Building the 21-st century workbench with a L-shaped tail vise?

[Zach England]

Is there any reason not to do this?

[Mike Allen1010]

Zach,

Thanks to all the ideas related to workbenches here on the Creek, I'm in the process of designing/building my own workbench (currently have some 4" x 6" Doug Fir leg stock drying in the garage.

This is just personal preference, but I'm not a huge fan of the L-shaped end vice. I know others will disagree, but as a strictly hand tool guy, I frequently find myself flattening larger panels, etc. for casework. For this task, I prefer a full width end vice, with two rows of bench dog holes that allows for four-point clamping on the surface of the bench. I find this easier for planning diagonally/across the grain for initially flattening the panels.

Also, I work on all four sides of my bench, and when I encounter reversing grain, sometimes it's easier to walk to the other side of the bench and playing towards the end vice, rather than reorienting/re-clamping the stock.

Good luck with your bench. Would love to see pictures as you progress.

All the best,
Mike

[Zach England]

Do you have a thread for your bench? I am trying to gather as much info as I can. The "bench" I have now is essentially a heavy work table I built before I was interested in hand tools. Later I added a pre-fabricated maple top, a face vise and a poorly-installed end vise. It mostly works ok for my current needs, but I think I am ready to graduate to a big boy bench, but am having trouble wading through the agonizing choices. I think a full-width end vise would not work very well in my situation since it would be difficult for me to utilize both sides of the bench due to space constraints. The reason i am attracted to the L-shape or a wagon vise is to firmly clamp long panels without excessive force, because with the end vise I have now if I want a long panel to be firmly clamped the vise either hangs out 4 inches (the distance between my dog holes), causing it to not feel firm and solid, or to put a "shim" on one end of the work piece. I can correct the "loose" feeling by cranking the vise down, but it takes so much pressure that it will mar the end of the panel or cause it to bend slightly. Does that make sense? Maybe I need to post some pictures to get better feedback.

[Gary Curtis]

There have been some long discussions on bench design here on this forum. Sometimes, not always, people describe what woodworking procedure would require certain designs or hardware. It is a deep subject.

[Mike Allen1010]

Zack,

I don't have a thread for my workbench build as I am still in the planning/lumber acquisition phase, and candidly there are tons of outstanding threads here in the Creek related to workbenches.

I'm sure you've already know this, but Chris Schwarz has two excellent workbench books. His most recent, I think called "workbench design", was particularly helpful for me. It has descriptions/construction notes for about 13 different bench styles.

I especially like comments from the users after each bench describing what they would do differently if they would do it again.

Mike

[Joe Fabbri]

Zach,

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm preparing for my bench build, collecting lumber, etc. at the moment. I have some old 4x6 pressure treated beams for the legs. I'm leaning toward a trestle style bench, using the pressure treated for the base, and probably doug fir for the top. What style bench are you considering, Zack? And what material, do you think?

As far as the vise goes, I originally didn't want a tail vise, or at least, not the traditional L-shaped. I then started looking into the traditional wooden designs, using guides, rather than the pre-made tail vise equipement. It's a little involved, in so far as you probably have to have everything dead on exact for it to function right. But, I think I could handle it. The only aspect that makes me a little uneasy still is having a sizable section of the bench that's not solid.

I'm interested in hearing other people's opinion about this as well. From what I've read, you can't beat having a traditional tail vise. For me, I'm interested in being able to clamp long stock to plane, for instance, moldings. That's one type of work I'm considering. I don't think a regular shooting board is good enough for this, but maybe a simple face vise at the end of the bench is good enough. I don't know.

[Zach England]

I will use ash or hickory or a combination of the two because that is what is available and inexpensive here. I am leaning towards either the 21st century or holzapfel or a combination of the two. I already have Veritas face and tail vices and would prefer to use them to keep the cost of the project down. The benchcrafted hardware just isn't in my budget.


Zach,

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm preparing for my bench build, collecting lumber, etc. at the moment. I have some old 4x6 pressure treated beams for the legs. I'm leaning toward a trestle style bench, using the pressure treated for the base, and probably doug fir for the top. What style bench are you considering, Zack? And what material, do you think?

As far as the vise goes, I originally didn't want a tail vise, or at least, not the traditional L-shaped. I then started looking into the traditional wooden designs, using guides, rather than the pre-made tail vise equipement. It's a little involved, in so far as you probably have to have everything dead on exact for it to function right. But, I think I could handle it. The only aspect that makes me a little uneasy still is having a sizable section of the bench that's not solid.

I'm interested in hearing other people's opinion about this as well. From what I've read, you can't beat having a traditional tail vise. For me, I'm interested in being able to clamp long stock to plane, for instance, moldings. That's one type of work I'm considering. I don't think a regular shooting board is good enough for this, but maybe a simple face vise at the end of the bench is good enough. I don't know.

[Jim Koepke]

Building the 21-st century workbench with a L-shaped tail vise?

Is there any reason not to do this?

In my reading there have been comments about such vises sagging or the L part getting snapped off under clamping pressure.

Your comments about having to crank the vise hard enough as to mar the work seems that something isn't working properly. It is not likely to be corrected by changing the kind of device that provides the clamping force.

If it is caused by going across the grain of the panel being worked, then you may need to have a row of dogs along the side away from where you stand to prevent lateral movement of your work piece.

From my experience using two very simple vises on my bench, it seems simple is better.

I am trying to figure a way I can install a wagon vise and retain my standard vise. It may be that the wagon vise idea is dropped.

jtk

[Zach England]

The wagon vise is starting to sound more and more appealing, if for no other reason than its simplicity. The more I look at the L-shaped tail vise the more I am wondering if the joinery involved is beyond my skill set. I don't want to cut corners on this bench, but at the same time I need to be practical about my abilities and budget.

[Zach England]

In my reading there have been comments about such vises sagging or the L part getting snapped off under clamping pressure.

Your comments about having to crank the vise hard enough as to mar the work seems that something isn't working properly. It is not likely to be corrected by changing the kind of device that provides the clamping force.

If it is caused by going across the grain of the panel being worked, then you may need to have a row of dogs along the side away from where you stand to prevent lateral movement of your work piece.

From my experience using two very simple vises on my bench, it seems simple is better.

I am trying to figure a way I can install a wagon vise and retain my standard vise. It may be that the wagon vise idea is dropped.

jtk

There is something not working properly. The vise sags when taken out more than about two inches and the way the clamping board is positioned it rotates a little bit with the direction of the screw.

[Joe Fabbri]

I also was attracted to the simplicity of the wagon vise, and also the idea of having a solid corner of the workbench still.

The only aspect that bothers me a bit is having the vise screw stick out past the bench, when not in the clamped position. I know some have modified the typical screws (such as the Lee Valley tail vise screw) by machining a groove for a garter, etc. I don't think I'd be able to do that easily myself, since I don't have any the necessary equipment, I don't think. Maybe there is an easy way around this that I don't know about. If so, I'd like to hear it, because other than that, the wagon vise seems like a good alternative.

[Zach England]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the vise screw sticking out".


I also was attracted to the simplicity of the wagon vise, and also the idea of having a solid corner of the workbench still.



The only aspect that bothers me a bit is having the vise screw stick out past the bench, when not in the clamped position. I know some have modified the typical screws (such as the Lee Valley tail vise screw) by machining a groove for a garter, etc. I don't think I'd be able to do that easily myself, since I don't have any the necessary equipment, I don't think. Maybe there is an easy way around this that I don't know about. If so, I'd like to hear it, because other than that, the wagon vise seems like a good alternative.

[Jerome Hanby]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the vise screw sticking out".

If you do not have a garter holding the shaft of the vise screw on the crank end and the threaded "nut" part attached to the vise jaw, then you have to attach that "nut" to the workbench body and have the inside end of the threaded shaft be attached to the jaw. If that last arrangement, you crank the threaded shaft farther out of the end of the workbench when you open the vise.

[Zach England]

I have never seen one installed like that. I will have to look at the vise I have and see if it works like that. All the ones I have seen have the screw fixed.

[Jim Koepke]

The only aspect that bothers me a bit is having the vise screw stick out past the bench, when not in the clamped position.

(And from a later post)

If you do not have a garter holding the shaft of the vise screw on the crank end and the threaded "nut" part attached to the vise jaw, then you have to attach that "nut" to the workbench body and have the inside end of the threaded shaft be attached to the jaw. If that last arrangement, you crank the threaded shaft farther out of the end of the workbench when you open the vise.

My thoughts on a wagon vise would be to have the threaded shaft stationary and the wagon has a nut, or two, inside to ride the threads.

That is how I was thinking of making one with a removable crank handle so it could have two different vises on the tail of the bench.


There is something not working properly. The vise sags when taken out more than about two inches and the way the clamping board is positioned it rotates a little bit with the direction of the screw.

Without knowing more it is not possible to trouble shoot what is happening. I know my tail vise has a loose nut that needs to be remounted. I am hoping to just remove it all together and use it on my next bench. Yours may have some loose hardware or the guides may be worn.

jtk

[Zach England]

Honestly I am not inclined to make that vise work any better on my bench. I just want it to work well enough to be able to build a new bench.

[Jim Koepke]

Honestly I am not inclined to make that vise work any better on my bench. I just want it to work well enough to be able to build a new bench.

My curiosity always gets to me. Knowing what causes the problem can help to prevent it in the future.

At least that is what I tell my wife when she wonders why I spend time on such things.:D

jtk

[Jerome Hanby]

I have never seen one installed like that. I will have to look at the vise I have and see if it works like that. All the ones I have seen have the screw fixed.

Same here, that was just the only way I could see it being mounted where the threaded shaft would be "sticking out".

[Jay Maiers]

Below is a list of stuff I ordered from McMaster. My intention is to build a wagon vise in my new bench.
I used 3/4-6 left hand Acme threaded rod for the screw, some bronze bushings and thrust bearings at either end for support, and two piece clamp collars instead of machined garters. The mock-up worked pretty well, but only time will tell if the clamp collars hold everything in place. If that does not work, I will pull the threaded shaft and grind a couple areas down, and then pick up a new pair of collars in a smaller diameter.

BTW, the left hand thread allows me to turn the screw in a typical clockwise fashion, sliding the dog block towards the other end of the bench. If you use a standard thread, you'll have to spin it counter-clockwise to tighten things up.

Since I'm building my new bench top here at my office, I've got the entire setup out in the shop. I'm still a day or two out from test fitting the assembly, but I should be able to snap a couple of semi-coherent photos.

91808A109 Plain Steel General Purpose Acme Hex Nut, Left-Hand, 3/4"-6 Acme Size (x1)

98935A449 Plain Steel General Purpose Acme Threaded Rod, Left Hand, 3/4"-6 Acme Size, 3' Length (x1)

5906K518 SAE 841 Bronze Thrust Bearing, for 3/4" Shaft Diameter, 1-1/4" OD, 1/8" Thick (x2)

6436K16 Two-Piece Clamp-on Shaft Collar, Steel, 3/4" Bore, 1-1/2" OD, 1/2" Width (x2)

2938T23 SAE 863 Bronze Flanged-Sleeve Bearing, for 3/4" Shaft Diameter, 1" OD X 3/4" L X 1-1/4" Flange OD ((x4) 2 for the bench, and 2 for the dog block)


ETA: the total cost of the hardware came in around $50 before shipping; a very reasonable $5 UPS charge from their warehouse west of Atlanta.

[Gary Curtis]

While rummaging around on mfgr. sites offering vise hardware, I had the feeling they were gouging. You know, $300+ for Benchcrafted Wagon Vise assembly. I just read Jay's note (immediately above) and remembered the name of McMaster-Carr.

A real dose of reality. Large diameter Acme threaded screw stock runs over $130 for a 12" section. A platform nut (shaped like a T) runs about $100. Who would have guessed?

[Jay Maiers]

While rummaging around on mfgr. sites offering vise hardware, I had the feeling they were gouging. You know, $300+ for Benchcrafted Wagon Vise assembly. I just read Jay's note (immediately above) and remembered the name of McMaster-Carr.

A real dose of reality. Large diameter Acme threaded screw stock runs over $130 for a 12" section. A platform nut (shaped like a T) runs about $100. Who would have guessed?

Having (finally) handled a Benchcrafted vise, I can tell you for a fact that he is not gouging anyone. It's an absolutely magnificent piece of work in both form and function. If I had the money, I'd buy it in a heatbeat.