mike Null]

I strongly agree with those who say pricing by the minute is a bad idea. First, understand the market; if you don't understand it do some research. Second, get all the market will bear.

I have jobs which are absurdly profitable and others which are marginal. I've just made the decision not to accept what I call retail engraving jobs as they tend to be low margin, time consuming and low dollar. (my definition of retail engraving is when somebody calls and says "I need a name and date engraved on this whatchamacallit. Can you do it today".) They are individuals rather than commercial or institutional entities and there is little likelihood of repeat business.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I think people should consider table size as as important as speed.

If you're a small shop, you know you're pulled in a thousand directions at once sometimes. We might have 500 plastic plates to engrave. Theoretically it takes time X. Reality, it's much higher than time X because a customer might walk in or the phone might right or we might get caught up on another project. Well the machine is just sitting there doing nothing when that happens. Even if I can run those 500 plates 2x as fast in the engraving time, if I have to change the material out 20 times vs 4, that's a big difference if swap out times are inconsistent. It really makes a difference when you don't have to do any material changes vs 5 or 6. Even Scott has admitted, it's a real task making sure his machine keeps running. I also think there is value in being able to work on something without being interrupted. Sometimes it's nice having a job that is just running for long periods of time. You can actually focus on other tasks without being constantly interrupted with changing jobs in and out of the machine. It takes time and energy to constantly have to refocus in on a job after being interrupted.

Just throwing out another thought. These do sound like very good machines that are very useful. They've peaked my interest.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

We also engraved a few window inserts and one Maximum Occupancy sign. These engraved so quick we didn't even feel it necessary to note the time. The quality of engraving was superior to any other machine I have used.


Is the quality noticeably different only to you because you know what to look for, or do you think people walking through the building halls would notice the difference in signs?

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

I seriously doubt the average person would ever notice the difference in quality on a door sign, nobody looks at them up close. There are times that we all work diligently to achieve the absolute best engraving we can from our machines, these are the times when it is nice to know that it won't be difficult to please even our most demanding customers.

The most important aspect of owning a machine made to very high standards is high performance and reliability. The majority of us only own one laser engraver, if it stops working it is a serious problem when you are on a tight schedule. I seriously considered the comments here from those who have owned Trotec Lasers for a long time, every owner has been quick to share how reliable their machines have been.

Over the next five years there are some very large commercial buildings scheduled to be built right in my back yard . I want the sign work in a big way but I have to know that my machines are up to the task of performing reliably, if I drop just one job I'm out of business. I have enough hours on my CAMaster CNC router to be comfortable relying on it to get the job done. I already have a real good feeling about the Trotec machines based on real world data reported here from several people.

The weak link these days in my shop is a 60 year old sign maker, the good news is that I have a backup :)
I'm ready to sign some contracts...................
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[Mike Null]

Keith, that's a good point. The weak link in my shop is the 75 year old owner. I've recently hired a much younger back up to work part time as well. But your points on the reliability hit home with me and that's why I'll keep buying Trotec.

[Keith Outten]

I had the opportunity to engrave a 14" by 9" Corian dedication plaque yesterday. This one took 1 hour and 45 minutes, it had a frame around the plaque very close to the edge all the way around. This one would have been near 3 hours if I used the same settings on the 60 watt Xenetech, I ran thirty plaques similar to this one just a few months ago.

I don't even want to think about the time it would take to engrave the same plaque on my old 35 watt Epilog Legend 24.

Anyone who is thinking about ADA work on large commercial buildings should know that generally speaking you have 18 to 24 months to fabricate all of the signs. This gives you some latitude to adjust your fabrication schedule to suit your shop capability. It also allows you to work in smaller jobs along the way, you just have to plan your work carefully. The problem we have at CNU is that we have multiple contractors working on buildings all over the University so we don't have the luxury of adjusting our schedule to fit our capacity. Purchasing the new Trotec was about adjusting our capacity to fit the schedule.

We had to place the Trotec in our workshop just a few feet away from our ShopBot CNC router. I discussed this with Don Mayhew and he told me that he has many customers who also have their laser engravers in their workshops. As workshops are generally considered dirty space we will have to work a little harder to keep the new machine as clean as possible paying particular attention to the fans. I prefered an alternate placement for the Trotec but we don't have any other place the machine will fit. The good news is that we won't have to carry door sign plaques all the way to the other side of the office to engrave them, we can roll them on a cart right in front of the Trotec.

We are pretty diligent about keeping our shop clean and we have very little dust in the air because we use a chip box. the last couple of days I have been watching the glass on top of the Trotec to see if any dust was accumulating, there has been very little.
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[Scott Shepherd]

Keith, you mention that your sign had a frame close to the edge all the way around. You do know that it will raster from top to bottom, right? I mean instead of your machine rastering from left to right, it will raster from top to bottom (it will raster across the Y-Axis instead of the X-Axis). So if you break the frame into vertical and horizontal pieces, send it over as two jobs, you can raster a frame around a 14" x 9" in about 2 minutes.

If you didn't know that, or you need some help, email me the file and I'll take a look at it and show you what I mean. My guess is you could do that job in a couple of minutes rather than a couple of hours.

[Rodne Gold]

My workshop looks like a bomb hit it .. but anyway , one of our members here makes a wonderful product for dirty workshops ,makes em on his laser- I hope I'm allowed to mention his stuff cos its a truly useful product and can save a lot of grief.
His Name is Vincent De Klerk and his website is http://www.demcifilter.com/

[Tony Lenkic]

So if you break the frame into vertical and horizontal pieces, send it over as two jobs, you can raster a frame around a 14" x 9" in about 2 minutes.

Good suggestion Scott. On the other note Keith has a shop bot router. With the router he can engrave border in less than a minute. I often utilize both rotary and laser on same jobs.

[Paul Phillips]

Anyone who is thinking about ADA work on large commercial buildings should know that generally speaking you have 18 to 24 months to fabricate all of the signs.

Wow Kieth, I guess the large commercial customers you get to deal with are different from the ones in California, my experience is they usually wait until a month, maybe two if your lucky, but sometimes even weeks before they open until they realize they are going to need signs, which usually leaves us scrambling to meet the deadline. We are constantly amazed at how much of an afterthought signs can be to a large building project and often find ourselves saying "you want it when?" Fortunately for us we have built a good reputation on a quick turn-around.

[Keith Outten]

Tony, I had the ShopBot busy machining door sign windows and months ago I made a pile of 14 by 9 plaques from scraps left over from another job. I decided to engrave the whole job so I could do something else and I really wanted to compare the total time against the previous batch.

Paul, you must have a lot of people on your staff in order to make signs for a large building in two months. I think I could do it if I didn't eat or sleep :) I often have to wait a couple weeks just to get all of my material in house to get started.
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[Keith Outten]

Keith, you mention that your sign had a frame close to the edge all the way around. You do know that it will raster from top to bottom, right? I mean instead of your machine rastering from left to right, it will raster from top to bottom (it will raster across the Y-Axis instead of the X-Axis). So if you break the frame into vertical and horizontal pieces, send it over as two jobs, you can raster a frame around a 14" x 9" in about 2 minutes.

If you didn't know that, or you need some help, email me the file and I'll take a look at it and show you what I mean. My guess is you could do that job in a couple of minutes rather than a couple of hours.

Steve,

I didn't know that the Trotec would raster from top to bottom along the Y axis, thanks for that tip.
Breaking the file into two parts is a good idea, I will give it a test run tomorrow.