Box question

[Mark Baldwin III]

The box I'm making for my Dad's revolver is coming along. The dovetails are cut (the very first thing I've made with DT's). The back panel is presenting just a little problem for me. I want it recessed about half an inch, so the back of the box is hollow. The hollow will allow me to put in the mounting to hang it from the wall. I could plow a groove, but the case is sort of thin. I could use glue blocks in the back, and tack the panel to them, but a gap would likely show. Or I could make a molding of some sort that would go inside the box, and the panel would mount to the back of that. Here's a few pics that may help. The panel has not been cut to size yet, since the mounting methods involve different final dimensions. What might be a good way to proceed?

[Chris Griggs]

How thin is the wood? I would just plow a shallow groove... 1/8" in depth is plenty and unless your wood is below 1/4" thick should leave enough wood to be strong enough for a small box. Don't forget, since those are through dovetails, the groove will need to be stopped on either the pin or tail boards, depending on it's location, otherwise it will go through the endgrain and you'll have a little square gap in the ends of either your pins or tails.

[lowell holmes]

My response will probably draw a bit of disagreement.

I attended a basics class in woodworking with hand tools one time. One of the things we built was a Shaker Candle Box. We glued the bottom on to the dove tailed sides.

I've built at least a dozen candle boxes since then and glued all of the bottoms. None of the boxes have failed.

If I were building your box, I would recess the back and glue it in. I would consider nailing the back after the glue has dried, using brass nails and space them evenly, creating a design element. I found some brass nails with heads that stand proud. They actually look good in certain applications.

[Chris Griggs]

My response will probably draw a bit of disagreement.

I've built at least a dozen candle boxes since then and glued all of the bottoms. None of the boxes have failed.


Actually, I've done that plenty of times too, but would not do it for anything that spans more then 6 to 8 inches across the grain. Not saying it would necessarily pull apart, but I would not want to risk it. At this point I'm not sure he could add the rabbet though without creating gaps in the dovetails or doing stopped rabbets - again it would show through on the end grain.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Thanks guys. The wood for the bottom and sides is 3/8, the top is 1/4. Stopped grooves may not be so bad, they would be in the sides, on the long pieces the grooves would be hidden by the tails. I'll give both of those ideas some thought. The next step is sizing and smoothing the back. That part is a bit of a pain for me right now. I never made an appliance for holding thin sections of wood. I guess I should put that on my to-do list.

[lowell holmes]

Actually, I've done that plenty of times too, but would not do it for anything that spans more then 6 to 8 inches across the grain. Not saying it would necessarily pull apart, but I would not want to risk it. At this point I'm not sure he could add the rabbet though without creating gaps in the dovetails or doing stopped rabbets - again it would show through on the end grain.

I was not thinking about cross grain movement when I posted my suggestion.

I might consider making a u shaped molding that could be wrapped around the back panel. The panel and molding together could be slipped into the carcass and glued.

[Chris Griggs]

If your wood is 3/8" thick I think a 1/8" deep groove will be just fine. Just be careful when you mortise out the ends of the stopped groove - its VERY easy to break out the pieces of end grain concealing the end of the groove. Also, the more material you leave at the end of the stopped groove the better. Since your material is 3/8" you should be able to leave about 1/4" of material at the end of the stopped groove and not have it block the mating groove at all. For stopped grooves I like to mortise out the ends with a chisel so I have enough room to start and stop my router plane. I then use the router plane to remove everything in between. I think most folks use a chisel to hog out the bulk of the waste and then just smooth the bottom with the router. Also, good layout and just a chisel gets the job done just fine as well; no ones going to see the bottom of the groove so it's not essential the you have a router plane to make it perfectly flat and smooth.

I work a fair bit of 1/2 and thinner stock. I find that below 3/8" is where the wood gets flexible enough that it can be tricky to plane. I avoid going any thinner than 3/8" unless the project necessitates it. On the plus side, you can get away with a bit more out of flattness on 1/4" stock because it is so flexible. I don't use any special appliance for thin stuff. I just have a couple <1/4" thick scraps of cherry and maple I keep at my bench - if I need to plane anything really thin, I just put two dogs directly across from each other so they are only proud of the surface like 1/8" and then put the thin piece of wood up against them to use as a stop. If you need a stop to prevent sideways movement for planing cross grain the same concept applies. Of course, you need two rows of dog holes or some hold fast holes in line with your dog holes for this to work.

[Chris Griggs]

Lowell, I like that 2nd idea a lot, and may use it sometime. Makes a lot of sense for thin box sides. I think there's a style of drawer that's done that way.

[John Coloccia]

I believe if you simply use a groove like a drawer, if you're still concerned about the the structure weakening because of the groove, little gussets in the corners (right underneath the back) will prevent the wood from flexing at that groove. It certainly won't PULL apart. The only danger, if any, would be flexing. Gussets in the corners will lock it all together. By gusset I mean but a little triangular piece in each corner, locking the perpendicular sides to each other and preventing any movement.

Then you can mount hanging stuff right to the gussets if you want to.

[lowell holmes]

I don't know why I'm responding, I surely am not the master wood worker.

In the class I spoke of in an earlier post, we did stopped dadoes. They certainly are not that difficult.

It requires a chisel that is the same width as the cutter in the plow plane. Define the dado with a mortise gauge, marking the ends with the chisel.
Plow the groove starting and finishing within the limits of the dado. Clean up the ends with the chisel and a router plane. I would practice before I attempted it because I've only done it a couple of times since then.

It's time for George Wilson, or Derek Cohen to chime in.

[Derek Cohen]

I can think of two other methods to add a bottom to the box. I have used both.

The first is to create slips for all four sides, and attach these with mitred corners.

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The other method may come in for some furrowed foreheads, but it works.

This simply involves placing the box on top of the oversized base, tracing the dimensions from the inside, and then sawing and shooting them to a close fit. Now use hide glue and a rubbed fit. The base needs to be a decent thickness for sufficient glue area. If in doubt, raise the base slightly and add glue blocks below as well. Or add beading on the inside ..

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Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Neeley]

Mark,

I'm not the master here either but with a 1/2" inset on the back, perhaps you could dovetail in a strip (1/2"x ?2"? x height of box) piece of wood laid flat gainst the wall and grain running vertical with which to mount the box. If the piece contained the tails. the joint would provide support. and that way the rear panel could "float" to provide for seasonal expansion and contraction of the wood.

Just my $0.02...

What is the opinion of others on this approach?

Jim

[Tom Vanzant]

Mark,
As I understand this box, it will hang on a wall, similar to as shown in your third picture if your workbench were the wall, right? Assuming that is the case, I would add 1/2" x ? rails across the top and bottom of the inside of the box, cut the back to fit and mount it against those rails, then add beads to the interior as Derek suggested to cover any gaps. The upper rail would be beveled to be part of a French cleat hanging scheme. Judging from the proportions of the box, the revolver has a fairly long barrel and weighs about 3-3.5#. You might secure the bottom panel to the lower rail to prevent flexing, assuming the bottom panel will support the weight of the revolver.

[Sean Hughto]

In the class I spoke of in an earlier post, we did stopped dadoes. They certainly are not that difficult.

It's not optimal in my view as the bit of wood where the groove would have continued is short grain and very weak. Better to just plow them through and make good looking plugs.

[Tony Shea]

I also think slips will be your best bet. It could get a bit tricky while you assemble the peice but is my prefered method for small boxes and drawers where the thin sides will not take a groove without comprimise.

[Chris Griggs]

I also think slips will be your best bet. It could get a bit tricky while you assemble the peice but is my prefered method for small boxes and drawers where the thin sides will not take a groove without comprimise.

I'm curious at what point (thickness of stock) do you and others decide to use slips? Below 1/2"? I've seen them used in drawers before but have never used them myself. I'm getting some really good insights from this thread.

[lowell holmes]

Sean, I don't disagree. I think the slips are a good solution. It's what I had in mind earlier, but I couldn't remenber what they are called.

I've never used them, but I probably will.

I can see some design elements in using them. The back side is often rather ugly and Derik's slips are certainly attractive.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Mark,
As I understand this box, it will hang on a wall, similar to as shown in your third picture if your workbench were the wall, right? Assuming that is the case, I would add 1/2" x ? rails across the top and bottom of the inside of the box, cut the back to fit and mount it against those rails, then add beads to the interior as Derek suggested to cover any gaps. The upper rail would be beveled to be part of a French cleat hanging scheme. Judging from the proportions of the box, the revolver has a fairly long barrel and weighs about 3-3.5#. You might secure the bottom panel to the lower rail to prevent flexing, assuming the bottom panel will support the weight of the revolver.

Did you sneak into my brain while I wasn't looking? You summed up exactly what I had been thinking of doing when I started this project. I'm going to reread this thread a couple of times before I press on.
Thanks everyone for all the great ideas!

[Mark Baldwin III]

In the end, I went with Sean's suggestion. I can only pick one idea at a time, right? Grooves are cut, just need to make some little plugs.
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This part presented some interesting work holding issues...more of my botching here:http://milwaukeemonastery.blogspot.com/2011/12/more-on-gun-box.html

[Sean Hughto]

It your choose the stock well, they can be nearly invisible. It your do half blinds, you can hide your groove by plcing it in a tail.