Veritas bench accessories

[Mike Holbrook]

I am about to build a Rubo bench in conjunction with my redesign of my shop to accommodate my growing interest in hand tools. I am especially interested in the Rubo designs that reduce the need for complicated space eating vises. I am thinking in terms of a bench with movable accessories & jigs as opposed to fixed ones. The main bench design would use a crochet and sliding dead man on the side and dog holes and bench jigs/accessories on the top. I like the idea of being able to use the same accessories in the same holes in the top & sides of the bench. I have two Gramercy Hold Fasts. I am studying all the bench accessories Lee Valley offers in an effort to find the best movable devises to clamp work. I am looking for smaller more flexible jigs/fixtures that do not permanently occupy space on the edges of my bench, particularly the ends & corners of the bench. I am most interested in devices that are designed to work in the 3/4" round holes I plan to use on the top & sides of my bench. I am planing to build a Moxon type vise as my main/only? vise, as it can be attached and removed quickly as needed.

I am interested in hearing any & all testimony regarding the effectiveness and utility of the various Veritas bench accessories or any other bench accessories that will work in 3/4" holes or clamped to the edge/side/top of a bench.

[Jim Matthews]

Not to monopolize responses, here are two observations that might be buried in the other thread -

The surface clamps are VERY versatile, and I use them frequently.
On the occasions I would use a bench blade, a 3/4" dowel will frequently suffice. (You do need to wax those, for removal.)

I'm on the fence about the bench pups - they can get me out of a jam holding flat stock, but so can a simple twin screw clamp.
I really like the inset vise, but it required nearly 1" excavation of my benchtop. I had to grind down a large screw holding the lumber together.

It's not terribly expensive, but I'm not sure it's any more useful than a Bench pup (which only needs a 3/4" hole).
Two bench pups in parallel holes would emulate most of what this vise can do. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.)

Just to be clear about my opinion on the Moxxon and hardware - it's is THE most useful tool in my shop, and worthy of the best mechanism you can afford.
(The Pipe clamps I currently use are fiddly, and slow to open.)

Lastly, about boring holes. The best method I've seen uses a beefy router and a 3/4" upcut spiral bit. It generates lots of debris, but it's really straight.
Some things are better done by powered machines, and rows of holes is one.

[Trevor Walsh]

I agree with the moxon wholeheartedly. Hold fasts will hold things like 2" square legs vertical for sawing dovetail sockets for a drawer frame, or on the top for mortising. I disagree however that a router is better for the dog holes. It's about 30 minutes of work with a 10" sweep brace with nice big chips to cleanup. Rather than an expensive 3/4" spiral with a 1/2 shank. I'd also consider top thickness when determining how to cut the 3/4 dogs. I did a search for 3/4" diameter spirals, the longest depth of cut on a 3/4" shank was 2 1/2". If you're planning on a 3 or 4 inch thick top that's an awfully large bit with a huge extension and plunge depth, now spin it at 20k RPMs. Over at the Logan Cabinet Shop, Rob has a video during his bench build about drilling dog holes. Do a few practice ones on the back legs of the bench before moving onto the front and top.

[Zach England]

Anyone used these:
214715
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=59754&cat=1,41637

?

[Trevor Walsh]

No but that might be good for a situation where your effort might pull a round pin out of the hole. Like this jewelry sawing notch...
214797

Compaired to some jigs that just need to resist movement perpendicular to the dog hole I think those are overkill and more effort to screw and unscrew, but where forces are parallel to the dog they seem useful, or for bolting a vise (like machinist style vise) they could be good.

[Mike Holbrook]

I'm not sure what advantage the Bench Anchor, Zach mentions above, has over just using a hold fast or surface clamp to hold the same jig in place? Obviously the Bench Anchor is low profile but simply making the jig contact surface longer might provide ample space to place the clamping devise out of harms way.

I wonder if anyone has tried the Surface Vise LV offers? It looks like it would offer much the same utility as a tail vise. I'm not sure if the longer threaded area on this devise would provide an advantage over: Wonder Dog/Pup or a set of Veritas Pups. I guess it would depend on the distance between holes in the bench in question for one thing. I like the idea of a quick adjustment, by passing the threaded rod. It also looks easy to set the swivel arm off the end of the bench so it is easier to use. The limiting factor of this devise seems to me to be the 3/4" height of the jaw. I could attach a tapered wood face to the jaw that would allow for surface planing without any obstruction at the end of the work piece though. All of these devises appear to offer a low profile method of securing a work piece against some sort of stop.

[Maurice Ungaro]

The surface vise looks great as a retro fit, but it's travel is very limited, like 4", or smaller. This means you need to space your dog holes like, what, 3 1/2" apart?

[jamie shard]

+1 on drilling the 3/4" bench holes with a brace/bit. Very simple, works great.

The 3/4 holes are great for bench pups and holdfasts. I wouldn't worry too much about tail clamps/surface vice/wonder dogs. It seems like 99% of the holding I do is:

1) against a planing stop (sometimes with a holdfast, too),

2) in a twin screw clamp held in place against a planing stop (sometimes a holdfast, too)

3) held in a vice/clamped to the front for dovetailing (a moxon would be even better)

4) in a twin screw held in a vice for odd angle work.


Hope that helps!

[Mike Holbrook]

Can anyone link to a picture of this "twin screw" that has been mentioned. I'm not sure I know what this is. Sounds similar to the LV Surface Vise.

[Gary Curtis]

You can see a writeup and video on Twin Screw Moxon devices at www.benchcrafted.com

[jamie shard]

Just to be clear. when I say twin screw... I mean the old Jorgenson Handscrew-style clamp. I use Moxon to mean the thing with the two flat boards for holding panels. (http://www.closegrain.com/2011/07/building-moxon-double-screw-vise.html)

[Joey Chavez]

Buy Christopher Schwartz's Workbench book. I got it for Christmas and have already finished it. Takes you through all the vise options and best uses. Helped me a lot, I will be building a Roubo as well.

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi Joey, I have The Workbench, How to Design or Modify a Bench for Efficient Use DVD. I have found it very useful. I have Hand Tool Essentials too and Chris has a section on building a Roubo in it too. My initial selection of Veritas bench accessories is suppose to arrive via UPS today: Tail-Vise Screw (used to make a leg vise in my case), Single 1-1/8" Handle (for leg/tail vise), Wonder Dog, Surface Clamp, Hold-Down Clamp, Pr 4-3/8" Bench Dogs, Pr Dog Muzzles, 1-1/4. I may buy more of a couple items later. I also plan to order the Benchcrafted hardware for a Moxon vise. I plan on making a Moxon similar to Derek Cohen's plans, but with the Benchcrafted hardware. I will make Derek's accessory table too so I will end up with something like a bench on bench. I am hoping Hardwoods Atlanta is open today so I can talk to them about some wood.

I decided on a Roubo design similar to Benchcrafted's Split Top Roubo. I plan to use a slanted leg vise with dead man and the Moxon as my two vises.

[Steve Branam]

I like the Veritas Wonder Dog with Pup. It makes a great, versatile substitute for an end vise. I built Schwarz's Roubo, with leg vise, crochet, planing stop, and deadman, and use Gramercy holdfasts. The leg vise, holdfasts, and planing stop (sometimes with battens) get constant use, the deadman occasional use, and the crochet (which I made removable) no use.

I also built both a bench-on-bench using veneer press screws for the double front-vise, and a Moxon vise using threaded wood screws. They both do an excellent job of holding pieces upright for working on the end, but in general I much prefer the b-o-b. The veneer press screws are much faster than the threaded wood screws (so maybe a Moxon using them would be good), but the real difference is the added elevated work surface of the b-o-b. That makes it much more versatile. It makes a huge difference in working comfort for my back.

[Greg Wease]

The surface vise looks great as a retro fit, but it's travel is very limited, like 4", or smaller. This means you need to space your dog holes like, what, 3 1/2" apart?

There are two positions for the pin so the dog hole spacing is more like 7". Mine are spaced 6" apart and I can definitely recommend the surface vise.

[Jerome Hanby]

If nothing else it makes for a smaller footprint. Don't need the room around one side to clear the holdfast...


I'm not sure what advantage the Bench Anchor, Zach mentions above, has over just using a hold fast or surface clamp to hold the same jig in place? Obviously the Bench Anchor is low profile but simply making the jig contact surface longer might provide ample space to place the clamping devise out of harms way.
.

[Mike Holbrook]

Dang Greg, I could not get anyone to speak up for the Surface Vise so I ordered a Wonder Dog. The Surface Vise has that interesting quick-release feature. I figured it would either be great or slip and be a PITA. The Surface Vise had the magnet too and I was not sure how that would work practically speaking so I just went with what seemed more popular and safer.

Steve are you using the Wonder Dog with a Bench Pup (dog)? Maybe you mean you have a Wonder Dog and a Wonder Pup that you use together?

Steve I am very interested in your comments about which devices you find most useful. I guess the leg vise precludes any need for the crochet?

Steve,regarding the Moxon vs Bench on Bench. It sounds like you like the faster acting veneer press screws over the wooden screws? I am thinking about Benchcrafted screws with wheels that I believe are even an order of magnitude faster than the veneer press screws, so maybe I am on the right track in terms of ease of use? In regard to work height, it seems that your BOB is higher than your Moxon? The Derek Cohen Moxon I was thinking about is sort of like a BOB as Derek made a second piece, kinda like a table at the height of the top of the Moxon. With the detached table one can move the work support as far out as needed to support longer work. It sounds like a Moxon built to the height of a BOB with a matching movable table might be even more versatile?

Regarding the deadman, I am wondering if it is worth the trouble? Maybe just some stand or work support? I don't want to spend a bunch of time building something that will just be in the way most of the time.

I am hoping an insert in the split top bench will provide a work/planing stop in either direction on my work surface, so I want need some sort of bench anchor... I could also have an insert for holding tools, remove the stop to have more places for clamps...

[Steve Branam]

I'm using the long Wonder Dog with short Bench Pups.

Yes, I've found that I don't bother with the crochet because I always have the leg vise. I could unscrew the leg vise and rely on the crochet for some operations, but the leg vise is far more useful; meanwhile sometimes the crochet gets in the way of pieces in the leg vise.

The deadman is worth it, because it's one of those things where when you need it, you need it. I'll clamp up one end of a board in the leg vise, then slip a holdfast in one of the deadman holes to rest the other end on. Occasionally I need to use the holdfast in the deadman to actually hold the piece against the bench front edge, such as for a wider panel. There have also been a couple of times where I clamped a piece directly to the deadman. So the leg vise and deadman make a versatile combination.

Regarding the Moxon, the Benchcrafted screws would probably be about the same speed as the veneer press screws, except that they allow you to give them a spin and let momentum wind them. My BOB is higher than my Moxon, but that's just a matter of how tall you make the base (I made my BOB base removable so I could swap it with a lower one). Looking at Derek's and the Benchcrafted site, I think you're right that a matching movable table would be even more versatile. Maybe one that could drop into the Moxon, trivially easy to make. I should do that, it'll give me a lower-height work surface than the BOB. I'll also add Derek's dowel handles, because he's right, the big fat round ones are kind of annoying (he appears to have used the same threading kit I did).

[Jack Curtis]

...The deadman is worth it, because it's one of those things where when you need it, you need it. I'll clamp up one end of a board in the leg vise, then slip a holdfast in one of the deadman holes to rest the other end on. Occasionally I need to use the holdfast in the deadman to actually hold the piece against the bench front edge, such as for a wider panel. There have also been a couple of times where I clamped a piece directly to the deadman. So the leg vise and deadman make a versatile combination....

How thick is your deadman? And how much is recessed into its bench groove?

Thanks,
Jack

[Steve Branam]

How thick is your deadman? And how much is recessed into its bench groove?

My deadman is 1 1/4" thick, which is two layers of the 5/8" SYP stock I had laminated together. The tongue is 9/16" thick by 1 3/8" long, fitting into a groove that is 5/8" wide by 1 1/16" deep. That just allows me to slip the deadman in or out over the lower rail. In place, 1/2" of the tongue sits in the groove, leaving 7/8" clearance between the bottom edge of the bench top and the shoulder of the tongue. All measurements taken from the actual as-built piece with my small Starrett rule.

I could have made the shoulder of the tongue a little higher (making for a shorter tongue) and everything still would have fit, but there would be no benefit, so might as well allow plenty of clearance. This is starting to get some close tolerances for big chunks of pine, and things have to be able to slide freely in all humidity conditions. When building it, make the tongue long, then trim it last after everything else until it fits.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, Steve. It had never occurred to me to try to use a holdfast in a deadman, thus the question. Now I know the required metrics.

Jack