curly maple tearout?

[alex grams]

So, as a new turner, it seems the cheapest blanks I can find around are curly maple (go figure). Yet this seems to be a difficult wood to learn with, given that i continually get tearout (sometimes fairly minimal, sometimes more significant). Is this something I am doing wrong (I have sharpened all tools to what I feel are good, sharp edges)?

Also, is maple less forgiving on achieving a tool-mark free surface for finishing? I sand and sand, but still have those dang toolmarks that show up in finishing. (I am not talking about the tactile deep ruts of the tool, but rather the tool marks you can only see with finish but not feel with your fingers).

Thanks in advance.

[John Keeton]

...it seems the cheapest blanks I can find around are curly maple ...Alex, the tearout and tool marks are the payback for getting such good deals on curly maple!!:D

It is possible the maple you have is punky, but barring that, I have not had an issue with tearout on curly maple so long as my tools were VERY sharp. And, maple will sand to a much finer finish than will most woods IMO. Are the toolmarks heel bruising? Before I started using a double ground gouge with the heel ground back, I did experience heel marks with many woods, including maple.

Do you have any pics? That might help.

[Roger Chandler]

+1 on the heel bruising the wood fibers.........in my beginning days of turning I had the same problem until some wise turner on this forum told me to put a second bevel on my gouge by grinding away the heel portion...........worked like a charm. No matter how much you sand, those heel bruising marks just won't come out!

[David E Keller]

Agree with the idea about bruising. Tearout with curly and higky figured wood can happen because of the constantly changing grain direction... Sheer cutting with the gouge held at an acute angle helps me get a better surface than standard push cuts. Photos would be helpful.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree with the cutting back the bevel and the shear cut David mentioned. I always touch up the gouge for the final couple of cuts and the a shear cut.

[Robert McGowen]

You did not mention what speed you are turning at, but turning at a higher speed may help.

[Wally Dickerman]

I have turned a lot of curly maple and have had no significant problems with tearout. Maple as a rule is one of the easier woods to turn.

I have found that when turners have tearout problems it usuallly comes from cutting against the grain. Always, or whenever possible, cut WITH the grain. Any experienced woodworker knows that if you plane a piece of wood against the grain you'll experience tearout. That also applies to cutting a spinning piece of wood. When turning face grain, cut from small dia. to large. When turning endgrain cut from large dia. to small.

When cutting against the grain you'll be pulling out unsupported wood fibers, resulting in tearout.

[Scott Hackler]

Another helpfull hint for new turners: commit to the cut. Meaning if your turning the inside of a bowl, start your cut and don't stop that cut until you've reached the center. Starting and stopping your cuts will leave a tool mark at every one of those points.

Also, looks closely at the cutting egde of your gouge / tools. Sometimes a bad grinder wheel or a non-trued wheel will leave an edge that has a mico jagged edge. If you can see that on the gouge, you'll see it on the wood. If thats the case, fix or replace the wheel and/or start honing the edges.

[Thom Sturgill]

All very good advice. With curly maple there often is no 'with the grain' because of the cupping the lead into the curl is always against the grain, but Wally's comment still holds. Shear cuts are very important with highly figured grain. It does indeed sound like you are talking about heel bruising. The sharp heel of the gouge burnishes the wood by crushing the fibers, and leaves lines that show after a finish is applied.

[alex grams]

I have been cutting downhill/with the grain with no problem. I will try and get some pictures. It is a salad bowl shape and I seem to get the worst marking at the apex of the curve towards the top of the bowl.

I have done several pieces of curly before and, while having small markings, nothing was as bad as this piece.

[Bill Wyko]

This is by no means good advice but are your tools sharp enough to shave hair off your arm? LMAO. I do that to see if mine are sharp. It grows back fast but don't cut yourself.:eek:

[alex grams]

Bill,
I only really work my carving/planing/chisels that sharp. From everything I have read turning tools are hit on the 120/150 grit stones and that is to a sufficient sharpness, as long as the bevels/faces are a consistent grind and there aren't multiple facets on the tools.

[Bill Wyko]

I use a wet sharpener, it really does the job. Even a roughing gouge will shave you. All in good fun.

[Scott Hackler]

Bill,
I only really work my carving/planing/chisels that sharp. From everything I have read turning tools are hit on the 120/150 grit stones and that is to a sufficient sharpness, as long as the bevels/faces are a consistent grind and there aren't multiple facets on the tools.

Alex, that is totally subjective to each turner. Like Bill, I want a razor sharp edge. I believe it not only cuts better but with good tool control, it leaves a surface that needs sanding starting at 220 ...not 80. There are more turners that use the gouges right off the grinder than the way I do it, but it's what works for me. I wan't to have fun turning not to fight it and expecially don't like sanding with low grits! :)

[alex grams]

If i had access to a wet sharpener I would go that route, but i only have the slow speed grinder to work with for now.

I will try the back bevel on the gouge tonight and see if that makes a difference.

[Scott Hackler]

Also, if you do a search and read up on the CBN wheels, you will notice a tread of the people who use those wheels saying that the edges are as sharp as a honed edge. If that type of edge isn't really nessasary, than why spill out $200 for one of those wheels? (that i want but can't get until next year!)

[alex grams]

I have taunted myself several times with those CBN wheels Scott, but from consensus on a few other threads, there are other things I could use to better gain from the money when first getting into turning, though the wheel is on my longer-term list.

[Reed Gray]

Most has been covered.

Sharp tools. Check!

Relieve sharp edge on back of bevel by grinding away about half of it. Check!

High shear/slicing cut angle on tool. Check! I am not sure that every one understands this one. The higher the shear angle is, the cleaner the cut is. Scraper flat on tool rest is 0 shear angle, rolling the flutes of your gouge over on its side a bit gives a higher shear angle, maybe 45 degrees or so. Using a fluteless gouge, you can get 70 plus degree shear angle. Any shallow fluted gouge will give a higher shear angle. Deep V gouges can't do this as well. Some times dropping your handle and using more of the wing will give you a higher shear angle, but this is more difficult to do on the inside of a bowl.

Rubbing the bevel gives a cleaner cut than not rubbing the bevel.

Letting the tool cut, rather than forcing it gives a cleaner cut.

Some times wetting the grain with water, oil, or other finish stuff can lubricate the grain so it cuts more easily rather than tearing.

Some times you just have to spend more time with the 80 grit gouge.

10,000 more times! But Teacher, that is what you said last time. Well, then 10,000 more times.

robo hippy

[Jon Prouty]

Are you getting flexure of the bowl itself? This really casues me issues when turning thin (I am not good enough yet I guess to turn fairly thin bowls - I need to build a bowl steady). That gouge heel will cause issues as other already mentioned. Pictures can really help.

Good Luck!
JP