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Mac McQuinn
12-03-2011, 12:11 AM
I'm looking to upgrade my present Espresso machine and have been talking to a distributor about water requirements. He stated I need to be right at 2-3 Grains and after checking, the water department's city water system is providing a moderately hard 6.5-7 Grain product. Distributor also mentioned I need to get rid of chlorine as it affects the overall espresso taste. Feeling our water is actually pretty good overall at the tap, I'm at a loss for what is considered a good filtration/softener system as I've never had the need for one before. Anyone have any suggestions on a system or method to get 2-3 grain product w/o Chlorine?

Mac

Lee Schierer
12-03-2011, 5:48 AM
Getting rid of the chlorine is easy. Put the water in an open container over night and the chlorine should be gone. I used to do this for tropical fish. I can't help you on the hardness part.

Anthony Whitesell
12-03-2011, 7:44 AM
Grains are a rough measurement. It takes a combination of items into effect simultaneously (calcium, lime, and iron) and the scale is very course (like centigrade versus farenheit). The better thing to ask, if they have the answer, is what the limits od concentrations for calcium, lime, and iron they have. Then get your water tested at an actual lab. The lab will provide you real numbers. Then you can begin to research filter options.

David G Baker
12-03-2011, 8:53 AM
A reverse osmosis unit will do the trick and is cheaper than some of the other systems with the up front costs.

Matt Meiser
12-03-2011, 9:04 AM
There's a thread I started on RO systems here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?160402-Tell-me-about-reverse-osmosis-systems).

Its made a huge difference in how clean our coffee machines (espresso maker and Keurig) stay. And I got the one with a DI stage so we don't have to buy distilled water for my CPAP machine anymore either. AND, its tank stays cleaner than it did with store-bought distilled water, which makes me wonder about store bought distilled water.

Mac McQuinn
12-03-2011, 9:22 PM
I realize it's a rough measurement although seems to be the way Espresso machine distributors measure their requirements. If I'm not mistaken, water treatment Chemist said this grain figure was produced by parts per million divided by 17.5. Calcium and Lime scale seems to be the culprit in scaling up espresso machines which is what I want to avoid. I'd rather be proactive here w/ a good water supply rather than descale with a chemical.
Mac


Grains are a rough measurement. It takes a combination of items into effect simultaneously (calcium, lime, and iron) and the scale is very course (like centigrade versus farenheit). The better thing to ask, if they have the answer, is what the limits od concentrations for calcium, lime, and iron they have. Then get your water tested at an actual lab. The lab will provide you real numbers. Then you can begin to research filter options.

Mac McQuinn
12-03-2011, 9:25 PM
David,
Not sure although the RO system may actually do too good of a job removing minerals, I was warned to not use distilled water for this same reason.

Mac


A reverse osmosis unit will do the trick and is cheaper than some of the other systems with the up front costs.

Mac McQuinn
12-03-2011, 9:29 PM
Lee,
WTP Chemist told me the same thing. I did not realize the Chlorine dissipates although she also mentioned the father out you live, the less Chlorine is in the water.
Mac


Getting rid of the chlorine is easy. Put the water in an open container over night and the chlorine should be gone. I used to do this for tropical fish. I can't help you on the hardness part.

Steve Costa
12-04-2011, 5:34 PM
Plus one on the RO system. We have a well that has a mid level iron and mineral content. We use a water softening system, iron filter and an RO system all supplied by Hague Quality Water. We have been using it for 8 years and aside from some normal maintenance we have yet to have a problem.
If all you are looking for is an RO system I suggest you talk with Hague about their system & what it costs.

Mac McQuinn
12-06-2011, 5:54 PM
I re-did the math on this and it appears PPM should be divided by 16.75 to get a reasonably accurate Grains count. I'm looking for a 3 Grain figure for my espresso machine, 50 PPM divided by 16.75 =2.985 Grains.
Mac


I realize it's a rough measurement although seems to be the way Espresso machine distributors measure their requirements. If I'm not mistaken, water treatment Chemist said this grain figure was produced by parts per million divided by 17.5. Calcium and Lime scale seems to be the culprit in scaling up espresso machines which is what I want to avoid. I'd rather be proactive here w/ a good water supply rather than descale with a chemical.
Mac

Anthony Whitesell
12-06-2011, 8:07 PM
Your math may be right. But the state certified lab I worked with years ago, said the same PPM of iron, calcium, or lime will not produce the same grain reading. IIRC, it takes much more iron than calcium than lime to make one grain (or it might be iron, lime, then calcium). In other words not all three create the same hardness for the same PPM. I know it takes the most iron (least effective to make water hard), but I don't remember which is the most effective (requiring the least PPM) to make the water hard, lime or calcium.

I'm lucky in that according to the samples from the lab I don't have hard water. Dissolved iron is detectable but not measurable, just enough lime to read, and a small amount of calcium. All the in house tests say I have hard water with 2-5 grains. I think the morale there is simple: Don't trust a salesman to tell you what you have.

What I do have in my water is clearwater (undissolved or particulate) iron. Not sand but actual iron. If you capture a piece and let it sit on a water piece of paper, the spot under it will turn brown. aka, rust.. I never checked, but I wonder if it is magnetic? hmmm. Should be.

Mac McQuinn
12-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Thanks for the additional information, at this point I believe I need a water analysis. I'm getting too many variables to base a large purchase on.


Thanks, Mac

Anthony Whitesell
12-07-2011, 5:43 AM
This is a bit hard to explain but I'll try. I was able to find cartridge style filters for the filter options I was looking at. Before buying a resuable system I purchased a large 4"x10" filter housing and one each of the filters. I installed the filter housing by installing a shutoff valve between two elbows that each had a shutoff valve. My system is plumbed as follows:

Well pressure tank
Main shut off
elbow - with the outlet connected to a valve with a male union
bypass shut off valve
elbow - with the outlet connected to a valve with a female union
then on to the rest of the house.

In short the filter housing is installed in a take out loop with a bypass valve. This allows me to run without the filter housing installed and with the unions, to quickly hook up whatever I want without shutting off the water to the rest of the house.

Mac McQuinn
12-07-2011, 4:02 PM
Sounds like a great system although my espresso machine is not directly plumbed in, it uses a reservoir tank. The test strips I've used are inconsistent w/ the WTP specs so in order to get something I can base a filtration/softening system on, I'll have to have a Analysis done. I'm hooked to Municipal water system, not a well system. I don't feel there is a iron problem although a thorough test will provide the facts.

Mac


This is a bit hard to explain but I'll try. I was able to find cartridge style filters for the filter options I was looking at. Before buying a resuable system I purchased a large 4"x10" filter housing and one each of the filters. I installed the filter housing by installing a shutoff valve between two elbows that each had a shutoff valve. My system is plumbed as follows:

Well pressure tank
Main shut off
elbow - with the outlet connected to a valve with a male union
bypass shut off valve
elbow - with the outlet connected to a valve with a female union
then on to the rest of the house.

In short the filter housing is installed in a take out loop with a bypass valve. This allows me to run without the filter housing installed and with the unions, to quickly hook up whatever I want without shutting off the water to the rest of the house.

Anthony Whitesell
12-07-2011, 4:10 PM
I forgot to mention the biggest advantage. Because of the pair of unions, I can also easily pipe in whatever large scale filtration system I may need down the road. With the small filters I tried four different filter medias and never spent more than $40. It allowed me to test both longevity and effectiveness. The filter I went with costs $40 each and lasts 6 months.

I suggest you check out ohio pure water systems website, they have many options and good descriptions of what the system is filtering. The biggest thing I found when working with this stuff is trying to find out what options are available. So check around to try to find as many systems as you can, to make sure you have the most effective for your problem. Water softeners and greensand systems are the most popular sale people, but there are many other systems out there. Make a list and check it twice.