Compliments are great BUT!!!!!

[Dick Wilson]

I frequent several different turning forums, mainly to get inspiration for future pieces. You may not notice it but some of my work has been the result of that inspiration. It all looks very different from others pieces but the influence is there. I also post pictures in the hopes of getting honest critical feedback which I hope will advance my thinking and turning eye to produce better work.

I realize that many of you look at someones work and rather that say anything do not reply at ALL! Example. I posted a picture of a Box Elder hollow form first of December with the title "What Do You Think Of My Solution". To date 609 turners have viewed it and 17 turners responded with comments - mostly positive because I think you were trying to be kind;). I changed the top and renamed it "Desert Flower". I have receive comments like "I didn't like the first one but I like this one" or "I didn't like the first one so I didn't say anything". Therefore, in the future I am going to say something like "Critiques and comments welcome - if you don't like it TELL ME WHY!!!".

Hey, I am thick skinned. I can take it. Negative comments in the way of constructive criticism will help everyone become better turners. I am willing to be the punching bag:eek::eek::D

[terry mccammon]

Point taken, you are correct. Comments like "pretty" really don't do much for our development do they. Will try harder.

[Marty Eargle]

I learned log ago after being part of several artistic communities online that it is very important to try and be critical of people's work. Even if you are in love with a piece, some sort of constructive comment or critique can be an important factor in the development of that persons' work. Critiques are one of the main ways to spur innovation.

Many times, I will think a piece is visually near perfect...but I will still do my best to give the submitter a "Maybe if..." or a "Would also..." just to possibly spark a little creativity in the creator's mind.

[Wally Dickerman]

Dick, I couldn't agree more. Attaboy comments are the norm, and are of no value to the turner. In my case I sometimes click on a post where a critique was asked for and already there are nothing but 10 attaboys. Now I'm going to look like the grinch who stole Christmas if I say what I really think. In that case, I usually say nothing because I hate to give an attaboy when I really want to say something that in this case would would be the first negative comment

Not everybody is thick skinned as you say you are. I have gotten in trouble more than once for giving my honest opinion on a piece that the turner thought was his/her best piece ever. Often a turner will ask for a critique but what they really want to hear are the attaboys.

Sometimes it's difficult to give an educated opinion from just seeing a photo or two. There is a lot more to judging a piece than by just seeing an outline of the form. How it feels when handled, is it thin walled or is it heavy, how the finish appears under close examination, and so on. The only way we can help a turner is to explain why a certain comment was made and how the piece could be improved by changing a certain curve or the size of the foot, etc.

I may get jumped on for saying this, but one of my pet peeves is critiques from folks who don't really know what a good form or a good curve is. I hope that doesn't sound eletist but the person asking for the critique really wants to hear from experienced turners. Otherwise, just say that you like it if you do. In my own case, when I ask for an opinion, I hope that I hear from someone who's opinion I respect......okay fire away. I've been flamed before, and not too long ago.

[Scott Hackler]

Good point Dick. I also appreciate REAL critiques and those type of critiques have really helped me grow as an artist. I don't have a perfect "eye" for forms and so it has been pretty common place for me to post pictures of odd shaped forms that "break the rules". Some work, but 95% or more are horrible and I needed to be told so! My wife is always "thats nice" but if I get an "oh my", well that speaks for itself!

Even over on the "other" site. I pay attension to the number of comments/replies and take a mental note that little to no comments = this piece isn't up to snuff (at least over there). It's kinda stealth but effective in a small way. I much prefer direct comments and although I might disagree a bit, it is good to have a fresh set of eyes (expecially a turner) critiqueing my work.

Some people, like Wally said, might ask for a critique but aren't prepared to hear the honest truth and take it the wrong way.

A good suggestion might be to chane from "Comments and critiques welcome" to "Comments and constructive critiques WANTED".

[Robert McGowen]

You have a valid point, Dick. The only problem is that you will very rarely receive an honest critique here. There are various reasons, IMHO.

It could be the "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" problem. People will dance around saying anything negative. You can bet that when you read "that is a very unusual form," the poster usually means, "that form is unusual because it is so hideous."

People want to follow the crowd. If the first four posters say it is great for no particular reason, then it is hard for the fifth poster to give an honest negative critique, even if the first four posters have no idea what they are talking about.

As Wally mentioned, the talent here has an extreme range, from "I am thinking about getting a lathe" people all the way to professional turners.

And my favorite thread starts this way, "This is my best piece ever, I am so proud of it, and my wife/husband has already claimed it. What do you think?" You can't really post "You have no taste and I guess your wife/husband doesn't either."

People just want to be liked. Being negative will not make you popular with the poster, no matter how helpful you are trying to be.

I have learned a lot here and hopefully have given back some. Most of the stuff I post has already been sold so, like you, I really am trying to improve on my next piece when asking for a critique.
Just my rambling thoughts! YMMV

[John Beaver]

Dick,
I agree completely with your post. I too would like to see more constructive criticism. These forums do tend to favor compliments, and I think we could all be a little braver and make well thought out comments with out hurting too many feelings. After all most of us do put "comments and critiques" on our posts.

Malcolm Tibbetts has a wonderful way of complimenting a piece and critiquing it at the same time. He will always point out something positive, and then give his ideas for improvement. Who wouldn't want to hear those remarks, and not just from someone as respected as Malcolm.

[Jim Burr]

I know on WTA, there is very little "Atta boy!" and more of a "think about this and work on that" mentality. Sometimes the term "artist" can lead to an ego sensitive to bruising so the politically correct thing to do limit criticism and stroke the ego. Try that on IAP...you’ll get you’re booty kicked...those guys make pens, in many cases, for a living and they don't care if you like it not. Don't like the heat...stay out of the shop!

[Derek Gilmer]

Malcolm Tibbetts has a wonderful way of complimenting a piece and critiquing it at the same time. He will always point out something positive, and then give his ideas for improvement. Who wouldn't want to hear those remarks, and not just from someone as respected as Malcolm.

This is how I feel about the comments I've gotten from some. John K and Scott H jump to mind. I posted my turnings and got some encouragement but also got critique on how to make mistakes or lines better. It has been a good mix of atta boys and maybe tweak this and that. I think that by the nature of SMC you need to ask for feedback.

Wally to your point about wanting feed back from "good" turners. Doesn't sound elitist and I get what you mean. I don't know what your target for turning is. If it is for "high art" than I can see wanting info from others working at the same goal or on the same level you perceive yourself to be at. But if your goal was to make stuff that sold well to the masses feed back from everyone would be good. I might know the math behind why a curve looks good or bad or what the current fad in turning art is. But I know when I look at something if it is ugly to me or not. I'd almost be on the other side of the coin. I'm less interested in critic from someone who is a legend in the turning world but that thinks all forms need a dye job, super carving, inlay or something added to a piece. I'd prefer feedback from someone who likes turning that is basically clear coat only to highlight the curves and grain of a piece.

Back to the main point, I know of at least a few folks who don't really post here because there is little point to it in their eyes. We almost all have friends, wives, parents or kids that would look at our worst failure in turning and say it looks great to them. A community of folks like this should be here to encourage AND to improve us.

Maybe we could have a best turning of the week competition to fuel the comments. I kid, I kid!

[John Keeton]

This topic has arisen many times. Some of you may not be aware of the sticky on Critique that is here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56171-Critique-Documents-Sticky).

While I do agree with the comment, please understand that we have many folks that are just beginning in this endeavor. While it is important for them to receive honest critique, the reality is that some of them may not even understand the nuances of a full fledged critique.

Some folks may have never watched anyone turn, understand form, nor have any idea of proportion. They may have only logged on to the creek recently and have not benefited from the hundreds of hours that many of us have spent studying the turnings of others, or simply studying form.

For some, those elements may come slower, or with less understanding.

It is difficult to know the background of an individual that is posting a turning unless they have been around a while. And, nothing will stifle creativity like a raking critique.

There is a way to convey helpful information, and I agree we should do more of that in a gentle manner.

[Derek Gilmer]

This topic has arisen many times. Some of you may not be aware of the sticky on Critique that is here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56171-Critique-Documents-Sticky).

While I do agree with the comment, please understand that we have many folks that are just beginning in this endeavor. While it is important for them to receive honest critique, the reality is that some of them may not even understand the nuances of a full fledged critique.

Some folks may have never watched anyone turn, understand form, nor have any idea of proportion. They may have only logged on to the creek recently and have not benefited from the hundreds of hours that many of us have spent studying the turnings of others, or simply studying form.

For some, those elements may come slower, or with less understanding.

It is difficult to know the background of an individual that is posting a turning unless they have been around a while. And, nothing will stifle creativity like a raking critique.

There is a way to convey helpful information, and I agree we should do more of that in a gentle manner.

Did this get "un-stickied"? When I look at the turners forum I don't see it up there.

[John Keeton]

Derek, it is contained within the Master Sticky.

[Sean Hughto]

I feel like I'm my own harshest critic, and I'm guessing many woodworkers are. So most of the time I know what's lacking or where something falls short.

The other thing is that critiques that stem from different tastes are not all that helpful. If someone asks you what you think of a jazz number, and you hate jazz, what are you really gonna have to say that's useful or constructive. You may as well leave it to the jazz afficionados to discuss.

That said we all appreciate good feedback from fellow afficionados, so to speak. I like to turn bowls, so if Mike Mahoney or Robin Wood or any number of you who are super experienced bowls turners have something to tell me about an effort, I love to hear it!

I also agree strongly with Wally that it's had to tell from photos. My best bowls as far as feel, curve, weight, etc., don't look all that much different in photos from ones that are not quite so good in some respect. In person, the differences would be obvious, but on the computer, not at all.

[Karl Card]

Wow I never really thought of this being a problem, to me anyway. I pretty much say what is on my mind, nicely and hopefully in a constructive manner.

[John Pratt]

+1 John K's comment. IMHO many of the views without posting may be from people like me (a mainly flatwork guy), who are just not up to the same caliber as many of you. I understand the nuances of the form, but I tend to have a "look don't touch" philosophy toward commenting because your skill level is beyond anything I can personnaly make at this time.

[Alan Zenreich]

Dick,

When I post images of my work, I don't find "attaboy" posts particularly useful, even though the people are well meaning.

For me, it is about sharing what I (or Lauren) are working on, and relish the opportunity to talk about the intent, decisions, procedures and tools that went into the creation of the item.

As you have seen/heard first hand, it doesn't take much to get me talking, and I am pretty opinionated.

Compliments are a quick way to bring my conversations to a pause, if not a halt.

[Derek Gilmer]

Dick,

When I post images of my work, I don't find "attaboy" posts particularly useful, even though the people are well meaning.

For me, it is about sharing what I (or Lauren) are working on, and relish the opportunity to talk about the intent, decisions, procedures and tools that went into the creation of the item.

As you have seen/heard first hand, it doesn't take much to get me talking, and I am pretty opinionated.

Compliments are a quick way to bring my conversations to a pause, if not a halt.

I think you are great at expressing your opinion!

;)

[Alan Zenreich]

I was wondering who would be the first . < vbg >

[Mike Cruz]

In that case, here you go. It was a piece of garbage. Garbage, btw, that I would be so lucky to ever be able to create...:o

Dick, the old adage of "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all." doesn't really apply to C&C threads. Many of us (me included) often don't know any different to be able to even give constructive (or non-constructive) criticism when something is beyond our ability or experience. I saw your thread. Visited it a number of times. Once or twice to see your solution, and a bunch of times to read what those who are in the know had to say.

Believe me, I feel your pain. I've posted threads that I wanted/needed answers/guidance to/on. (How do you like all those slashes, huh?) The number of thread hits WAY outnumbered the responses. It kinda bothered me at first that all those people didn't have anything to say, but later realized how many times I look at a thread and don't respond because, well, I sometimes...can't.

I welcome and encourage those who are in the know on whatever topic to not hold back and be honest about their opinion when it is asked for. Anyone that says "what do you think?" ought to be prepared for some lashings...constuctive ones, of course, but honesty for sure. I've been guilty of leaving the "That's awfully purdy" post. But often that's all I can add. Other may be able to tell or opine about the size of the opening of a HF, or how the opening flared or caved and shouldn't have. But to me, it was "purdy". Or maybe it wasn't, but without having to back it up, saying it doesn't look right just isn't...constructive...or at least it doesn't feel like it from this end of the keyboard.

Here's to those who can...do. I'm all for it...

[Dwight McNutt]

Dick you have a good point. But I like many view every thread posted to try and gather some useful information from it, no matter how small. I for one don't comment for a simple reason( I only learned how to turn on my lathe last week). I wouldn't know if it was correct or not, but I do know if it looks good. Give me 5 or 6 years and maybe i'll be able to tell you if it is correct.

Dwight

[Jack Mincey]

I go to several sites and strongly feel this that this site is the busiest and IMHO simply the best one on the net for turners of any skill range. As far as commenting on all the pic's posted good or bad, I work full time, sometimes two jobs and have a wife and 9 year old son. There isn't even close to enough time in my world to make a comment good or bad to every pic posted here, so I only post a comment when I have the time or the turned object blows me away. I also try and post here when I feel that I have some bit of knowledge that may help someone. Members doing their best to help each other here in place of arguing with each other makes it a great place to visit and I hope that it stays they way. As far as critiques go I have always got a couple very helpful suggestion's on this site, when I ask for them on pieces I've posted here.
Jack

[Dale Miner]

......okay fire away. I've been flamed before, and not too long ago.

Ready on the right, ready on the left, ready on the firing line.......

Wally,

You are right. This is a similar thought that comes up from time to time. On another website, someone said we should offer more comments and critiques. Okay, so I did. I got jumped on by a different someone that claimed that in order to be qualified to judge another persons work, it was necessary to be educated in all forms of art, not just woodturning. He went on to tell of his qualifications, implying that those with lesser educations should remain quiet.

In the '70s, I was a self taught potter. Built my own kick wheel, kilns, recipes for clay and glazes, etc. Read the libraray dry on books of form as well as technical to pottery and clay. I can't tell the master that made a painting by the brushstrokes, and probably wouldn't recognize the name of the master anyway. But, even without twelve years studying every discipline of art, I can tell when a piece has a flaw in the form that could be corrected with only a slight change. However, often times a person has posted items in the past, been given comments about the flaw, and continues to make items with the same flaw. No sense in beating a dead horse eh? Or as others have said, if a person posts a piece and from his comments indicates he is proud of the piece, whittling it to bits in a public forum is not proper.

I have to agree with you about recieving critique from someone whose opinion I respect. Often, their opinion is not what the ears are looking for, but is what the heart already knows. Hearing it or seeing it in print makes the consious mind accept.

When it comes to giving critique, it is tough to give a critique that will not be taken the wrong way. Al Stirt did a demo for our club, and a critique of pieces for those that wanted one. Before Al would give the critique, he would ask the turner a few questions about their experience, what they typically turn, etc. Al was trying to get to know where the person was in their progress as well as a glimpse into thier personality in order to give critique that would help, not hinder. It is not alway easy to know that about the person that posts an item on the net. It seems to me that it is better to do no harm than offer suggestions that may be taken the wrong way.

Cease firing.

[David E Keller]

Not to pile on, but I agree with much of what's been said. I gain a lot from critical evaluations of my work, and I appreciate that people take the time to suggest things like adding a little flare to an opening or tucking a little near the base of a form. In fact, many of the features that I try to incorporate into my turnings were picked up from comments made by other turners. I've stolen ideas from many a turner by looking at their pieces, but I've gained just as much from the little suggestions and thought provoking comments made about my turnings and the works of others.

I suppose I differ with Wally a bit on the credentials of the person providing comments... I learn from everybody, so I'm happy to read what anybody may want to share. There are certainly turners with styles of work that I find more appealing, and I suppose I tend to lend a little extra weight to their comments. There are turners whose work I don't find appealing, but I still enjoy reading their impressions of my turnings. While a turner's style may not be my cup of tea, they may have a wealth of knowledge on technical aspects of turning or finishing that I can incorporate into my work.

I've found one way to elicit comments, criticism, and suggestions is to be specific about a particular aspect of the piece or the process being posted. I also find it useful to post a self critique or admit to a particularly challenging part of a project... I think it helps any potential critic to focus on a few things that are most important to the poster.

[Doug Herzberg]

Even over on the "other" site. I pay attension to the number of comments/replies and take a mental note that little to no comments = this piece isn't up to snuff (at least over there). It's kinda stealth but effective in a small way. I much prefer direct comments and although I might disagree a bit, it is good to have a fresh set of eyes (expecially a turner) critiqueing my work.


I'm one of those who looks, but rarely says anything. I'm new and I look for the pleasure of seeing the many beautiful pieces I've seen here, and to learn. You can't infer a negative opinion from every view without a comment. Maybe in a year or two, I'll think I have something worthwhile to say.

I agree that direct comments and suggestions are more helpful than attaboys. I suppose the whole reason for posting is to get opinions from others, so in that sense a nonspecific compliment or word of encouragement is better than nothing. I just think there are a lot of people looking who may not feel like they have anything to add.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The reason for sticky....and why it's the policy here is you want a "CRITIQUE" ask for it is because at one time there were people here who would launch an attack on somebody's project. They couldn't spell the word "tactful".

While guiding someone by giving a critique is helpful, I would suggest to beginning turners critiquing without being tactful does more harm than good.

That's why this sticky was developed: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56171-Critique-Documents-Sticky

I would also suggest in the early stages of development of a turner a few attaboys encourages them to want to strive to do more turning. As we get a little more experienced and comfortable with our turning skills, getting accolades from our peers becomes less important.

If you want a critique.....simply ask for it.