Need some shaper tooling advice

[Mark Engel]

I recently acquired an older (1996) used Seco 3hp tilting spindle shaper.

So, all you shaper users. where do you buy your tooling and what brands and types of cutters do you use/recommend?

I'm thinking that I want to get an insert head and buy cutters for it as needed. Anyone have any experience with the CMT sets? Or Amana (although they seem a bit pricey).

How long do the HSS cutters last and how difficult are they to sharpen? Or, where do you get yours sharpened?

While we're at it, tell me everything you know about shapers. Seriously,

TIA.

[David Kumm]

Mark, My first shaper was the Seco 30 degree tilting shaper. I have big shapers now but the little seco really served me well. 3/4 and 1" spindles, decent fence. Smaller cutters are handled better, 3/4 rather than 1.25 generally. For smaller diameter cutters the 1.25 can be used though and you might want to go that route if you ever plan to get a larger shaper. If your first time shaping I would start out with regular brazed cutters for the profiles you will use most until you gain experience. Look for a mid sized feeder before you go too far down the road as well. For profiles that won't be used as much, any cheap Grizzly type will do. Cabinet doors and raised panels should get the better stuff, Freeborn, Freud, etc. Get plenty of practice before using larger or insert cutters and make a good crosscut sled for the cope cuts. The seco has an odd sized miter bar so stock units won't work. And don't forget to release the spindle lock- can't tell you how often i forgot that back then. Your post reminds me that my old one- about 1996 as well is sitting in storage and should probably be sold. Pretty good way to get into shaping at a low cost. Dave

[lowell holmes]

I have Rockwell (old), Amana, Infinity, and Woodworker's supply cutters for my old Rockwell shaper. I buy 1" bore bits with 3/4" inserts. I have no complaints with any of the cutters.

Infinity and Woodworkers Supply have pretty good prices.

[Peter Quinn]

For 3/4" tooling Infinity is a good mix of value and high quality IME. The Amana profile pro or the similar CMT sets of 40MM HSS inser knives are known generically as "Euro Blocks", at least in Europe anyway. There are a number of companies selling these sets, they cut quite well, you are limited to just over 5/8" depth of profile which is a nice match to a 3HP shaper. CMT and Amana are pretty similar in price on these, pick your color, same basic heads and the EXACT same knife selection. You can have custom knives ground too, I have yet to do so. I have made full size passage doors with this set no problem. Lots of molding and shaping options for little money, useful only for hardwood and soft wood, not MDF or exotics.

Amana also sells lots of industrial insert heads for different purposes, they also work very well and are comparatively cheap relative to other insert head options.

My favorite panel raiser? Freud RP2000. Almost every raised panel profile I like, one high quality razor sharp set of inert knives, you might start with just the head and add knives as you need them? Amana 3 wing braised heads are a good value for individual profiles.

There are corrugated back insert heads for larger molding profiles and greater depth of cut. These knives can go up to 3/8" thick steel and take a monster cut in a piece of wood. They are the custom molders industrial standard. A 2" or 3" tall corrugated back head can give you lots of options for shaping moldings, but that size shaper will have some limitations in terms of the size of knives it can spin. A multi pass approach could stretch the safe limits a bit. These heads are for experienced users, but its hard to get the specific experience of using one if you work along without actually using one. I have been trained by seasoned professionals and they still often scare the heck out of me, so tread cautiously there.

Most useful cutters I own? A 50MM X 125MM 4Z rabbit head with spurs. Garniga is my brand on that, but lots of people make them. Second is an adjustable slot cutter, insert head, 4Z plus spurs. Goes from 1/2" to 15/16", cuts wood like butter.

All the Freeborn stuff is great, you get what you pay for, question is do you need industrial tooling? A Garniga cabinet set costs upwards of $1500, you can buy a lot of doors for that price. If money is no object, you will have unlimited options. If money is an object, you can start with your favorite profile and see where that takes you.

Always check your set ups with the power off. CHeck that the head is tight on the spindle. Check that the knives don't hit the table. Check that the knives have clearance at the fence plates. Check the cutter rotation. Check that the fence is secure, tight and ready. Change ANYTHING, check EVERYTHING. Check that your hold downs are holding down. Check your power feed set up twice and pass a board with the shaper OFF before starting the machine. You cant over check. OCD is better than guy missing teeth and fingers or guy who just welded cutter head to spindle. It is way to easy to get excited and hit the green button before all is set. DON'T. Take your time. A shaper puts more steel to wood than any other machine in most shops and it wont tolerate any violations of its safe operating procedures. But used with skill it is one of the most powerful assets available for working wood. Be safe.

[Stephen Cherry]

Always check your set ups with the power off. CHeck that the head is tight on the spindle. Check that the knives don't hit the table. Check that the knives have clearance at the fence plates. Check the cutter rotation. Check that the fence is secure, tight and ready. Change ANYTHING, check EVERYTHING. Check that your hold downs are holding down. Check your power feed set up twice and pass a board with the shaper OFF before starting the machine. You cant over check. OCD is better than guy missing teeth and fingers or guy who just welded cutter head to spindle. It is way to easy to get excited and hit the green button before all is set. DON'T. Take your time. A shaper puts more steel to wood than any other machine in most shops and it wont tolerate any violations of its safe operating procedures. But used with skill it is one of the most powerful assets available for working wood. Be safe.

This is some great advice. When I operate my shaper I'm reminded of my time working around propeller aircraft. Lots of wind, and a shadow of a moving object that would liquify whatever it hits. No reason to be afraid or nervous, but you need to stay aware of what's happening at all times.

[Cary Falk]

I have only had my shaper for about a year. I have found that Infinity has some great sale prices. I have about 4 of their cutters. I have an Amanna router bit and it is top notch. I would expect their shaper cutters to be the same. I wouldn't hesitate to buy some Grizzly cutters for hobby use.

[david brum]

I have used the Amana/ CMT Profile pro head with great results for hobby use. There are tons of cutters to choose from, most around $20-25. They are great for profiles, picture frames, etc. They are awkward for joinery though, since everything is metric. I also don't think that the sets are a very good deal, since they come with a selection of cutters that you may not need. You can get a head for around $100 and just buy cutters as you need them. I have also used several of the basic carbide tipped Grizzly cutters. They are surprisingly sharp and cut great, also for hobby use. These are good for general joinery like tongue and groove, slot cutting, rabbets, etc. They are also nice for template cutting and use with a rub collar.

In terms of sharpening HSS cutters, I have sharpened the Profile Pro cutters using a Japanese stone, just lapping the back of the blade. It seems to restore the edge as long as there aren't nicks. It could probably be done with really fine grit sandpaper on a flat surface as well.

Again, this advice would be for hobby use. If you're doing commercial work, I'm sure you'll want some heavier duty cutters.

[Larry Edgerton]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;1820009Always check your set ups with the power off. CHeck that the head is tight on the spindle. Check that the knives don't hit the table. Check that the knives have clearance at the fence plates. Check the cutter rotation. Check that the fence is secure, tight and ready. Change ANYTHING, check EVERYTHING. Check that your hold downs are holding down. Check your power feed set up twice and pass a board with the shaper OFF before starting the machine. You cant over check. OCD is better than guy missing teeth and fingers or guy who just welded cutter head to spindle. It is way to easy to get excited and hit the green button before all is set. DON'T. Take your time. A shaper puts more steel to wood than any other machine in most shops and it wont tolerate any violations of its safe operating procedures. But used with skill it is one of the most powerful assets available for working wood. Be safe.[/QUOTE]

Excellent advice Peter. I go through the whole setup when I am done EVERY time after I think I am done. If I get distracted while doing this I do it again. \

Larry

[Mark Engel]

Great advice and recommendations. Thanks and keep them coming.

The shaper will be for hobbyist use only. Mostly for edge profiles, moldings, etc., until I get a feel for the machine and what it can do. I found one of the CMT sets on Amazon for about $138 which is only a few dollars more than the head alone. Even if I end up using only two of the included profiles I will be ahead of the game.

I have contacted Kufo/Seco and they still sell this model and have accessories for it. One thing I was considering was a sliding table. David mentioned a cross-cut sled and I thought that a sliding table and fence would work as well as a sled for narrow end grain cuts.

A power feeder will not be in the budget for a while unless I go with one of the 'baby' size units (1/8 hp) from Shop Fox or Grizzly. Not sure how useful those would be. For now I will have to rely on hold downs, feather boards, push sticks, etc. Would a sliding table be helpful in controlling the workpiece when making cuts without a feeder or would I be better off with the small feeder?

[david brum]

A power feeder will not be in the budget for a while unless I go with one of the 'baby' size units (1/8 hp) from Shop Fox or Grizzly. Not sure how useful those would be. For now I will have to rely on hold downs, feather boards, push sticks, etc. Would a sliding table be helpful in controlling the workpiece when making cuts without a feeder or would I be better off with the small feeder?

I have an 1/8hp baby feeder on my small 1 1/2hp shaper. It's a good match for that size, but I believe that it would be too small for a bigger shaper. As it is, it struggles unless I keep the table waxed. That said, a power feeder is really important for safety and quality of surface. You can easily make a coping sled out of plywood and some toggle clamps. I would spend the money on a power feeder rather than the sliding table. I do see them pop us occasionally on our local craigslist.

[David Kumm]

Yes the power feeder should be mandatory. It is very difficult to get consistent cuts without one and watching the cutters slide past your fingers is no fun. The seco does not come with the guarding that larger shapers have so the best guard is the feeder sitting between you and the cutter. Watch CL as $300-400 should get you what you need. Delay tooling and use the money for the feeder. Make your own coping sled as the one from seco will not be rigid enough to improve your life. Look at the aigner coping accessory and then google shaper accessories. I know there is a small company here in US that makes great coping accessories that are reasonably priced and index off the fence so you don't have to change settings between the cope and stick cuts. You will find that once you have the fence set correctly you won't want to move it to go back and forth. By the way, in 1996 that shaper was about $900. Dave

[Scott T Smith]

Yes the power feeder should be mandatory. It is very difficult to get consistent cuts without one and watching the cutters slide past your fingers is no fun.Dave

Mark, I second Dave's advice re the Power Feeder on the shaper. If it were me, I would set aside the budget for a good power feeder before I spent a lot of $ on cutters. Much safer, and better, IMO. You can find them used often on Craigslist or e-bay too.

[Mark Engel]

Guess I'll start saving for a power feeder.

Getting one on Ebay probably won't happen. Ebay has turned into just another on line store. I just looked for a power feeder there and got 60 hits, only one was an actual auction starting at $400.00. All the rest were buy it now.

Remember when Ebay used to have real auctions? :(

[TK Donovan]

Mark, there's a lot of good advice here and if you're not sold yet - get the power feeder first. I understand that everyone has different requirements and some people use their shapers for freehand guided work...but for edge work against the fence a power feeder should be standard equipment. I remember that I was always a little "afraid" of using the shaper before I understood that the power feeder makes it one of the safer tools in the shop. Your hands are nowhere near the cutters and the work is machined consistently.

I have several drawers full of cutters now and can recommend most styles have conform to the BG standard (Amana among many others). Some brands don't specifically conform to the standard but still have profiles that limit the chip size. Some universal heads don't have the chip limiters so extra care is required. One of the most versatile heads is the corrugated molder style. The heads aren't too expensive and come in many lengths to fit different spindles. Standard and custom knives are available from many online sources - I've used W Moore profiles with good results. I can also highly recommend Oella Saw and Tool. They're on ebay as well as their own site. They recycle industrial tooling but also can get any new tooling at good prices. I picked up some used Leitz raised panel cutters that I could never afford new - for 1/3 the price.

Shaper techniques are very individualized - but if you find a process that work for what you do, then write it down and refine it over time. This includes recording fence depth, spindle height and fence offset (and custom fence if used). For every profile I use, I have this information recorded along with the spacer size between cutters. Even if you can't reset everything perfectly, you'll be close and won't need many test cuts. For more information about shaping - check out the Woodweb forums. A lot of the discussion is more commercial oriented but there still good advice.

Once you get your power feeder - you should start another thread about how to set up the feeder for shaping door parts - that'll bring in LOTS of opinions! :)

TD

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, for safety and consistency you need a 1/2 HP feeder or larger on your shaper.

The insert heads with the 40mm HSS knives are great, you'll get 400 to 800 feet of profile without sharpening depending upon the wood.

Make sure you get a head marked "MAN" for manual feeding, in conformance with the European BG standard. That style of head is rated for manual feeding in a shaper.

A sliding table is nice, I have a 4 HP tilting spindle shaper with sliding table and a 1/2HP feeder, wonderful machine.

Another cutter that you'll want is an insert rebate head, 125mm X 50mm with scoring and hogging cutters, mine happens to be an OMAS however Felder have one on as a Christmas special, price is hard to beat. This style of cutter can be used for rebating as well as patern copying with a bearing guide ring.

Purchase The Spindle Moulder Handbook by Stephenson, it's the only modern shaper book I've seen...........Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Mark, keep in mind the weight of the cutters have to be within the capability of the machine. I used to use a 3" steel corregated back insert on my Seco and now just shudder that I didn't kill myself. It weighed about 5+lbs and is too much for the machine. Stay with cutters under 2 or 3 pounds. If you need to get into bigger cutters, get a bigger shaper. Those secos are fine if you don't get greedy and try to overload them. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

I have contacted Kufo/Seco and they still sell this model and have accessories for it. One thing I was considering was a sliding table. David mentioned a cross-cut sled and I thought that a sliding table and fence would work as well as a sled for narrow end grain cuts.

A power feeder will not be in the budget for a while unless I go with one of the 'baby' size units (1/8 hp) from Shop Fox or Grizzly. Not sure how useful those would be. For now I will have to rely on hold downs, feather boards, push sticks, etc. Would a sliding table be helpful in controlling the workpiece when making cuts without a feeder or would I be better off with the small feeder?

I'm not sure a sliding table attachment will be much use for most edge shaping operations. They are certainly no replacement for a feeder, and you are limited to the rather short stroke of the slider. Also there is no real way to clamp narrow stock securely to most sliding tables for long edge processing. I would skip the baby feeder and save for at least 1/4HP but preferably 1/2HP or greater.

The sliding tables are really for end grain work. I can't tell just how close the SECO slider gets you to the fence from the pictures on their site. I have found that some sliding tables leave you too far from the fence and cutter to really process the size of parts needed for most cabinet door rails, and it can actually be easier to use a good coping sled than set up the sliding table and fence for the operation, assuming you don't have a dedicated sliding shaper set up to do end grain work. I do like the sliding table for lots of things though. I just did a job with some banquette L's that had 22"X72" tops with an edge profile that wrapped the corners. It was easy to use the sliding table for shaping the short sides, would have been very difficult even with a feeder otherwise. For the same job I made some window stools with the end grain shaped. I had boards wide enough to rip three stools per board, ran the end grain, ran the two outer edges, ripped these off, ran the last. Real easy with the sliding table, much less easy otherwise.

[David Kumm]

The coping accessories I was thinking of but could not remember are Wynmatic. Try their website for videos and ideas. Dave

[Mark Engel]

Thanks again guys.

So I guess the sliding table is not such a great accessory. Getting parts and tooling that can be used with another machine, if I decide to move up, seems like a better way to go.

Power feeders with 1/2 to 1hp are up there in price, ~$700 - $1100+. I guess I'll have to keep my eyes and ears open for something used.

I looked at some coping sleds and the Woodpeckers design looks very versatile and at a pretty good price. Put that on my Amazon wish list.

I made a few test cuts today with a 1-1/2" radius round-over router bit and a big panel raising router bit, cutting some scrap 2x6 pine. Very nice, smooth cuts. I just ran the piece past the bit, against the fence, freehand, just like I have done on the router table. It did not feel at all unsafe.

[Ron Bontz]

To answer the original question. I used Infinity cutters when I did my kitchen cabinets on a 3 hp Delta X5. Good bang for the buck and 3/4" spindle size. I also use a CMT insert head for odds and ends. 3/4" bore also. It works very well. The rail and stile cutters matched up very well. I just wish it had three cutters instead of 2. I now have a 5 Hp shaper, still no power feeder since I don't do production work. I use Amana 1-1/4" bore cutters. The Amana cutters come with spacers which is nice. The other nice thing about shapers is all the options. Sometimes too many options. Best of luck.

[Mark Engel]

Thanks again for all the great help.

At this point the plan is to get a coping sled (probably the Woodpecker) and just get the individual cutters as needed instead of the insert head/cutters. I can use my larger router bits until I build up a set of shaper cutters.

A power feeder is going to have to be on hold unless I can get a used one for a decent price. I just can't see paying that much for hobby use. Having used a few big router bits, feeding stock by hand, I don't feel much of a safety difference with using the same bits in the router table. In fact, it feels safer to me. I'll learn more as I use the tool, but for right now, I don't really see the need for a power feeder.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks again for all the great help.

At this point the plan is to get a coping sled (probably the Woodpecker) and just get the individual cutters as needed instead of the insert head/cutters. I can use my larger router bits until I build up a set of shaper cutters.

A power feeder is going to have to be on hold unless I can get a used one for a decent price. I just can't see paying that much for hobby use. Having used a few big router bits, feeding stock by hand, I don't feel much of a safety difference with using the same bits in the router table. In fact, it feels safer to me. I'll learn more as I use the tool, but for right now, I don't really see the need for a power feeder.

Keep in mind that when using router bits on a shaper you should still treat them like router bits IMO. That means multiple passes for panel raisers and big cutters. The limiting factor is the 1/2" spindle which can twist under too much load even in a router. And you should still use good hold downs or feather boards for hand feed shaping. You can shape lots of things without a feeder with proper hold downs, but you really should stay away from the old three wing cutters for that and stick to the modern chip limiter style. The old style cutters can kick like a mule when they encounter something they don't like. I'm not sure how shapers behave with router bits, never tried it. I will tell you that with a big board I can actually stop or slow down my 3HP router in the table should things get weird just by leaning into it. The same is not true of a shaper.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks again for all the great help.

At this point the plan is to get a coping sled (probably the Woodpecker) and just get the individual cutters as needed instead of the insert head/cutters. I can use my larger router bits until I build up a set of shaper cutters.

A power feeder is going to have to be on hold unless I can get a used one for a decent price. I just can't see paying that much for hobby use. Having used a few big router bits, feeding stock by hand, I don't feel much of a safety difference with using the same bits in the router table. In fact, it feels safer to me. I'll learn more as I use the tool, but for right now, I don't really see the need for a power feeder.

Hi Mark, you won't actually be using the shaper until you put cutters in it, router bits aren't similar.

The shaper as you noticed has reversible spindle direction, which is wonderful to use as you can always go in the direction of the grain by flipping the cutter over and reversing rotation.

The best starting option for edge profiles in solid wood is to go with a head with 40mm insert HSS knives. They're inexpensive and the first time you use them in the shaper the light will go on. You won't believe the difference in performance and finish.

Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

I would not bother buying a coping sled if your on a tight budget. I have yet to see an aftermarket sled for a reasonable cost that was any better than an mdf sled with a couple toggle clamps. I have two of them, one for cabinet doors, another for interior doors and they will get you a long way for very little investment. Also IMHO they're safer as you can make them as big as your table will hold to keep the fingers even farther away from cutters.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Engel]

Thanks Jeff. That is a valid point on the budget.

What pulls me toward an aftermarket product is the reduction in the amount of time I have to use to 'build my own', and also the re-usability of the item being purchased. I'm sure I could build a coping sled for a few less dollars, but I sometimes feel like my time is better spent using a purchased tool to build something besides more tooling. If I decide down the road that working with a shaper is not my cup of tea, the coping sled I purchase can be easily used on a router table.

Just trying to do my part to pump up the economy. :)

[joe milana]

Heck mark, a coping sled can be nothing more than a square piece of mdf (say 12" x 12") with a scrap of wood for the fence. You dont even need the toggle clamps. JR even posted a picture of one once that allows you to use the power feeder that was just as simple.

[Carl Beckett]

There was a listing recently on the Boston area craigslist for a batch of used shaper cutters.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Jeff. That is a valid point on the budget.

What pulls me toward an aftermarket product is the reduction in the amount of time I have to use to 'build my own', and also the re-usability of the item being purchased. I'm sure I could build a coping sled for a few less dollars, but I sometimes feel like my time is better spent using a purchased tool to build something besides more tooling. If I decide down the road that working with a shaper is not my cup of tea, the coping sled I purchase can be easily used on a router table.

Just trying to do my part to pump up the economy. :)

I looked at some commercially available sleds, then bought about $35 worth of parts form my local wood craft and in 3-4 hours time I built one I feel is better than any I have seen for sale for under $200. If I billed at $200 per hour that would have been a bad deal, but I'm a professional wood worker, so I work cheap! Any way, my parts list included a 1/2" phenolic plate, a few destaco clamps, a few flange bolts, a piece of UHMW 3/8" X 3/4" for the runner, a few 1/4"-20 knobs to hold the flange bolts. Maybe a few other bolts here or there and some drops from the cutoff pile? I used a router on a trammel to make a slot so the fence can pivot to handle angled work, I used a T slot cutter to make a backer that can be trimmed and secured repeatedly on the fly, which is damned handy for tuning in fence set ups or refreshing the backer block on long coping runs. And I have seen what happens when some idiot forgets to secure the backer and lets it get sucked into the shaper fence when coping. Not that I'm that kind of idiot.....did I say this out loud? Oh yeah, always check that the coping sled backer is secured! PDAMHIK

Anyway, you can certainly buy a coping sled. Check out Weaver Sales for some of the best. Not the way to save any money but built for the shaper not a router table. Or check out archmastertool.com to see another fine professional product. Not that you have to buy something like those but I always like to see the BOB before moving backward to a position I can afford personally to evaluate all the options.

Worst case I have made countless doors, both cabinet and 1 3/4" using nothing more than a miter gauge and either a rub collar set up or a solid fence which has been plunged into the cutter to create a continuous bearing surface. Its one of the least comfortable and most unsafe ways I can personally think of, down right stupid. Not the most accurate thing either, but dirt cheap! In some shops safety is more of a foreign concept than a reality. Don't make it one in yours.