SMC Growth Rate - Changes Coming Soon [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Keith Outten

03-08-2005, 10:09 AM

We have known for a long time that we would be facing a challenge to find support for SMC as the number of members increased and our network bandwidth became strained. Honestly we felt that when we built the new server it would be at least another year before we would need to consider adding bandwidth or find financial support necessary. Our new server is capable of handling more traffic than we have capacity at the present time.

During peak times we are now saturating our Internet Connection, we have about 50% of our bandwidth available for SawMill Creek without creating a problem however SMC is using 85% during the peak hours. Our connection to the Internet is a commercial fiber optic T-1 line and based on our current load we will need another full T-1 line just for SawMill Creek. Our cost will be about $1000.00 per month for the bandwidth and a new circuit which we must sign a five year contract to have installed. Obviously this is a serious commitment and we must attract sponsors who are willing to join us for the long haul and see the value of communicating with our community. We currently have an OC3 De-mark installed in our back office at HRO so the infrastructure is in place for us to grow beyond our wildest dreams, if we could afford it that is :)

We do have lots of options;

We could discontinue hosting all photographs and graphics, this would include the member avatars. This would drop our bandwidth considerably but it would not be our first choice. Our members would have to host their own pictures on their personal web sites and some do not have the capability to host pictures or their providers have serious limits on their bandwidth consumption.

We could install limits on the number of connections that the SMC server would allow concurrently. The result would be much like getting a busy signal when our server limit was reached.

We could place hardware limits on the bandwidth allocated to the SMC server, this would slow down the response time which would be painfully slow during peak times.

Our favorite choice is to increase our network capability and to continue growing, and to hopefully increase our services as well. This will require that we find financial support since our current Sponsor is not able to continue supporting us alone. This option also has another serious benefit in that we will be able to increase our exposure to the companies that we purchase equipment and supplies from and they in turn will receive positive feedback from serious woodworkers.

I have taken the lead and offered to sponsor the first Commercial Forum here at the Creek. My company will pay a monthly fee and I will donate a percentage of all sales that are generated from the Northwind Associates Forum. I would be very happy if I could provide the funding necessary to supplement HRO's contribution but it is unlikely so we will need to find other companies who are willing to join us.

The cost of a Commercial Forum will be very modest and be determined based on the amount of participation by the companies who sponsor each Forum. Aaron Koehl is responsible for coordination of Sponsors Forums and should be contacted for specific details. Aaron has announced our intention to offer Commercial Forums in another thread recently.

If this option is to be successful we will need your help contacting companies who would be interested in joining us and would benefit from communicating with our Woodworking Community.

Your comments are welcome concerning this proposal and your help would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks,

Frank Pellow

03-08-2005, 10:33 AM

Keith, I certainly prefer your favourite option. Saw Mill Creek would not be Saw Mill Creek if we were to go with any of the other options.

Jeff Sudmeier

03-08-2005, 10:41 AM

I would agree that the option proposed would be the best for Saw Mill Creek.

However, I think most members would agree that I would rather have SMC w/o pictures, than not at all. Even if SMC was to only host avatars, that would be a great compromise. There are a lot of other sites out there that will host pictures, for viewing on Saw Mill Creek. Whenever I post a picture on SMC, I upload it to a third party website, not SMC.

Keith Outten

03-08-2005, 10:50 AM

I agree Frank,

Growth is the most attractive option. Many of our Members would like us to offer a Shop Tours section which we would really like to do however the cost of supporting a picture intensive and bandwidth gobbling Shop Tours area is impossible without funding. Sadly, in our country nothing is free, there is always a price to be paid so we must find the resources to fund our current load and any expansion of SawMill Creek.

Our new members might not know that SawMill Creek is a non-profit community and all of our Staff and Moderators volunteer their time. It's all about woodworking, we are not interested in financial gain...but we have to pay the bills.

We have already decided to try the Commercial Forums route, if it is successful then good for us, if not then we will have to select another option.

Jeff,

The avatars are actually a huge load, consider how many people are downloading pages and how many avatars are on each page. The good news is that most people do cashe the common graphics here at SMC which includes the avatars. Once the avatars are downloaded into a browsers cashe it does cut down on the load. The problem with using other picture hosting servers is our archives will be less valuable when all the pictures are no longer hosted they won't be available to those who are searching for information in the future.

Jeff Sudmeier

03-08-2005, 11:06 AM

Keith, ahh yes, I forgot about the archives! That would be a problem, when you can't control the third party site. That is why you all do the web hosting and not I! :)

Jim Becker

03-08-2005, 11:08 AM

Keith, I sincerly hope that we can make the Commercial Forums work well as that option will certainly help maintain much of what makes SMC special over all other forum sites.

My second choice would be for hosting of graphics to be the responsiblity of the member, with the understanding that option would in some respects "break" the ability for folks to search the site at a future date and be assured of seeing any pictures or graphics that are key to a conversation...people don't tend to keep things online forever and site go away for a variety of reasons. But this option, if necessary, would seriously reduce the traffic load, at least for the SMC server and its hosting connections...while still permitting the satisfaction of the "'picture police". ;) Seriously, the photos are very important to the community and will need to remain part of the structure in some way for things to continue to grow and thrive. Pictures bridge time and space for all of us.

Rob Russell

03-08-2005, 11:11 AM

Keith,

While noone wants to lose anything, if the Commercial Forum doesn't pay enough, it would make sense to me to: 1) drop the avatars and 2) limit picture sizes. That way SMC would continue largely as is, with only minor 'degradation' in the service offered.

We'd all like SMC to continue for free and without changes. That may not be realistic.

Rob

Dennis Peacock

03-08-2005, 11:22 AM

This may have been talked about before....but what about member contributions to help "kickstart" the funding needed? Via PayPal????

Some will want to help in funding while others will not. It's all a personal choice. But why can't it at least be offered? :confused:

Frank Pellow

03-08-2005, 11:41 AM

Karl Laustrup

03-08-2005, 11:46 AM

I like the idea of the Commercial Forum. I hope it will provide the resources needed to continue SMC as it is. As much as I enjoy the avatar's I think I'd prefer that they be the first to be altered, IF NECESSARY.

I feel the pictures of projects etc. are very important for all of the members to be able to search and study for their own use.

That's my $1.398 worth. The above being said, I'm for whatever keeps SMC up and running. :) :D

Darren Ford

03-08-2005, 12:01 PM

Glenn Clabo

03-08-2005, 12:02 PM

Keith...
Good plan and I sure hope it works...but I also agree with Dennis. Why not set up a donation tab and let individuals decide what/if/when they'd like to give something?

This place is worth more than any mag subscription that I've ever had. If only 10% of us felt that way you'd get enough to make things more comfortable.

Norman Hitt

03-08-2005, 12:09 PM

Keith, I really like the Commercial forum Idea for several reasons, but if that doesn't completely solve the problem, I agree with Rob Russell and Karl Laustrup about keeping the pics with size limits, and dropping the Avatars. It's nice to see who's talking, ( though I don't have Pic capabilities to do one myself), but not nearly as useful or necessary as the other pics. Pics of other members designs and projects give ideas and inspiration to others, and the pics are really Necessary in many cases, where a question is asked and the problem is hard to describe so others can help with answers.

Just my dollar-two ninety eight, and keep up the good work, as we're all very appreciative.

Norm

Norman Hitt

03-08-2005, 12:52 PM

Keith, you guys are getting *terrible* deals on T1s up there in Virginny...

Another idea might be to continue to host the pictures, but use a link or a thumbnail instead of the entire image in embedded in the thread. The user could click to see the picture. That way we don't pull down the images again after we have already seen them, but want to read the comments.

This method was initiated and is now used on another popular WW forum, but created problems for the many different software users, one of which was mine, and I was using a current software version, but we never did get it to work to show the pics. That is the prime reason that I hardly ever go to that forum any more. Pleeeeeeeeeeeease, DO NOT use this method.

Darren Ford

03-08-2005, 1:41 PM

I think the problem you experienced was due to a failed implementation of the method, not the method. But you raise a good point, if it can't be done where it works for everyone, it should not be done.

Larry Browning

03-08-2005, 1:52 PM

Keith Outten

03-08-2005, 1:55 PM

Note that subscriptions were not included in my list of options. I don't believe that a subscriber fee would be realistic for several reasons. Many woodworkers could not afford to pay and we certainly don't want to lose anyone because of their financial status. Statistically a very low percentage of people would prefer to pay for an online service, I think that this would also be the case here at SMC. If the number of members was reduced to those who are willing to pay we would not even need any financial help since we can easilly support over three thousand woodworkers on bandwidth that we have never used so it is essentially free as long as HRO is in business. Managing the collection of membership fees would require lots of work for someone, obviously it can be done but it would be much easier to have to deal with a handfull of companies than thousands of individuals.

We already have a limit on picture size which we think is reasonable, smaller photos would save resources but reduce the value of our forums considerably and we don't want to go backwards. I think we all agree that pictures are invaluable to our community, to disallow photographs is an option we just don't want to have to choose.

I really believe that with over 4200 members helping we should easilly be able to find ten to twenty companies that would Sponsor Forums. Subsidised by the sale of hats, coffee cups and whatever other items our members want to purchase we should be able to fund our current services and any other services our members want in the future, all without having to badger people for money or make anyone feel bad because they cannot afford to financially contribute.

Keith Outten

03-08-2005, 2:08 PM

Ok, call me stupid, but I do not understand what a commercial forum is, and how it will generate cash for SMC. Can someone please explain this for me? I guess if I could see one in action, that might help.

Larry :confused:
Larry,

Like all of our Public Forums here at SMC Commercial Forums would allow companies to advertise their products, provide tech support and obtain feedback directly from our woodworking community. Imagine that you could visit SMC and be the first to know about new products and sales items directly from companies who have joined us and have tech support at your fingertips. Catalogs are very expensive to produce and to distribute and they don't always hit the mark but here at SMC there are over 4,200 woodworkers with real names to communicate with. A monthly fee for a commercial forum would pay the bandwidth bills and our members could continue to join and participate for free.

Everyone wins!
Providing everyone exercises good citizenship the relationship is beneficial to both groups. The reason it isn't normally done is due to the fact that companies prefer not to have to deal with unreasonable rants and complaints. We on the other hand are a self moderating community and are able to keep those who are irresponsible in check.

Michael Ballent

03-08-2005, 2:09 PM

I know that SMC is trys to stay away from from advertising but maybe something that is fed from Google Ads would not be too bad. I personally do not have much problem with those ads since they do not move and flash around.

Jim Dunn

03-08-2005, 2:14 PM

Call me stupid as well:eek: but I don't know enough about band width, computers in general or Commercial forums to make an informed statement about what will keep this forum up and running;). That being said, my wife would support me if I wanted to pay for the privilage of visiting this site! That's something as she is some what of a penny pincher:o. Let us know how we can help Ken, and I'm sure the vast number of us will support you.

Tony Falotico

03-08-2005, 2:24 PM

Note that subscriptions were not included in my list of options. I don't believe that a subscriber fee would be realistic for several reasons.

I respectfully disagree with discounting the subscriber option. With the number of members we have, we are talking about a minimal amount per year per member. As far as being able to afford it, or not wanting to pay for full service, perhaps different subscription levels -- browse and read only; browse and post text only; full privileges, browse, post text and pic's.

As far as loosing members, I think we have a large enough core group that would stay. Also, subscription fees would tend to keep out the undesirables and spammers. It would also give a way to make sure that REAL names are being used.

I for one would be willing to pay an annual fee for Da 'Creek to remain as is. I worry about commercializing and losing the current 'grab a cup of coffee and pull up a log' atmosphere.

I will support whatever direction y'all chose to go, but I think the subscription fee is a viable and workable option. Let's keep the Creek as is, and make changes that we want to, not because we are forced to.

Dennis Peacock

03-08-2005, 2:47 PM

So....a new line is about $1K per month....or about $3 per member to support an entire year of new line service fees?

Jeff Sudmeier

03-08-2005, 2:52 PM

I respectfully disagree with discounting the subscriber option. With the number of members we have, we are talking about a minimal amount per year per member. As far as being able to afford it, or not wanting to pay for full service, perhaps different subscription levels -- browse and read only; browse and post text only; full privileges, browse, post text and pic's.

As far as loosing members, I think we have a large enough core group that would stay. Also, subscription fees would tend to keep out the undesirables and spammers. It would also give a way to make sure that REAL names are being used.

I for one would be willing to pay an annual fee for Da 'Creek to remain as is. I worry about commercializing and losing the current 'grab a cup of coffee and pull up a log' atmosphere.

I will support whatever direction y'all chose to go, but I think the subscription fee is a viable and workable option. Let's keep the Creek as is, and make changes that we want to, not because we are forced to.
Tony, I am with you, I wish that this were true! Unfortuantely, it is not. I used to belong to a forum on another subject that was much like this one. It was created by someone with excess bandwidth and grew to have over 4,000 members in a VERY short period of time. This site was also support by a magazine the founder created. Over time the cost of the site was greater than what the founder was able to bring in. He decided to go subscription.

What followed was one of the ugliest things that I have been a part of. A nice warm forum turned into a forum of hatred between the members, that still exists to this day, on the replacements that popped up when it died.

Long story short, the forum went from having thousands of members to having 200 and is now back to being free. It has lost it's luster and I don't think it will gain it back. It seems sad that people will not pay for this wonderful service we all love, but I was one of the ones that did not pay. Replacements popped up and most of the members went there, so the old forum was not the place it used to be. In the world of the internet pay forums generally do not work, someone will create a replacement or the members will migrate to the other similar forums.

All of the above said, I truely hope that the Comercial forums take off! I have contacted the few companies I have done WW business with to see if they are interested.

Karl Laustrup

03-08-2005, 3:00 PM

Just my dollar-two ninety eight, and keep up the good work, as we're all very appreciative.

NormNorman, your opinion is worth every bit of mine. I am officially increasing yours to a dollar-three ninty eight.

Jim Fancher

03-08-2005, 3:02 PM

How much bandwidth could a tiny forum like this use? Even with all of the attachments I'd assume less than 150GB a month. Strip the attachments and let the members find hosting for themselves. That's what all of the 3rd party photo hosting houses are for. Once you do that, your bandwidth would drop to a fraction of what it is now. Problem solved.

Bill Lewis

03-08-2005, 3:08 PM

I have to agree that pay forums won't work. There's too much competition out there, and least 3 or 4 other forums exsit. That being said, most of the other forums are getting sponsorship either direct and indirect, so there is obviously a market out there to support them. Any way you grow there will be some pains along the way in doing so.

I need to order a hat now...

Oh yes and my vote would be to drop the avatars and keep the pictures. At least in the short term. I really like the simplicity of keeping the pictures on the forum site. Yes, you can host them elsewhere, but you lose the archival aspects of them too. Off-siting posting of pictures, due to the slightly higher level of complexity, usually means you end up with fewer pictures posted, and therefore fewer pictures to see. This, to a degree, negates the benefit of them.

John Hulett

03-08-2005, 3:10 PM

Keith - will SMC be actively targeting specific potential sponsors? It might really be worth going to a Grizzly, Delta, Mini Max, etc. that are often seen in posts here to see if they would want to partner with SMC. That's a term I would use too; "Partner." I think that a new forum for manufacturers to communicate directly to this community is a great idea, and will be even best if SMC is able to secure agreements with tier-one manufacturers and/or retailers.

I agree with Jeff - while many who are already familiar with SMC would be willing to pay a modest subscription, many others would not. Likewise, subscription-based membership would deter new members from ever joining, effectively stopping SMC growth.

Keith Outten

03-08-2005, 4:37 PM

Dennis Peacock,

I hear Ya! Three dollars per year sounds kind of miniscule for a one year subscription, the only drawback is that so many people are offended by subscriber fees. I guess I am like you and would personally prefer to pay a small fee that is less than one magazine issue and to me much more valuable. Unfortunately subscriber fees may very well cause problems which we don't need and I think we all agree that we don't want to exclude any woodworkers who want to join us.

Bill Lewis,
We don't have any competition since we aren't in the business of making money and we don't have anything to sell. SawMill Creek is a Community of Woodworkers, a friendly place to gather with friends and share the love of woodworking. Your right about the pictures, they are invaluable to our Community.

John Hulett,

Per Aaron Koehls announcement we would definately rather invite only companies that would compliment our Community. The idea is not just about funds, these companies would be "Partners" to use your term and would add more information and services to our existing Forums. I expect that we would all prefer to support the businesses that support us so they would have a unique advantage when we purchase tools and supplies. I know that some will always purchase based on the lowest price but I never shop that way. I prefer to patronize companies that I can communicate with when I have questions or need help.

In the short term we may be able to disallow Guests the ability to view pictures. This would be a short term fix and it would probably convert many Lurkers to Members.

The path we take is really a decision our Community must make.

Dennis Peacock

03-08-2005, 4:41 PM

All good points. I have to agree with the majority here. Subscription based would be a stronger deterrent than an inviting one. I recall my suggestion for fee based. :rolleyes: :D

Jim Stastny

03-08-2005, 4:44 PM

Keith,

I agree with the idea of a commercial forum. I hope it works. Also, with everybody else, THANKS FOR THE GREAT WORK, and SAWMILL CREEK

Dan Gill

03-08-2005, 5:05 PM

I didn't see this suggestion in my quick read-through of this thread, but I would not be averse to doing away with avatars. The pictures of the projects are much more important than the avatars IMHO. And they do eat up a lot of bandwidth.

Tony Falotico

03-08-2005, 5:11 PM

Dennis Peacock,

I hear Ya! Three dollars per year sounds kind of miniscule for a one year subscription, the only drawback is that so many people are offended by subscriber fees.

Two thoughts to ponder:

How much are you willing to pay per year for a magazine subscription?
Name a WW Magazine better than SMC............

Stefan Antwarg

03-08-2005, 5:30 PM

I like SMC the way it is now - with avitars and pictures. So I too hope that the commercial forum idea works. Regarding subscriptions, it is probably not a good idea. But I don't see why a sticky thread can't be placed at the top of each forum with a link for an optional donation. I have been involved with forums that did this and it worked just fine. Nobody has to know who contributed, and it doesn't need to be anybody's business. Give whatever amount if you want.

Also, you should put clickable commercial banners at the top and bottom of the pages. They are unobtrusive and another way to make some money. There is one forum that I visit that has done very well with this. The forum owner gets on every now and then and mentions/reviews a good product that he has used from one of the companies. And of course he suggests that we all go to the company's web site to check it out. Sometimes, these companies offer contests and the members have to go to the website and answer a certain question about the product. Then e-mail it to the contest moderator. Great incentive to keep members going to the company's websites. And it encourages the companies to keep advertising. It all works very well, and does not get in the way. The membership is very much like ours and rules are similar.

Stefan

John Shuk

03-08-2005, 6:44 PM

I wouldn't mind contributing to help with the fund but would be against a subscription. As "seasoned members" we all understand the value of these forums but I wouldn't have joined if there was a fee in the beginning. How many valuable additions would we miss out on if they had to pay? I would like to see you set up a PayPal so I could easily and conveniently send a donation. I have the address but I am just awful at trying to get a check from the wife then sending it out. I wonder if Verizon does the new fiber optic to the premise service in your area in Va if there would be a substantial savings to you. At the top end 30 megabit service is about $200 a month. I saw it in action the other day and it is blindingly fast. I don't know if it would help with hosting or if the T1 is a better option.
Anyway, I like how the Creek is run. If there were no avatars it would not be a huge loss. I like them but would be less painful to lose than pictures. I'll also buy a coffee mug or t-shirt.

John Bailey

03-08-2005, 6:46 PM

As a relatively new member, I can tell you that when I retired, and started becoming serious about woodworking, I checked all the other forums. I don't even check them anymore. This is the one that gets my vote each time. Someone called it a "grab a cup of coffee and kick your feet up," kind of place.(or to that effect) I'm sure it's going to become a "comfortable old shirt and a favourite song" type place for me. I think for the short term the idea of a "sticky thread" is a good one. I would suggest some type of graph showing how close we are to our goal each month would also be a good idea. I know if I saw the graph a little short each month, I would kick in a little more. I would also suggest that for those of us who would choose to do this, $3 a month is a good figure. That would mean less than 10% of the members would have to chip in each month. I'll bet we would get more than enough.

Frank P. said earlier we can donate now. How do we do this? I'm going to start my $3 a month now whether is becomes a "sticky thread" or not. If many of us started now, we could buy a little time.

If I contact a commercial enterprize, how do they sign-up? How much will it cost them? They will ask.

John

Tim Morton

03-08-2005, 7:08 PM

I was a member of the "tundra solutions" forum and it went to a combination pay site/free site. If you were a paid subscriber you had free reign, and if you were non paying member you could only visit the "general" area. You could post in the general and your post would be available for a day or 2 before moving into the pay only area. It was a complete nightmare in my opnion. I like the idea of companies auctioning off products with the profit going to SMC. We all love to buy things. As for losing the picture hosting...that would be a huge loss for SMC. I think of this place as being a "premier" site and with that should come a cost. Maybe something like the PBS fund drive. increments of donations get different rewards...hats mugs...that kind of stuff. Personally I would have no problems paying a fee to use this forum if it meant keeping it just the way it is or even improving it.

Kent Cori

03-08-2005, 7:51 PM

Tony,

The answer to your first question is that my WW magazine subscriptions generally run between $20 and $30 per year. The answer to your second question is that all those mags together aren't nearly as valuable to me as SMC. I'd be more than happy at $30 a year for the privilege to belong to this community let alone $3.

Keith, that said I fully support your commercial forum concept. There are dozens of great woodworking businesses out there that many of us routinely patronize. We had great commercial support for the Freedom Pens Project almost without asking. :) I’d be very surprised if a large percentage of them wouldn’t jump at this opportunity.

Either way, I'm here for the long haul! :cool:

Carl Eyman

03-08-2005, 8:28 PM

Keith and All

I sure have no objection to trying these commercial forums, but in my heart I think that if we have don't have enough pride in this forum; don't have enough desire to keep it going so we'll pay its cost; won't put our pocketbook where our mouth is; then we really don't want it enough to keep it going. We've had a great free ride for two years. I've enjoyed it, profited from it, and hopefully contributed to it. Now it is time, I think to step up and be counted. If you Keith, or Aaron, or whomever is best qualified to do so, would take the projected budget for the next year, and divide it by (1) the number of members, or (2) by the number of projected posts, or (3) the number of projected visits; so we could know what our fair share is based on our usage and then invite us to contribute our fair share.

I know many others would disagree with this idea, but I'd like to see an indication next to a member's name indicating he /she is a fair share contributor.

It is nice to think that each of us will step up and pull our weight without coercion. I believe that is generally true, but we do need to know what "our weight" is. Let's decide that first and then mount a campaign to encourage people to do their part.

OK Creekers, (or if you're like me creakers) let's ralk this over, make a decision, and do what is necessary to keep this forum growing as it has been.

Steve Stube

03-08-2005, 8:28 PM

The first time I came to SMC there was much talk about a "Shop Tour" forum and that was all the hook I needed to look in from time to time waiting for that forum to get underway. Every now and again "Shop Tours" as a forum received more conversation. Well we still don't have a "Shop Tours" forum but I'm a regular reader if not a poster to SMC and find plenty of very useful information and encouragment here. I would dearly hate to see anything go a-mis with SMC and the learning tool it has become for me. I'm kind of bumbed out by this thread as only today I invited another member to post a Shop Tour for his very unique shop. My shop tour is posted elsewhere (I can't say where) but I have slipped in a couple of photos from a third party host from time to time (maybe the wrong time, sometimes) anyway the photos shared by other members are a real delight to me and I hope they will continue to be part of SMC. I will continue to wait for the "special" forum in the meantime especially if it's the photos that are mucking up the works.I'm very appreciative to those that keep SMC rolling along, thank you.

Wes Baltzell

03-08-2005, 8:49 PM

Hi Keith, I'm a lurker. I like this site far more than others I lurk at. I was wondering if you could co-host at a larger provider upstream from you at a more reasonable cost? This might not be an option currently, but I know of other ISP's that do this. I know they also have a traffic charge as well, but that charge is far less that 1k per month for a new line. This could also allow you more flexibility as to how pictures and avatars are sized as well.

You might be able to save bandwidth with a cache server as well.

Another thought is compression, which could expand your current bandwidth 100 - 400 percent. Which could be a viable alternative, to increasing your bandwidth.

Respectfully,

Wes Baltzell Sr.

Kent Cori

03-08-2005, 8:51 PM

As the saying goes, upon further review I thought of another option. We could just charge 10¢ for every word we all misspell or mistype. That should bring in enough for several T-1 lines and a bunch of servers with money left over! :eek: :o :D

Mitchell Garnett

03-08-2005, 9:40 PM

Why not conduct a poll to get an indication of how many members would be willing to make a $1 a month (or some figure) to keep SMC as it is?

Tom Peterson

03-08-2005, 9:54 PM

Keith,
Could you and/or Aaron provide a template for advising suppliers of the commerical forum? This could be used by members for a consistent and correct message. The upcoming Woodworker Shows would be an excellent time to advise our suppliers of a site of common benefit. I know that in some exchanges I had with some of th engineering folks at Delta they were un-aware of the forum. (I did send them a link) Considering the amount of money and opinion flying through the forum it would seem to be a win win. And, for larger suppliers to have a customer service scan the board once a day is minimal effort for a decent upside potential.

I think the pay as you go would fail eventually, let's try our easter eggs in this basket

Ken Fitzgerald

03-08-2005, 10:16 PM

First I want to thank Keith, Jackie, Aaron, the moderators and the others that work so hard to make this website what it is. Like others, I've lost touch with other sites. No need to go there. The atmosphere, the people, the personalities from such a wide variety of backgrounds and skill levels make this place ROCK! I truly hope the Commercial thing works......if not then maybe we may need to try the donation and/or subscription alternatives. I disagree with Carl's suggestion, however. I'd be willing to donate money to keep this site operating in it's current format but would rather not see any mention of said donation or donor levels. IMHO people who can afford to donate would, those who can't won't. Embarrassing people who can't afford to donate or don't want to donate won't get them to donate. Personally, I would gladly pay a monthly subscription fee for full priveleges here. The photos and the diagrams/drawings add so much to my understanding. Often said "a picture is worth a thousand words" and it is so. I'm sure one of the reasons so many people lurk this site is because of the photos and the discussions. Keith....keep us informed on the progress. Let us know if we can be of any assistance!

Charlie Plesums

03-08-2005, 10:52 PM

Thanks to everyone who has made it work so far

The commercial forums seem like a fine idea, but may not be enough, at least for now

I would be glad to buy a hat, if you promise to store it for me - I have too many now that I don't wear. I would be glad to buy a mug, but you have to store that for me too.

If you had a membership fee, I would not have joined - too many subscription sites are of little value. But having been a member of SMC for a while, I have seen the value, and would be glad to make an occasional contribution. Sort of like membership in your public radio or TV station - they can't live without your contributions, but they don't shut off access to those who haven't seen enough value (or can't afford) to contribute.

I recommend that you determine a "supporting" membership cost - if operations cost $3 per member per year, but only 30% are expected to contribute, then that membership would be $10 per year. Make a sticky that keeps us posted on the budget. Maybe recognize those who have contributed (their name in all caps for a year, for example, or in a color based on when they contributed). Make payment easy - paypal, credit card, EFT, cash, or check. Allow those who want to, perhaps the most active, to pay more.

No requirement to pay to play. Let people get hooked. The first fix is free. I would be glad to send my money - and you don't even have to buy and store the hat or mug.

Bruce Page

03-08-2005, 11:53 PM

I very much hope that the manufactures take advantage of the new commercial forums, I would hate to see any changes to the SMC format. That said, I think Dennis P’s suggestion for a PayPal donation tab has strong merit. It could be emphasized that all PayPal donations are strictly voluntary and the tab should be kept low key.

Christopher Stahl

03-09-2005, 12:37 AM

Let me say that this is a fantastic site, and all others sites pale by comparison. I can't wait to spend time here each day.

Time for my opinions....... :)

There are a lot of great ideas in this thread and I think there are ways that this will work. The commercial banners and contributions can really make a dent here. The manufacture forums sound like a step in the right direction. I think there is a need to advertise donation requests. A donation banner should be very visible to keep reminding people that our support is needed to keep SMC place the wonderful place it is.

I definitely don't support advertising who, and how much, one donates. It would be great to praise those who can make significant donations, but it would adversely affect those who can't afford to. Donations need to remain private, although, I do like having information about total donations received. I'd definitely feel a little more pride hearing of donation milestones from the entire SMC family.

I'll keep this part short. Sorry, but a pay service is just not going to work. If you want to lower bandwidth use, a pay service is the quickest way to do it. Enough said.

I think there is definitely a need to shop around for prices at other colo's. Those prices seem a bit high. There is a very good possibility of saving money and getting higher bandwidth.

I'd say, let's not do anything rash. Certainly make sure what ever happens, it's thoroughly researched and truely benefits SMC and its members.

my three fifty,
chris

Christopher Pine

03-09-2005, 1:32 AM

Pretty Much my thoughts as well! I was thinking more along the line of $1.00 a month.. thats only $12 stinking Dallors and you get much more out of this forum than some lame magazine that cost more than that!
Just my thoughts.. I do understand the point however of how to collect and deal with the contributions.. That would be a pain for someone!

So....a new line is about $1K per month....or about $3 per member to support an entire year of new line service fees?

Ian MacDonald

03-09-2005, 2:52 AM

What about the public radio model? Would we have enough members here who are able to subscribe at some reasonable rate? Sure there would be folks out there that could not or would not want to pay but the public radio stations seem to find enough altruistic members to keep things running. Perhaps we could solicit donations of mechandise from vendors which could in turn be used as gifts to get 'subscribing' members. We could also limit certain features to 'subscribing' members such as access to the archives, hosting of pictures, etc. I've belonged to several sites where, after I determined the value of the resources offered, was happy to pay a small fee to access more advanced features.

Just some ideas...

Cheers,

-- Ian

Bryan Nuss

03-09-2005, 5:32 AM

I agree that contributions from members may be a viable option, but not in the form of "membership fees", but as a "donation to the cause". A PayPal address would be most helpful. A guideline of about $3/mo would be most acceptable for this wonderful site, the best designed and moderated forum I have found.

I violently disagree with the idea of publicly indicating whether or not a member has or has not made a contribution. This is the kind of thing that has turned me off the Freedom Pens forum.

Frank Pellow

03-09-2005, 7:24 AM

...Frank P. said earlier we can donate now. How do we do this?
...

John
You send a cheque to:

Hampton Roads Online
1213H George Washington Memorial Highway
Yorktown, VA 23693

and write on the cheque that it is a donation to the operation of the Saw Mill Creek website.

Frank Pellow

03-09-2005, 7:26 AM

I want to go on record as being opposed to any scheme that shows whether or not a person has made a contribution to SMC.

Karl Laustrup

03-09-2005, 8:28 AM

I want to go on record as being opposed to any scheme that shows whether or not a person has made a contribution to SMC.
I'm on record with Mr. Pellow on this one.

jim mckee

03-09-2005, 9:18 AM

When are peak hrs?

so they could be avoided
jim

Jim Fancher

03-09-2005, 10:40 AM

Why don't you lease a server in a proper datacenter? You get a firewall, backups, plenty of disk space, tons of security and best of all ... tons of burstable bandwidth. You should be able to run 100 or more websites on a server.

Also, it would cost less than 1/10 of that T1 line you're looking at and be infinitely easier to run.

Dennis Peacock

03-09-2005, 11:39 AM

Please allow me to "clarify" what I stated earlier when talking about a member subscription rate.

<b>A 1 year subscription would only cost THREE DOLLARS. Not $3 per month, but $3 per Year.</b>

How much do we spend for lunch each day?
How much do we spend on tools for the shop?
How much have we spent on magazine subscriptions in the last 3 years that provides as much help and information as SMC?

For me?

More than $3 per day for lunch.
More than $3 per month on tools and supplies for the shop.
More than $30 per year on annual magazine subscriptions.
Money paid to SMC for 100 times more info and help than anything I have ever purchased in books, videos and magazines? $0.00

I vote strongly AGAINST showing a member as a contributor, how much they contributed or any reflection of any member of SMC. A nice graph would be helpful for general membership to see how it's going and help....but ONLY if they "wanted" to.

Just some thoughts to "ponder". :D

Cliff Newton

03-09-2005, 12:31 PM

Not only should non-contributors be identified and publicly flogged, I believe the following picture should be used as their avatar until they cough up some dough. :D

Keith Outten

03-09-2005, 12:31 PM

Roger Fitzsimonds

03-09-2005, 1:08 PM

Well I am a part time lurker part time contributator. But Sawmill Creek is the general woodworking forum I participate or read. I have been here from the beginning and plan to be here for the long haul. I will go with the flow on what we need to do. I am opposed to publically posting who and how much donations are. This is a great site I spend probably to much time on it but I fell it is time well spent.

Thats my 2 cents
Roger

Frank Pellow

03-09-2005, 1:23 PM

...
I am opposed to publically posting who and how much donations are.
...
Roger
Roger, do you mean you are opposed to showing donations for an individual or in total?

I, too, do not want to see anything that can be linked to individuals, but I think it would be good to publiush things such as 'total contribution amount' and 'number of contributors'.

Paul Thompson

03-09-2005, 1:45 PM

I read a computer geeky website called Linux Weekly News (http://www.lwn.net). I have been reading it for years now.

Well, a year or two ago, they announced that they were going to have to call it quits due to the finance side of running the site. They got an amazing response and developed a varied plan for keeping the site alive.

Part of that was commercial support, etc.

However, one aspect if it was an OPTIONAL subscription model. You can join LWN in one of four levels:

1. $2.50 / month - Starving Hacker
2. $5.00 / month - Professional Hacker
3. $10.00 / month - Project Leader

I have joined them at the middle level and pay with a $30 every six months payment.

Now, I know this isn't much. But, times only two hundred subscriptions at $5/month, that comes to $1000 / month, before any credit card processing fees.

With LWN, all that you lose by not subscribing is that you have to wait a week to read the weekly newsetter they post. Daily articles on their site are available immediately.

I was thinking that SMC could do something similar. I would be MORE then happy to pay $5 or so per month. I am sure some could afford a lower level, and some higher.

And with SMC, you might keep both free and subscribed services exactly the same. After all, those that are paying are doing so because we love the site, not because we "have to".

Anyhow, I hope this might be possible. As a possibility, you might consider chatting with the folks from LWN to get some tips on how to set it all up more easily.

Good Luck. I'll have to go find the donate button on the site somewhere. :)

Tony Falotico

03-09-2005, 3:45 PM

The annual subscription option is viable but certainly not our best choice. Remember that we would have to handle the checks and update accounts plus the banking. Assume that we had 4,800 members, that is an average of 400 transactions per month. Clearly the Commercial Forums are our best option and those who want to donate may do so whenever they wish.

I had a good conversation this morning with a co-worker who dispelled some myths and fears I had about a commercial site. Basically I envisioned pop ups, responses geared towards purchasing sponsors products and a general degradation of what the Creek is all about. He assured me that a well run commercial forum separates sponsorship from general discussions. As well as SMC is currently moderated, he convinced me that this very well could be the best way to go.

I also think that the contributions, much like public TV does is a great idea. I yield to Keith's statements about the handling of checks, updating accounts, banking and general management of subscriptions would create a further burden on staff and additional expense to running the forum.

As was stated above by Kent, I too am here for the long haul. I've been here since the pond was drained and the Creek started flowing, and don't plan on leaving. This is the most informative, rewarding, friendly and enjoyable web site I've ever found, and every day I look forward to kicking back and enjoying time at the Creek after a hard day at the office.