Rasp guidelines?

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

Everyone is sold on the concept of hand stitched rasps but for the beginner like me, I need some more guidance as to which shape and level of aggressiveness is appropriate.I plan to build a coffe table soon out of large (4" x3" rough) red oak stock and will put some curves on these legs and their intersection to the top. Not exactly Maloof style but more in that direction than not...I plan to rough it in on the bandsaw then shape the legs with rasps but which ones do I need to get it done properly?Thx

[Prashun Patel]

Many right answers here. But my vote is for the coarse dragon rasp from stewmac and a spoke shave. IMHO a fine rasp doesn't do much that sandpaper can't

[Jim Koepke]

Many right answers here. But my vote is for the coarse dragon rasp from stewmac and a spoke shave. IMHO a fine rasp doesn't do much that sandpaper can't

One thing a fine rasp does compared to sandpaper is what it doesn't do, wear out. Another thing to consider is what happens to blades that cut the wood after sanding. Rasps do not leave any grit behind.

Prashun makes a good suggestion about getting a spoke shave. Get one with a curved bottom if you are doing inside curves. Outside curves can be done with a flat bottomed spoke shave.

A rasp is really only needed if you have some tight spots where a spokeshave can not reach.

A coarse rasp is good for rapid removal. My two cabinet rasps are a 13 & 15. If another of the same style is purchased, I would likely try an 11 grain. Most likely though I would go with a different shape in a 12 or 13 depending on what purpose I had in mind. They are slow in the finer grain, but then they are not being used to dimension wood.

jtk

[Rick Fisher]

Well..

I have an Auriou 12" x #6 which hogs off material but leaves a rough surface.. Its shocking how fast it will remove stock.. Having said that I would have no hesitation in buying a Logier rasp..

I also have a 10" x #9 (Both are cabinet makers rasps) .. Which I use the most.. The #9 Grit is aggressive enough to change the shape of a piece without being crazy aggressive..

I also have a round rasp which I have used very little.. Its an Auriou as well .. I bought it thinking I would use it for extreme inside curves.. and have .. but it still looks new..

If I where to add rasps, I would add an #11 Grit x 10" Logier and a #13 x 10" Logier..

[Jim Belair]

I posed a question to Lee Valley customer service a few weeks back asking about the grain rating of the various rasps they handle. I have the quarter round Italian shaping rasp which I like a lot, and was considering their no-name hand cuts, the Japanese mill tooth files, or the Kutzall files. (catalog links below)

The Italian shaping rasp is listed as "#2" (off scale coarse by Auriou/Liogier standard?), but in use I would consider it to be "medium fine". They informed me that it's almost impossible to compare across manufacturers, and across sizes within manufacturers. They also said the Kutzall performs like 230 grit sandpaper (contrary to the item description "for roughing and initial shaping").

I ended up getting one of the small Japanese mill cut files and find it quite aggressive (almost grabby) but leaving a very smooth surface.

All very confusing I find without actually putting rasp to wood.
Jim B

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20144&cat=1,42524
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20133&cat=1,42524
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=52116&cat=1,42524
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=63451&cat=1,42524

[David Weaver]

I am not a high-dollar rasp kind of guy, because I can get by with other stuff. I have the hand cut rasps you have in your link, the foreign ones with the black handles. I think they work well, but they do cut pretty deep. That is an advantage to me because I use them with tools more than furniture, and the slightly more sparse teeth with a deep cut is handy on really hard wood.

Instead of going to fine grained rasps beyond that (with the exception of the gramercy rasp, which is pretty fine), I just use simonds metal files and milled tooth files, and sand after that if needed.

I find the half round of those hand cut rasps to be nice to use. The full round is a bit rough for what I do, but it may just be me and the amount of stock I need to remove. I use a coarse double-cut simonds file for that instead.

Someone last year was selling US made simonds metal files on the peebay for $4-$8 each, which makes them a decent option for the budget minded.

I also have a nicholson 50 - for tool work, to me, it's worthless. If I built a lot of furniture, I might think about paying for a few good quality french rasps after I knew what I'd like to make, what radius I'd want, the grain of the rasp and a preferred size.

[Prashun Patel]

I've built a few Maloof-style pieces, and if I had to have just ONE tool, it'd be a coarse rasp. Not only does it excel in rapid stock removal, by skewing and altering the angle of incidence, in some cases it does a superior job of fairing curves than does a spokeshave.

Also, Maloof furniture has a lot of 'soft lines' and curves that flow in 2 dimensions. To tweak and form these just right, I find no better tool.

Shaping tools, however, are highly a matter of personal preference; others may swear by their shaves or ROS's or specialty planes.

[Scott Stafford]

For the past twenty or so years I've used Nicholson 49 and 50 rasps and been happy. But maybe I should try one or two or three... I digress. Maybe I should try these new rasps. My question is where do the 49 and 50 fit in grain rating?

Scott in Montana

[David Weaver]

Do you feel like the 49 and 50 float a little and don't dig in? I feel like the new imported 50 that I got a few years ago doesn't dig in, and the finish doesn't match the size of the teeth. The teeth are dense and tall, not particularly sharp feeling, and they almost look like fingernails.

The hand cut rasps that LV has (the inexpensive ones) will dig to full depth of the teeth very quickly if you want them to, they really have a feel of "chewing" the wood rather than skimming across the surface.

Might be obligatory that any new nicholson tool should go to boggs tool and get an abrasive bath to sharpen the teeth. I am not impressed with anything I've seen from the cooper nicholson line in quite a while, and I don't get any response from the company when I ask a question on their web form.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Scott:

My Brazil 49 seems to be around an Auriou 8 [I have a 7]. My USA 50 is around an Auriou 10 [I have the 11].

But - that's not apples-to-apples. The Auriou 11 removes stock faster than the 50, and leaves a smoother surface. Two different breed of cats.

I like how I bracketed the Nicholsons with the Aurious - turned out well- it was as much a guess as science - I stood at the Highland display and removed most of the skin from both thumb tips as I was deciding.. I still use my $10 Ace Hardware hogging rasp when I need to bludgeon something, but there is always an Auriou 4 or 5 or so..............So - don't kid yourself that you will get one top-notch rasp. You won't stop there.

Plus - I just used a cheapo rough riffler to finish the edges of some elongated holes.........there's a whole 'nother display of modeler's rasps at Highland, and my thumb's have healed................

[Chris Griggs]

I kinda wish I had gotten one of those inexpensive LVs instead of my new Nicholson 49. The Nicholson works reasonably well... well enough that if I didn't know of other options out there I'd probably be perfectly happy with it. However, it does seem like it should be cutting faster for it's coarseness. Based on Dave's experience with the LVs, I think I probably paid an extra $20 for a lesser quality tool.

For me, the Nicholson wasn't a bad purchase - it does get used and does a its job, but based on everything I've read about the Dragon Rasps and the inexpensive LVs I am convinced that there are superior options out there for the money.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Might be obligatory that any new nicholson tool should go to boggs tool and get an abrasive bath to sharpen the teeth..

Better yet - that's where I bought my Brazil 49...

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've been thinking of adding some nicer rasps to my toolbox after using the Gramercy handle makers rasp and being sold on what a nice rasps can accomplish. I'm still holding off, because I don't need any just yet, but I did write an email to TFWW, asking them what they recommended as a good start in their rasps.

This is what Ben from TFWW wrote back:



I almost always reccomend beginning with an 11TPI by 9 1/4" and a 25TPI by 5". For me, that's the perfect combo for shaping the workpiece quickly, and then refining the shape down to a surface ready for final sanding or scraping. The 8" modellers rasp (25TPI) is a good addition the above pair, especially if you do smaller detailing in your wood working, or pierced carvings etc. I rarely use my rat tail rasp, although on the few occasions I have, it's shape was indispensable.

In Auriou an equivalent pair would be Grain 13 (similar to 25TPI) and Grain 7 (similar to 11TPI).

[john brenton]

I try to use edge tools as much as possible, and base design on that somewhat, so I rarely use rasps, but when I do I have an old very coarse tooth antique that really cuts fast, and then I have a smoothing file from Austria. I think the name is Boudin, or something like that. It was very cheap. I bought it at Woodzone in Columbia, South Carolina, which is usually outrageously overpriced. We're talking price differences anywhere from $50-$100 on some items compared to Lee Valley or Highland.

But yeah, the file was about $10-15, and has been a good one. I would check out ebay or antique shops for a coarse rasp. I see them around quite a bit.

[Scott Stafford]

Thanks Kent!

I bought a box of 49's and a box of 50's when our local copper refinery/smelter shut down in the 80's. Well, more correctly I bought them from a retired smelter worker who was having a garage sale after the smelter shut down. I did note that the boxes were both stamped Anaconda Copper Mining Company; none the less, I bought them for $5 per file still wrapped. By the looks of other things he had for sale, he may have been a pattern maker for the company.

I've used them quite a bit over the years and still have half of them still in the original wrappers. I've always read that these were pretty much the standards and hadn't considered looking for better rasps until the last few years when rasps has been in the headlines.

It sounds to me like I shouldn't try to buy rasps to compliment the grain of my Nicholsons, but instead replace my Nicholsons with two of the new superior rasps.


Scott in Montana

[Jim Koepke]

It sounds to me like I shouldn't try to buy rasps to compliment the grain of my Nicholsons, but instead replace my Nicholsons with two of the new superior rasps.

Send my the old Nicholsons if you take that route.

My thought is you should get something in a different cut than the Nicholsons. Then if you decide the new rasps are that much better that you have to replace the Nicholsons, PM me for my address.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

Nah - you can do what I did - kinda fill in the gaps. You've got the good'uns - USA made. I was just tryin to 'splain that there is not a direct one-to-one correlation on the grain of the two different products, IMO. There are also a lotta other great products out there besides the Aurious, but I have no experience with them, so I'm not qualified to compare and contrast on that subject.

I was very happy with my Nicholson's for a number of years, and then I drove off the cliff. I am still very happy with them..........but I've got a new girl to dance with, ya know? I use the Nicholson's a lot, especially for rougher wood and such, and then the Auriou for better wood, finer work..........I'll quit babying them pretty soon.

In the meantime,,,,,,wanna chance to double your $ on a pair of Nicholson's? Actually - two pair.....one for my inventory and one for a friend................:D...I've been trying to come up with a Christmas present for him..............


EDIT: Ooops....typed too slow, and Obi-Wan Koepke snuck in before my post. Ignore him - he's got way to much stuff already...............:D :D

[Zahid Naqvi]

I too use the Japanese mill cut files, as well as a US made large mill cut file. In my opinion they are better than any rasp I have tried, cut more aggressively than any rasp and leave a much smoother surface, plus you can control the degree of cut by your hand pressure. I use them to make saw handles, I am sure you will agree they have a lot of tight rounded corners and I never felt under equipped. Microplanes are also very good in quick stock removal, although less flexible. for long flowing curves like those of a chair or table leg, there is nothing like a spoke shave.
On the other hand I observed Sam Malouf at work when he was visiting my neck of the woods and he could not work with anything except the Nicholson 49/50. We must have given him 5 or six different rasps (including the Aurios) but everything felt awkward in his hands, as soon as someone offered a 49 he was right at home. The key is personal comfort. If you have an opportunity try out a few things do so, and then stick with the ones that feel comfortable in your hands. All the options presented above are really good at what they do.

[Noel Liogier]

I posed a question to Lee Valley customer service a few weeks back asking about the grain rating of the various rasps they handle.

Comparing rasps of different brands is indeed not an easy thing to do.

One cannot only say a rasp of brand X with a stitching grain of n°2 is equivalent to a rasp of brand Y with a stitching grain of n°6.
To make it simple, you have at least to compare two things : the bite and the obtained smoothness (just like Kent a Bathurst started to do above)

For example, machine-made rasps usually comes in 3 stitching grains : 1 for bastard, 2 for second-cut and 3 for smooth. To make a simple example, you could say that the n°2 machine-made rasp of brand X is equivalent to a hand-stitched rasp of brand Y with the n°12 when comparing the bite, and the n°5 when comparing the smoothness of the obtained surface.

But that is a (too) simple way to compare two rasps, one could also compare : the shape (most rasps are truncated, ie not being tapered until the tip, which eliminates a lot of possible use of it), the stitching area (are the teeth done until the very edges, very important too), the longevity, the gobal balance of the tool (its "comfort"), the ergonomy of the handle, … I will stop here not to confuse everybody more.

[Bob Lang]

I think the best approach when adopting a tool that's new to you is to get one only, rather than a set, and start using it. Pick one that's in the middle of the pack for size and grain and get to work. That experience will quickly tell you what should be next. If it's a good tool, you'll develop the judgement you need to decide what works best for you. When we first got the Auriou rasps in the Popular Woodworking Magazine shop a few years ago, we all thought they were a huge improvement over what we had, but some of us wanted ones that were coarser and larger, and some of us wanted smaller and finer. We all ended up with a bunch or rasps, but different bunches that suited each of us.

I don't think you can make a bad choice with any of Noel's rasps, or with one of the Aurious. It's like musical instruments, you have to start with something decent to learn to play. When my son wanted to learn to play the guitar, I got him one that was inexpensive but playable. That minimized the risk in case it turned out to be something that was merely a passing fancy. Things clicked with him, and he now owns several pretty nice instruments. They aren't the ones I would have picked for him, but they suit him perfectly.

Bob Lang

[Noel Liogier]

What Bob Lang just wrote and what I answer to new-comers to the world of quality rasps exactly match, as you can read here (http://www.liogier-france.fr/f-a-q-hand-cut-rasps?lang=en).

[Bob Lang]

Grands esprits se rencontrent

Bob Lang

[Prashun Patel]

I was just thinking that, Bob... ;)

[Scott Stafford]

Well, tis the season. But I think I'll hang onto them. Then again, I haven't worn out the first ones yet. Lost one once so I had to open up a second one, but I found it eventually when I swept.

But thanks for the offer!

Scott in Montana

[glenn bradley]

Also, Maloof furniture has a lot of 'soft lines' and curves that flow in 2 dimensions. To tweak and form these just right, I find no better tool.

Shaping tools, however, are highly a matter of personal preference; others may swear by their shaves or ROS's or specialty planes.

In my experience (which is not your experience and YMMV) I very much agree with Prashun. Having acquired a commonly available Nicholson #49 I immediately found it indispensable for Maloof-styled pieces and also reach for it for G&G-styled work. I am looking to expand my rasp arsenal but, am still educating myself a bit more before committing to a relatively expensive purchase. Understanding that they are not handcut, anyone tried the Pferd's?

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

Wow, there is a wealth of information here in all these excellent replies!I have some record 151 spoke shaves for gentle curves but for some reason I feel that I will prefer a rasp after I get one in my hand. I now have lots to consider; thanks for the great responses.