Shop Electrical

[Bob Johnson2]

Wondering how folks have wired their shops, as in hiring electricians or doing it yourself, and if you went the legal route with permits.

[Brad Olson]

At the very least I'd consider doing it yourself. I did mine myself and really honed my wiring skills. I had previously been certified to do barn wiring back home and this was my first foray into installing a sub-panel. I asked a lot of questions and spent a lot of time learning the new NEC requirements (I was trained on 96 NEC, and Michigan requires 99 NEC, but I wired to to most recent NEC).

JUST REALIZE, what you don't pay in $$ you WILL spend in time reading up on codes, but in the future if you have an electrical issue you can fix and trouble shoot it yourself.

I also took the opportunity to fix a lot of improper things in my service panel, I took out double taps and installed additional breaker for the double taps. I also put all my neutral wires underneath one screw and doubled up a few ground wires instead (NEC says grounds can be doubled, but not neutrals).

I also found that several breaker taps had worked loosse and so I tightened those up to the proper torque.

I also now am confortable enough, that I am going to install AFI breakers on the living quarter circuits and install GFI breakers on the kitchen receptacle circuits to enhance the safety of the electrical system

I'd pull a permit if it is reasonable. My sub-panel permit was about $380, but other places are much better about cost.

Why did I do it myself?

Because I know I did a better job than most electricians that I could afford would do. Simple things like twisting wires before putting them in wirenuts, taping all wirenuts and wrapping all receptacles with electrical tape to prevent accidental shorting on the sides. In addition it allowed me to put higher grade receptacles and fixtures in than would normally be put in at my price point.

Based on the estimates I got for the job I saved about $2500 in cash (based on the lowest estimate) and as much at $4500 (based on the highest estimate)

[John Bush]

I buried conduit ~120ft from the house panel to the shop sub-panel pulled the wire thru, had an electrician friend hook up the main panel and the sub panel and I did the rest. I bartered for his time and passed inspection with the county. I had a ball doing it, saved some $$$, and everything works. Oh yeh, I lived thru it too!.

[jim mckee]

Permits arent always required.

My county doesnt require one (except for new construction hook up to pole)

[Frank Pellow]

I planed my installation and got a lot of help from folks at Saw Mill Creek (in particular Rob Russell). See the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8251

I did about half the work myself but got very efficient help from my friend Mario who is an electrician. I spent about 3 times as much time as Mario on the job and we accomplished the same amount.

Whether or not permits are required, I am a firm believer that you should get one. At all the inspections that I had for my shop, both the regular "building" and "electrical" kind, I recieved good advice (and compliments) from the inspectores. And, if you are subcontracting any work, the inspections protect YOU.

[Rob Russell]

[Rant On]

Doing your own electrical work can be fun, rewarding and save a lot of money. It can also be deadly, both to you and your family, if you don't know what you're doing and/or won't learn what the "right" way is to wire things up.

Having said that, I have to agree with the comment Jim Mckee (McKee?) made about permits. You'd be surprised at the variance in how strictly localities enforce the electrical code. As Jim noted, some areas don't require a permit except perhaps for hooking up to the power grid. Some areas require permits for substantial work, but won't bother you for something small like swapping a receptacle. My area is like that. Some areas want a permit for any work - period. Some areas won't let a homeowner work on their own house, you must be a licensed electrician. There was a poster from an area in Maryland that ran into that. It is also true that the code as adopted varies from area to area. Many areas follow the NEC, or a modified version of the NEC (CT is one of the latter with state modifications to the code). Some areas have some really strict codes. Chicago is an example, where everything has to be run in conduit - even residential. No NM cable (aka "Romex") is allowed there.

As far as work that we as DIY'ers being "better" than what a professional electrician does, that may or may not be true. There has been a lot of discussion about pre-twisting wires before applying a wire nut and whether that's following the manufacturers instructions. Taping wire nuts shouldn't be needed and just leaves sticky wires when you need to open up a connection. I agree with taping a receptacle in a metal box. There's no real need to do that in a plastic box and we're back to the sticky residue problem, although if all your connections are pigtailed you'll never need to open up the receptacle connections anyway.

There are little things we DIYers need to be careful about - like over hammering NM staples or overtorquing the screws on breaker terminals. Did you know that there are torque specs for that screw? It's on the side of the breaker.

[Rant Off]

I'll be the first to attempt it myself when it comes to electrical. I'll also back off for on things I think are better left to a pro. I completely wired our addition and my new shop and get compliments from the inspector on the work. I hired an electrician to do our 100 to 200 amp service upgrade because 1) I'd never done one before and 2) I wanted it done in 1 day - not the 2+ it would have taken me to figure things out the first time around and my wife would not have been amused with our 'frig being shutdown for more than a day.

Rob

[Jeff Sudmeier]

In the past we have hired an electrician to do that and run from the meter to the main box, as that is what needs inspecting. It costs about $50 more to have them put in the main box, so we just have them do it. After that we run everything. Never have had the inspector have us fix anything and we have had about 6-7 different inspectors come check us out on different projects.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I designed and installed the entire 200 amp service for my new shop. I NEVER do anything without a permit and I never do work that doesn't meet code. While code specifications may seem overly strict, the code is there primarily for the consumer's protection. Like Rob, I got compliments from the inspectors on the quality of work I do. The electrical inspector even asked me when he finished the electrical inspection if I was going to take the licensing test to become an electrician. I'd already taken some spare #4 wire and bonded the gas lines within the shop without being asked. Of course, having worked on electronics equipments for over 30 years (from radar to MR scanners) gives me an inside view. I'm not electrician but electronics technician (job description - service engineer). I don't mind doing something right once......but just once. Whether it was re-trussing the 650 sq.ft. carport roof in place.....replacing the header on the same carport roof....it's always cheaper and easier to do it right the first time. As Rob said, with electrical your life depends on a good job.

Always to code and always with a permit.

[Jim Becker]

Unfortunately the poll didn't allow for how the work was distributed--I voted "me without a permit", but... I had an electrical firm put in the new 200a service to the building from the house (as well as increasing the main service to 400a) a few years ago. No permit was needed by my township (they only bust "you know whats" on plumbing) but an inspection was required. I did end up digging the 100' trench with my small backhoe (first time using it, too) as the rental machine the electrician brought kicked the bucket about four feet into the job. That was the hire out part. All other wiring in the shop was done by me, previous to that service upgrade, and since.

BTW, the reason for the 200 amp service is to allow for increased needs in the future when the upstairs of the building gets finished and there is a heat pump involved. There was no cost difference from 150 amp in the three bids, so I just went with the 200 amp distribution from the start.

[Tyler Howell]

A Lot of good advice here. Behind every code/rule is an injury, law suit, or death. Following all the rules and the permit process is a PITA but worth it. After 30 years of cleaning up other peoples messes including the results of mistakes I strongly recommend pulling a permit and having "The Man OR Woman" give you the thumbs up on your work.

[Jim Becker]

Pursuant to Tyler's advice, if a permit is not required (as is the case in my township), an inspection is still a good idea to insure you are compliant with code.

[Dan Gill]

Extension cords from ONE outlet. I need very badly to wire my shop.

[Alan Mikkelsen]

I live in an area where permits are not required.

[Bill Grumbine]

I clikced on "did it myself without a permit" as that is the closest I can get to how it all transpired. Our township requires a permit for the service only, which we had done by a licensed electrician. After that I can do whatever I want, and many people do. :eek: I prefer to do things according to code as long as it makes sense to me. I understand that everything in the code is there for a reason, but some reasons are not necessarily good ones. Try putting an outlet 18" off the floor in a solid stone wall - or even on a stone wall!

Now, having written all that, I am in the position of swapping some turning time for some wiring help from an electrician. So far he has helped me install some better lights for the shop, and in the near future we will be wiring a new circuit for the Mini Max combo machine, which now shares a plug with the Poolewood - by share I mean either one or the other is plugged in, and that is generally not a problem, since there is only one of me in the shop. Anyway, the good news is, my electrician buddy has not seen the need to correct anything I have already done, not counting some things I want to redo already.

Bill

[Dennis Peacock]

I voted "did it myself without a permit". With over 400 houses, dozens of businesses and a couple of "explosive proof" wiring jobs, I felt that I could do my own wiring just fine. This used to be my only line of making a living and I worked for and under a licensed electrical company. You'd also be surprised at some of the electrical "messes" I've seen over the years of what some homeowners did trying to fix a problem or run a circuit from an existing circuit.

Always have your work checked by a license electrician if you can. It's alot safer for your shop, home and family that way.

[Steven Wilson]

First I became familiar with the permit and inspection process required in my locality and then followed that process. I had an Electrician purchase, install, and have inspected the subpanel I use in the shop. The actual cost was not much more than the materials involved and he can obtain materials cheaper than I. Since I was present when he performed the work, I figure his hourly rate as money well spent. For the branch circuits, I pulled the permits, wired the circuits, and had them inspected. The inspector complimented me on my work and told me a couple of things I could do in the future to work smarter.

[Brad Olson]

As far as work that we as DIY'ers being "better" than what a professional electrician does, that may or may not be true. There has been a lot of discussion about pre-twisting wires before applying a wire nut and whether that's following the manufacturers instructions. Taping wire nuts shouldn't be needed and just leaves sticky wires when you need to open up a connection. I agree with taping a receptacle in a metal box. There's no real need to do that in a plastic box and we're back to the sticky residue problem, although if all your connections are pigtailed you'll never need to open up the receptacle connections anyway.

AFAIK, twisting wires before putting them in nuts is absolutely required otherwise the connection will losen up and cause shorting or voltage drop. I can't remember if this is NEC, but the nuts I use require it since that is how they are UL listed.

In my old house, the electrician didn't twist the wires and after 20 years we were always having problems with receptacles going dead because of wire nuts just plain coming off, or the connection loosening and then cooroding betweeen the wires. I think we had 8 receptacles do this and one of them would have eventually burned the house down, since the side of the receptacle box was burned badly. As far as any work that goes into a house of mine, the wires MUST be twisted before putting them into a nut. If the nut doesn't require twisting then that nut doesn't go into my house. I have sometimes seen the crimp syle nuts and in my opinion these are just asking for disaster. I look at the nut as a cover and the twist connection should be the strenth of the connection. You need to make the connection such that is can survive heating and cooling between load and non-load situations, and untwisted wires make it easier for a connection to work itself loose. With a nutted twisted connection, you have both the nut and the twist itself holding the wires together. Add tape to the nut and you have essential tripple protection against the connection loosening.

As far as taping nuts and receptacles, this was how I learned it and how I will always do it. When I took classes on this, the Master electrician emphasized how important this is, especially in harsh environments. Receptacles should last many years and thus the tape residue is a moot point. If you are changing receptacles more than this, then they weren't installed correctly in the first place and even then, if I replace the receptacle, then the nut is just going to be re-taped again. Also I can only think of a few situations where a pigtail wouldn't be used (e.g. GFI parallel to the circuit). No pigtails = PITA later on.

Taping nuts and around the receptacle prevents the nut from coming off and also prevents accidental shorting of the ground wire to either the side of the receptacle or a loose nut. Basically, I do things better than required for safety. Some things may seem double redundant, but then I am know the be AR about things that will kill me or burn my house down, I never rely on "shouldn't do this" I rely on "it won't do this".

As far as DIYers, they usually they fall into two classes. Those that jerry-rig things and those that do very professional jobs. Very few DIYers seem to fall in between.

[Bob Johnson2]

Guess I should have expalined further but this is my first try at a poll.

Over the years I've done a few electrical projects on the house, all small, and none inspected. Actually I didn't even think about such as they were small jobs, you know a light here and there etc.
The area I'm using for a shop I've been building canoes in for years and hung a bunch of lights and a few outlets, a good clean job but I have no idea if it's code, probably not as I'm not familiar with it. I've been an electronics tech for 30 years so I do have a good respect for electricity and have even seen god once, in one of my rookie years. Or at least I felt that way after the flash cleared from my eyes.
I do want to wire up the shop myself, and would like to do it offically, with a permit. I have 2 licensed electricians that work for me so I can get all the free advise I want and the cost is only $60 for a premit so that doesn't matter. I guess I'm just put off by the permit/inspection business. I suppose if I explain to the inspector what I've already done he'll tell me if I should rip it out and start from scratch so it's legal.
After reading these posts I'll go talk to the inspector and see where I can dig up a copy of the codes and do some reading. Better safe then sorry, it's in the basement so if the shop burns, so do I.

Thanks Guys.

[Russ Massery]

My best friend is an electrician I did the gofer work he did both of my shops. Also got me to change over all my machines to 220v.We did it without a permit.

[Rob Russell]

AFAIK, twisting wires before putting them in nuts is absolutely required otherwise the connection will losen up and cause shorting or voltage drop. I can't remember if this is NEC, but the nuts I use require it since that is how they are UL listed.

In my old house, the electrician didn't twist the wires and after 20 years we were always having problems with receptacles going dead because of wire nuts just plain coming off, or the connection loosening and then cooroding betweeen the wires. I think we had 8 receptacles do this and one of them would have eventually burned the house down, since the side of the receptacle box was burned badly. As far as any work that goes into a house of mine, the wires MUST be twisted before putting them into a nut. If the nut doesn't require twisting then that nut doesn't go into my house. I have sometimes seen the crimp syle nuts and in my opinion these are just asking for disaster. I look at the nut as a cover and the twist connection should be the strenth of the connection. You need to make the connection such that is can survive heating and cooling between load and non-load situations, and untwisted wires make it easier for a connection to work itself loose. With a nutted twisted connection, you have both the nut and the twist itself holding the wires together. Add tape to the nut and you have essential tripple protection against the connection loosening.

As far as taping nuts and receptacles, this was how I learned it and how I will always do it. When I took classes on this, the Master electrician emphasized how important this is, especially in harsh environments. Receptacles should last many years and thus the tape residue is a moot point. If you are changing receptacles more than this, then they weren't installed correctly in the first place and even then, if I replace the receptacle, then the nut is just going to be re-taped again. Also I can only think of a few situations where a pigtail wouldn't be used (e.g. GFI parallel to the circuit). No pigtails = PITA later on.

Taping nuts and around the receptacle prevents the nut from coming off and also prevents accidental shorting of the ground wire to either the side of the receptacle or a loose nut. Basically, I do things better than required for safety. Some things may seem double redundant, but then I am know the be AR about things that will kill me or burn my house down, I never rely on "shouldn't do this" I rely on "it won't do this".

As far as DIYers, they usually they fall into two classes. Those that jerry-rig things and those that do very professional jobs. Very few DIYers seem to fall in between.

There is nothing anywhere in the NEC that requires pretwisting of connections. Having said that, if the installation instructions for a specific brand of wire nut require pretwisting, the NEC does state that the manufacturer's installation instructions are to be followed. I would like to know what brand of wire nuts you use that require pretwisting.

I do agree that there are times when pretwisting helps, like a connection with a lot of wires. I also tend to pretwist. The real clue is to give the nut a tug when you're done - it should be firmly on and if it's loose you'll feel it.

[Jim Andrew]

My county does not require inspections, and I like it that way. The county
seat here has the most obnoxious inspection department in this area. I have
done building there for 28 years. I did my own wiring, but went over my
plan with my neighbor, an electrician. He installed my panel, and I did the
rest. Jim
Oh, if you want to pay them, the inspection department will do inspections
in the county, you have to pay mileage along with the regular fees.

[Tom Peterson]

our town requires permits, but the homeowner can do their own work. Doubles fines and a proctol for an inspection if you do not pull a permit. I have done most of my own work with permits. (it's not that much money for the peace of mind)The contractors complain about the inspectors, but they are very helpful and patient with questions for the unknowing.