My possible Lee Valley order for hand tools - anything missing to start with?

[Mike Kelsey]

I put this list together over a month or two of study. Settled on LV because of product quality /price/fabulous customer service & LN because ..... its LN. (I have their #8 Jointer). I have my water stone sharpening set up and my newly discovered "Disston" panel saws. I already have the Woodriver jack, #4 & low angle block

As I said in my most recent post I have the LN 16" Tenon Saw coming & their panel gauge


My possible Lee Valley order:

Japanese Plywood Saw

Set of 3 Tools, 8" marking calipers

Veritas Standard Dovetail Saw, 14 tpi

Pair of Veritas® Carcass Saws

1" Sorby Mortise Chisel

Striking Knife

Narex Mortise Chisels, set of 6
(1/8" - 1/2")

Veritas® Small Plow Plane

Veritas Router Plane and Fence w/
Set of 4 Imperial Blades

Coping Saw & Blade &
Pkg. of 12 Blades - 15 tpi

Veritas 1:6 & 1:8 Dovetail Markers, pr.

Veritas Left Skew Rabbet Plane

6" Beech Mallet

[Jason Chestnut]

What are you planning to build first? The thing that strikes me is the chisel selection. You probably don't need all those mortise chisels in most cases, I'd say. But some bench chisels or some such would be more useful. I like the advice of picking a project and buying any tools that you need for it, but don't have yet.

[Bill Houghton]

It would help to know what you already have and what you see yourself working on. I concur that you're ordering too many mortise chisels and too few bench chisels. In particular, it's hard to imagine needing a 1" mortise chisel unless you're planning to do timber framing. There's also no square - hard to work without a square - nor bench rule.

Tell us what you've got, then; and we can offer more useful advice.

[Rick Fisher]

Gotta assume you have some paring chisels and a few bench chisels.. Also assume you already have a low angle block and a smoother..

Much of it depends on what your building.. I seem to do a lot of mortise and tenon and enjoy having a shoulder plane.. Others have said they don't use one much ..

I use a Veritas marking gauge and a check edge marking knife often.. pretty handy tools..

[Mike Kelsey]

Oops I forgot to mention I do have a set of Woodriver bench chisels and the LN Shoulder 3/4" plane ( I like it a lot). As to building things, this winter, I want to begin to learn to use the tools. Probably start out building Jim Toplin's The New Traditional Woodworker, essential wooden layout tools and accessories, building a shop cabinet, practicing dovetails & more. I wasn't sure about the size & number of mortise chisels - I though the 1" would be handy for when I start on my "real" work bench. Opinions on specific mortise chisels instead of the set would be great. I think the tools will lead me into projects. I don't know how much of the kitchen cabinet I'll do by hand, perhaps the pantry my wife wants. I do want to get into furniture building. I've always been fascinated by the handcraft

Maybe some are wondering why buy all this at once? Well, until I retire, living on a 60 acre homestead, I never know what the weekend time frame is going to be like. Many times I'll start something one day (or weekend) & not get back to it for weeks or months because of other demands, triage as my wife calls our lifestyle, living in the woods. So it's better for me to have the tools at hand.


thanks for all the advice as usual

[Bruce Haugen]

If you're going to do typical mortising, you'd probably never need anything other than 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". I have the full set of Narex mortisers, got swept up in the buying frenzy that hit last winter, and now they're sitting on my bench staring at me, wondering why I don't use them. I've been doing hand stuff for 30 years and have yet to make a mortise larger than 1/2". But that's me. If you're going to build a bench by hand, then the 1" would be useful. OTOH, so is a tailed router with a solid carbide, up-cut spiral bit.

How do you plan on handling rough lumber? How are you planning on dimensioning your stock? Do you have a scrub plane, or at least a heavily radiused iron for your jack so you can use it as a scrub?

You'll also need a couple of squares. And something to make holes.

A whole kitchen by hand? If you have a table saw, consider not giving it up until after the kitchen is completed, unless your wife is a whole lot more understanding than mine.:D

[David Keller NC]

I put this list together over a month or two of study. Settled on LV because of product quality /price/fabulous customer service & LN because ..... its LN. (I have their #8 Jointer). I have my water stone sharpening set up and my newly discovered "Disston" panel saws. I already have the Woodriver jack, #4 & low angle block


If you want a "complete", but relatively sparse (read: easier on the wallet to purchase at once), buy and read "The Anarchist's Toolchest" along with the companion DVD from Chris Schwarz. In it, he lays out a tool list that is capable of building 99% of what most cabinetmakers would be interested in, and importantly, also explains why he selected what he did. This will be the best $37 + $12(for the DVD) you ever spent, and will save you many, many times that amount in extraneous purchases as you build your tools set and skills.

You can get it here:

http://www.lostartpress.com/

Not as exciting as placing a tool order, but I guarantee reading it will (drastically) change what you fill your order form out for.

[fred mcclure]

i would avoid the 1" mortise chisel and go with just a 1/4" mortise chisel. I dont know why you would be chopping out 1" mortises unless you are timber framing or something. i would just get a small set of dividers instead of the set of 3 tools. get that later if you need it

[Harlan Barnhart]

Any mortise larger than about 3/8" I bore out and pare with a bench chisel so I don't see much use for a massive mortise chisel in a starter set.

[paul cottingham]

+1 to "The Anarchist's Toolchest." His list of tools is very handy, and I would be surprised if using it as a guideline would leave you wanting. I only have a 1/4" mortise chisel. and that has been more than sufficient as well. I would consider a plow plane as well. I haven't found one I can use, and it limits me terribly. (hate routers!)

[Mike Kelsey]

The replys have been great so, I'm afraid I didn't make myself very clear in my hast to post. I should have provided this link which provides more background: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?177323-Lucky-Ignorant-me-maybe-the-journey-to-hand-tools (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?177323-Lucky-Ignorant-me-maybe-the-journey-to-hand-tools) As I mention in that link The Anarchist Tool Chest helped my focus.

As to the mortise chisels the 1" was for something like the workbench but perhaps I'm better off with 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" (Sorby?) - I still intend to use my power tools when it is the more "practical" approach, so I'll use the drill press to bore out most waste on larger mortises.
On my LV list I do have their router & plough planes. I forgot to mention I picked up a LN scrub plane (my only good CL find in 5 years).
I am getting the Veritas Left Skew Rabbet Plane - perhaps a luxury. If I have a quality "tool" which interests me I'll build things because of the tool - not particularly unusual I know.

"How do you plan on handling rough lumber? How are you planning on dimensioning your stock?" This remains an open question for me. I would like to say my scrub, jack, #8 jointer & bandsaw is all I'll use. As I said in the link above, it seems the width of the mechanical jointer is never wide enough, since my range of things I'd like to build have various widths. I already have planks up the 12" in width, including some great (I hope) "Roubo" slabs. My property has a lot of alder I would like to eventually use. Anyone over fifty whose always dimensioned wood by hand?http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon6.png

Power tools: I would love to build the kitchen cabinets by hand by realize it's probably not practical, especially with plywood. Any experiences of doing it by hand whole or partial, with or without ply, which didn't lead to divorce?


Af far as dividers would 4", 8", 12" straight divders make more sense?. I have square and straight edges though I plan to hand build some for experience.

[Jim Koepke]

Since I do not know what you have in mind for future projects it is only speculation beyond my first suggestion which is also likely off.

When my eyes saw coping saw, my mind sees fret saw. My suggestion would be to buy a combo pack of blades that LV offers to try the different styles. They will not work in a coping saw. My coping saw gets used very rarely. My fret saws get used often.

You mentioned living on a "60 acre homestead" which makes a lot of sense to me for having all the mortise chisels you can afford. In reality though you will likely use the 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" the most. I have a 1/2" and have had to cut bigger mortises with it. A larger mortise chisel would come in handy for me. Beside that, just because it is a mortise chisel doesn't mean it can not be used for cutting dados. After all, a dado is just a long shallow mortise.

For trimming a large tenon a wide chisel comes in handy for me. My 1-1/2" chisel is great for this.

You may want to look into a brace and a set of bits. These are something to look for used.

Do you have a lathe? That would explain the 8" caliper selection. There are more dividers and calipers in my shop than in the average shop. I used to do drafting and have acquired many more types over the years. They do come in handy even without a lathe. Even with all the ones already in my shop, there are a few that would be bought if they came up at a yard sale.

One of the other member's sig line says it well, "you can never have too many planes or chisels." My addition to that is if you do find yourself with too many of a tool, then put it in the sell box for when you need to raise some cash to buy another tool.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

Sorby mortise chisels? I have two, a 3/8" and 1/2", which is part of the reason I went with the Narex. The Sorby's, which are relatively new, just don't hold an edge like the Narex.

I mention dimensioning stock because it's just not that much fun by hand. I don't own a power jointer, but I do have a 12" lunchbox planer, and I don't want to think of taking a 12" board down by 14" by hand.

A bandsaw is definitely your friend, your Neanderbuddy.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,

What part of the country is home for you? I wonder because I also live in an area where alder is growing on my property.


Anyone over fifty whose always dimensioned wood by hand?

I have worked the local alder, maple and cherry by hand. I am over 60 by a year. Reminds me that some of my power tools for wood include a chainsaw and a log splitter.

My power tools are limited to a drill press, band saw and lathe. There are a few powered hand tools in my shop. The only one to see much use is the portable drill. My wife tends to use the ROS and the saber saw. She doesn't like hand planes because she thinks it takes a lot of upper body strength.


Power tools: I would love to build the kitchen cabinets by hand by realize it's probably not practical, especially with plywood. Any experiences of doing it by hand whole or partial, with or without ply, which didn't lead to divorce?

I have built some cabinets by hand for my wife. Nothing real fancy, but she likes them. They were for the laundry room so they didn't have to be of "show quality."

jtk

[Rob Fisher]

If you want a "complete", but relatively sparse (read: easier on the wallet to purchase at once), buy and read "The Anarchist's Toolchest" along with the companion DVD from Chris Schwarz. In it, he lays out a tool list that is capable of building 99% of what most cabinetmakers would be interested in, and importantly, also explains why he selected what he did. This will be the best $37 + $12(for the DVD)...You can get it here:http://www.lostartpress.com/This is the best advice! Once you know what you are building and how you want to go about building it you may want to add some tools, but you probably wouldn't need to. Plus, IMO, The ATC is a great read.

[Jim Neeley]

Mike,

Unless you wish, there is no reason to jump straight from 1" mortise chisel to tailed forstner, although there's certainly nothing wrong with doing so. There's also the option of a brace and bit for hogging.

[James Owen]

For mortise chisels, I'd suggest also taking a look at the Ray Iles mortise chisels at Tools For Working Wood. These are excellent chisels that hold an edge almost forever, and have all the features you'd ever want in a (traditional English oval bolster) mortise chisel. Sizes range from 1/8" to 1/2", by 1/16ths. Using these chisels makes chopping mortises FUN!

[David Keller NC]

The replys have been great so, I'm afraid I didn't make myself very clear in my hast to post. I should have provided this link which provides more background: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?177323-Lucky-Ignorant-me-maybe-the-journey-to-hand-tools (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?177323-Lucky-Ignorant-me-maybe-the-journey-to-hand-tools) As I mention in that link The Anarchist Tool Chest helped my focus.

Ahh - now I get it. But - take Chris' advice in the book. It's rare to find a mortise chisel over 1/2" "in the wild", and there's a reason. A mortise chisel depends on the force of the mallet to drive into the wood, but lever action to excavate the waste, and beyond a certain size, the force needed to drive the chisel edge into the wood so that there's actually something to excavate becomes herculean. That's why you see those funky looking two-handed frame drills and giant corner chisels in every antique shop - they were the standard tool for timber framing.

I would second the note about Ray Isles' mortise chisels, assuming you wish to buy new. There's a reason for the design - the oval handle and the slightly trapezoidal section of the blade are very important to hand-mortising. And - you should consider buying a pair of perhaps 1/4" and 3/8" to start with, as they will see 95% of the use in the shop. You can add to the set later if you wish. The steel in these chisels far exceeds anything else on the market in terms of shock resistance (important in a mortise chisel) and edge retention.

You should apply this maxim to all of your tool purchases, not just mortise chisels - it's far better to have many fewer tools that you paid a lot for than many more tools that you bought for very little. For example, I would advise someone just starting out to cough up the dough for just 2 Lie-Nielsen of Blue Spruce bench chisels than to pay less for a set of 7 from any of the other manufacturers. Sets of tools are attractive to collectors, but they're just space hogs for users.




Power tools: I would love to build the kitchen cabinets by hand by realize it's probably not practical, especially with plywood. Any experiences of doing it by hand whole or partial, with or without ply, which didn't lead to divorce?

You can absolutely do this if you choose - plywood will cut just as well as solid stock with hand saws. The problem you will run in to is edge quality. A table saw with the appropriate blade will make a almost perfect edge in plywood (or any other wood, for that matter) that may only need a little bit of dressing to be ready for glue. The hand tool method depends on planing following the use of a hand saw - the resultant edge is much better than one can acheive by any power tool method, but in plywood for kitchen cabinets this will take a lot of time and effort. Also, you can cross-cut on a table saw or a miter saw with just a pencil line without significant tear out. When using hand tools, you have a choice - you can either rough-cut the pieces over-length and allow the wood to splinter for perhaps 1/8" on either side of a pencil line, then shoot the edge and dress the surface to remove the tear-out, or you can knife the line on all 4 surfaces (face, 2 edges, and back) to prevent the tear-out and hand-saw very close to the line. Again, that's going to take a lot of effort on the linear feet required for kitchen cabinets.

What would be a better, more effecient use of your time, in my opinion, is to build the face frames and drawers by hand, and use your power tools to rough out the stock and build the plywood boxes that hold the drawers and go behind the face frames. The hand tool approach to the doors and drawers will give you a better outcome than can be acheived with power tools, and the power tool method will give you speed where high fit 'n finish will be hidden in the final product.



Af far as dividers would 4", 8", 12" straight divders make more sense?. I have square and straight edges though I plan to hand build some for experience.

As has been noted, unless you have a lathe you will get almost no use out of the 12" dividers, and not much out of the 8" dividers. What you do need is a couple of pairs of 3" or 4" very high quality dividers. The french-made ones that Lee Valley sells, in my opinion, aren't good enough (I have several of them) - either buy antiques, or buy Starret. You will need these every time you set up for dovetails. You also need a very high quality, very small square. Some use a small combination square, I prefer a solid "engineer's" square. My personal favorite is WoodJoy Tools "Total Square" - I've just about worn the satin chrome finish off of mine from frequent handling. I use it for every job - whenever any tool touches wood. Here is their website:

http://www.woodjoytools.com/page9/page9.html

Don't buy a bigger one than 3", thinking that you'll put it to use for larger jobs - you really need a little one, for both dovetail marking, and also rough stock preparation (to gauge the squareness of edges to faces).

You will also require a high-precision measurement device (not a tape measure - it's not accurate enough). I use Starrett rules, but you can also use antique folding rules that Chris mentions in his book.

[Jim Koepke]

As has been noted, unless you have a lathe you will get almost no use out of the 12" dividers, and not much out of the 8" dividers. What you do need is a couple of pairs of 3" or 4" very high quality dividers. The french-made ones that Lee Valley sells, in my opinion, aren't good enough (I have several of them) - either buy antiques, or buy Starret. You will need these every time you set up for dovetails. You also need a very high quality, very small square. Some use a small combination square, I prefer a solid "engineer's" square. My personal favorite is WoodJoy Tools "Total Square" - I've just about worn the satin chrome finish off of mine from frequent handling. I use it for every job - whenever any tool touches wood. Here is their website:

http://www.woodjoytools.com/page9/page9.html

Don't buy a bigger one than 3", thinking that you'll put it to use for larger jobs - you really need a little one, for both dovetail marking, and also rough stock preparation (to gauge the squareness of edges to faces).

You will also require a high-precision measurement device (not a tape measure - it's not accurate enough). I use Starrett rules, but you can also use antique folding rules that Chris mentions in his book.

My thoughts on this are perplexing. Being of two minds I have to agree with what David says while at the same time not agreeing. Maybe more coffee will help.

My small square (2") is one of the most used squares in my shop. The next most used is a toss up between my 6" try square and a large framing square.

For small dividers for marking dovetail, I would look to ebay and find an old drafting set with small dividers and compasses. It is amazing at how little a good set can cost. It isn't difficult to repurpose an inking compass point into a knife edge for marking.

If you have experience with drawing by hand, you will likely know how to use the larger dividers and compasses for dividing a board into equal parts.

I kind of chuckle about a tape measure not being accurate enough. My experience with using a tape measure seems to reinforce that idea. Changing to using less accuracy and more feel has made things fit together better in my work. Story sticks and wood rules seem to work better for me than a tape measure.

A good accurate steel rule, calipers and such are not only handy, they are indispensable at times. One of my calipers only has increments of 1/32". It is an essential tool when working with dowels or fitting other things together. A caliper that reads in increments of 0.001" is handy, but not essential.

A combination square is also a good tool to have. Some of them are just about worthless. Some may be off square but can be fixed. Besides checking square, they can be put into use as a marking gauge or for stepping off equal spacing along an edge.

Hmmm, that sounds like the opening for a new thread on using and adjusting one of the essential shop tools.

jtk

[James Owen]

Another quick note: Coping saws -- it may be just me, but I have had horrible luck with commercial coping and fret saws. After trying about 8 different brands and models, I gave up on commercially made ones, and made my own bow-saw-style deep coping saw, and now have a coping saw that does not bend, loosen, or have any of the other usual defects frequently found in the commercial ones. It keeps the blade nice and taut and in-place, and uses standard 5 inch pinned coping saw blades.

All the wood work was by hand; Dremel tool for the metal work.


215448

[Archie England]

What do you have for sharpening blades? Files for saw blades? And most importantly, do you have a workbench already?

[Mike Kelsey]

To sharpen I use water stones, Veritas MKII jig. I have a slow Grizzly grinder & the Worksharp 3000 - but I've focused on learning to use the wterstones. My understanding about the Isles chisels, that they are A2 steel & I would have to go to diamond plates to sharpen them . Is this correct? I have yet to explore saw sharpening.

Ah, the work bench, the work bench. This last summer I started on a MDF & plywood top as a quicky. Got it glued together. Almost perfectly flat, but I never finished making legs for it. Too many distractions ( & I couldn't get excited about it as a woodworking bench). I'll finish it as a assembly table. Since I'm setting up a temporary non-electric work space in the unfinished kitchen, I just want something I can bolt together & use for the winter, so I went to the Darth Vader store & bought the HF 60" bench. It will do to practice on. The barn is just too cold and damp to work on building a bench in the winter. I'm thinking of perhaps building a Moxon vise to clamp to HF bench.

[Sam Takeuchi]

No, you don't have to use diamond to sharpen A2. You can use most commonly available stones and abrasive papers. It's simply takes little more attention and slightly more effort to sharpen, but not by much. Once you get to high speed steel, then a lot of commonly available sharpening medium become pretty ineffective or inefficient, but A2 isn't a HSS and you won't have trouble sharpening it with anything.

[James Owen]

To sharpen I use water stones, Veritas MKII jig. I have a slow Grizzly grinder & the Worksharp 3000 - but I've focused on learning to use the wterstones. My understanding about the Isles chisels, that they are A2 steel & I would have to go to diamond plates to sharpen them . Is this correct? .....

Actually, the Ray Iles Mortise Chisels are made from D-2. Water stones will work, but it will be (very) slow-going. I've found that the quickest and most efficient way to hand sharpen them is with diamonds, and to polish them with ceramics. The good news is that they hold an edge for a really long time, so you won't be sharpening them all that often (compared to chisels made from other steels). Being that they are chopping chisels, they don't require a surgically sharp edge -- such as you might want to put on a paring or carving chisel -- to use them. And, since the crystalline structure of D-2 is somewhat larger than that of O-1, W-1, and even A-2, you're not going to be able to get them quite as sharp as chisels made from one of those steels. Nonetheless, they can still be sharpened sufficiently to inflict a very respectable gash in your thumb, if you're not careful with the business end of them. DAMHIKT.....

D-2 is a high-carbon (ca 1.5%), high-chromium (typically 11% to 13%), air-hardening steel; it also contains several other alloying elements. Due to the high chromium content, it has excellent wear resistance properties and moderate corrosion resistance. Shock-resistance/toughness is somewhat less than for other high-chromium steels, and is extremely dependent on tempering temperature and technique. Overall, D-2 is very sensitive to forging, annealing, and tempering techniques and temperatures, and a large proportion of items made from D-2 are double-tempered, to give them the best-possible combination of hardness, toughness, and wear-resistance. (I'm not a metallurgist, so if I missed something significant or got anything wrong here, please feel free to correct any errors I may have made.)

[Archie England]

To sharpen I use water stones, Veritas MKII jig.

Excellent! I've run the various systems only to end up keeping the Tormek 2000 and Sigma Power waterstones. While I enjoy touting the value of Stu Tierney's Sigma power ceramics, I've used enough others to say conclusively this, "get the better waterstones." That's Shaptons, Naniwa Chosera, Bester, Gesshins, or Arashiyamas!!!!! These do really work better (and way faster) than the older generation King and Norton stones.

I have a slow Grizzly grinder & the Worksharp 3000 - but I've focused on learning to use the wterstones.

I bought the Tormek and a Delta slow speed grinder early on. Boy am I glad I did. The Tormek defined "sharpness" but especially repeatable results in sharpness. The day I bought waterstones was when I discovered "sharper than the Tormek." It took me little time to transition from the VMII jig to free hand sharpening. As a hobby woodworker, I'm glad for the options; but I'm even more excited about paring end-grain like butter.


My understanding about the Isles chisels, that they are A2 steel & I would have to go to diamond plates to sharpen them . Is this correct? I have yet to explore saw sharpening.

Don't know the answer to this one.

Ah, the work bench, the work bench. This last summer I started on a MDF & plywood top as a quicky. Got it glued together. Almost perfectly flat, but I never finished making legs for it. Too many distractions ( & I couldn't get excited about it as a woodworking bench). I'll finish it as a assembly table. Since I'm setting up a temporary non-electric work space in the unfinished kitchen, I just want something I can bolt together & use for the winter, so I went to the Darth Vader store & bought the HF 60" bench. It will do to practice on. The barn is just too cold and damp to work on building a bench in the winter. I'm thinking of perhaps building a Moxon vise to clamp to HF bench.




Sorta wish I had done that. I've made three benches over the last six years, the first two in the first six months of trial and error--mostly error. My third still stands and works great but it needs numerous upgrades. I built the top too thin and too wide. Oh, and the wood choices I made back then sucked: I've got plow rows for board cupped on the top. To flatten the top just makes it way too much more thin. The face vise is not that well situated. However, I'm having a blast doing something!!!!! Even doing things wrong is a learning process. BTW, I've concluded that I'm not too bright or skilled at woodworking. So what! It's the joy of not cutting myself and watching small steps of improvement that keep me going. Oh, it also keeps me more focused on the handtools rather than powered ones :).

[David Keller NC]

My thoughts on this are perplexing. Being of two minds I have to agree with what David says while at the same time not agreeing. Maybe more coffee will help.

My small square (2") is one of the most used squares in my shop. The next most used is a toss up between my 6" try square and a large framing square.


I probably should've been more careful about how I worded that - it's not that a square bigger than 3" isn't useful and needed, it's that one needs at least 2 - a small one in the 2"-3" range, and larger ones for checking squareness of carcasses, etc. What I've seen newbies do is to buy a mid-size square as a "compromise" between a small 2"-3" square and a 10" square and attempt to use that compromise for all jobs.

The problem with that isn't just convenience of the small-size square. One tends to go about correcting out-of-square conditions that are apparent with a 6"-8" square but are invisible with a 2" square, which is generally not necessary, and not correcting out-square issues that are apparent with a 10" - 12" square but not with a 6" square that actually need correcting.

Ditto for dividers - it isn't that an 8" divider is a useless tool, it's just that it's no substitute for a 2"-3" divider for laying out dovetails, tenons and the like.

[Jim Koepke]

I probably should've been more careful about how I worded that

Actually, I think you worded it well the first time. My perplexations were all my own. :cool:

I bought a small 2" engineering square. I took it to work where we rebuilt mechanical assemblies from ticket handling machines and by showing how useful it was convinced them to order one for everyone.

The small square is an essential tool for working wood and even checking blades and planes for square. It is also useful in many other endeavors outside of woodworking.

I likely have as many "junker" squares as most folks have users and I am still looking for a few more users.

jtk