Want to invest in Japanese Bench Chisles

[Justin Chen]

After seeing everyone raving about the higher grade chisels I'm getting tired of my cheapy blue marples and want to invest in a few higher quality chisels. I'm leaning towards Japanese chisels and am looking at the lines at Hidatools since they are having a 10% discount. I've heard really good things about the Fujihiro brand but wanted to know if I'm getting that much better of a chisel than Hida's housebrand or even the Masashinge brand. Are these chisles the right place to start or should I look elsewhere?

[Wilbur Pan]

I can't speak to a comparison, but I just love my Fujihiro chisels. They are just great. The only downside to them is that their price has gone up quite a bit over the past few years due to the tanking dollar/yen exchange rate, so they are no longer as much of a bargain. They used to be price competitive with Lie-Nielsen chisels. Now they are about $8-10 more per chisel.

Having said that, knowing what I know now, I'd buy them all over again even at today's prices. And with the current 10% sale, the price is pretty close to what they were selling for a few years ago.

[Dave Burnard]

I'm also a big fan of Fujihiro chisels, they've been my working set for years and years.

[David Weaver]

For practical use, I've not seen much of a difference between all of my chisels. I don't generally have any that are really cheap aside from a few oddballs (like a 1.5mm cheap chisel). I have some mokume iyorois, which are a bit better than their dime store chisels, but they aren't quite as hard as some of my small-maker's chisels - one of which fujihiro (they are still harder than western chisels, though). In the end, between the two, I think I'd rather use the iyorois because they sharpen like a dream due to their backing material and still hold an edge very well (which apparently isn't always true in dime store japanese chisels). I guess what I'm saying is I would not opt for iyoroi chisels over fujihiro or other well respected small-volume makers in most cases, these are just from a batch that is made with more care than their usuals, and while they were relatively cheap when I got them, they aren't in general.

I've only been dissatisfied with two brands, one because the edge holding for its price and sharpenability isn't what I want, and another because the fit and finish isn't what it should've been for the price. If they come up, I'll point them out to you in a PM, but if not, there's no reason for me to pop the manufacturer with a permanent mark on this board - maybe it's just my chisels. Even the ones I don't like are decent chisels and hold a better sharp edge than any western chisels I have, there's just no reason to go there, though, because there are better for approximately the same price.

Before you decide to go entirely to japanese chisels, which you'll probably want to sharpen entirely by hand unless you have a wet grinder with a large stone (shallow hollow), buy one in a size you use a lot and use it. I spend more time sharpening my japanese bench chisels than western bench chisels when all is said and done, even if they hold an edge twice as long, and they don't have the reach of a western bench chisel, so if you really use your bench chisels as a do-all, keep them around in case you need the reach.

All of that said, and since you know fujihiro/imai are good chisels, I would stick with a maker someone on here recommends. The two that I can recommend in plain chisels right off the top of my head are the fujihiro/imai and the koyama-ichi (make sure the "ichi" is there if you're browsing, there is a big difference if it's missing). You know where to get fujihiro, and the sale takes a little sting out of the exchange rate. Stu Tierney carries koyama-ichi chisels, and LV carries their dovetail chisels (just something to remember, as they won't do you any good as bench chisels).

Ouchi chisels also have a great reputation, but I haven't seen them anywhere other than premium tool sellers, which adds unnecessarily to their cost. Stu- will we see those any time soon?

[Frank Drew]

Ouchi chisels also have a great reputation...

Well deserved, IMO. They're apparently very popular among working carpenters in Japan. No frills, no cosmetic embellishments, just very well-made workhorses.

I generally don't like buying sets of tools (or kitchen equipment, etc.), but I've used every chisel in the 10 pc. Ouichi (Oouichi, Ouchi, etc.) set I bought from a carpenter I worked with when he went back home. This was in 1980-81 and I got them for $100, a bargain even then, I think; he'd used them for only a few months. I put a ton of work on them over many years and was never disappointed.

I have no idea where you'd buy them, though.

[David Weaver]

Iida has a set for...

... sit down.

$1430 shipped here.

When I was looking around for chisels, I could get a set of 10 ouchi bench chisels for $800. I didn't, fujibato dumped my user set of mokume chisels with a paulownia box for $600 shipped. Maybe they are seconds, I don't know. They are not quite as tidy as the guys who make the show-bling chisels (these with white oak instead of ebony http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_bench/index_3.html), but they are almost magically easy sharpening and still reasonably hard. I would be disappointed with them for $1200 (assuming the ebony costs $200 or so above a white oak handle with the pith in the middle).

What has happened with the ouchi chisels is probably a combination of name recognition and the dollar vs. the yen, maybe in equal parts vs. when I looked at them.

No matter. I didn't need a whole set, and haven't used all of them, and there are still nicely priced good chisels like the fujihiro that can be gotten singly.

[Jorge Rico]

Justin,
I have both Fujihiro and Masashige brand bench chisels from Hida and have been quite happy with them. My preference would be for the Fujirio's, but its purely subjective because I like the rough forged look of the rings. I can't comment on how either compare to Hida's house brand, but will say that the Folks at Hida really know their products and never sold me anything that I later regretted. If you do decide to go with Japanese style chisels make sure you follow Hida's recommendations for securing the ring at the top of the handle. A loose ring is a real distraction.

Good luck.

[Stuart Tierney]

Ouchi chisels also have a great reputation, but I haven't seen them anywhere other than premium tool sellers, which adds unnecessarily to their cost. Stu- will we see those any time soon?

New year on Ouchi. You can't believe how happy he was when I put the 'hard word' on him. It's often a bit of a delicate thing approaching these guys, but Ouchi was a push over. :)

Nice guy, but my wife can't work him out.

I was trying desperately to stay OUT of this thread, because of the seriously obvious blatant economic interest.

(Nice to know who your friends are, thank Dave. ;) )


Jason,

There is a bit of a 'glass ceiling' when it comes to Japanese chisels. Once you get through that, you're usually very safe and the difference between them all is fit and finish, bling, cost and related to the $$$, reputation.

Below that level (and price is not a perfect indicator) and the chisels can be very good. They can be good enough that many users will have no trouble with them. But because there's a corner cut somewhere, the quality is usually where the cost-cutting rears it's ugly head. Edge won't last long enough, chipping steel, poor lamination, cheaper handle/hoop, etc, etc. All the way down to the very cheap stuff, which again can be good enough that many won't be able to notice.

But I think many people actually do notice what a cheaper Japanese chisel is actually like. Ever heard that Japanese chisels are brittle? I've heard it often, and it's thrown around often enough that it must be true, right? Problem is that a good, proper Japanese chisel in white steel is ferociously tough. You can't use one hard enough to really hurt it, not without abusing it completely. At that level of abuse, nearly any chisel will have problems, doesn't matter where it was made or what it's made from, abuse the chisel and it's going to bite you back.

And there in lies the difference between a good chisel and a not so good chisel. Many folks might not be able to tell the difference, but it's nice knowing that the chisel you're using is not going to turn around and bite you if you push it a little harder than normal.

I'm not going to go into which brands are and are not 'at this better level'. Every time I do that, egos get hurt and it always gets ugly.

But if I were you, I'd opt for the Fujihiro. At least I've actually laid eyes on them in a proper tool store here in Japan. The Masashige, I've never seen. This is more likely because I'm in South West Japan, and those two are made up North.

(The Fujihiro were in amongst a sea of Ouchi and Koyamaichi.)


If you need more detailed information, send me a PM please. I can't write much more than what I have above without getting into trouble with the rules here, because I do sell Japanese chisels, and do have a vested interest. Maybe that interest is only making sure that you get good, honest chisels, but still I might be overly persuasive...

Stu.

[Jack Curtis]

...But I think many people actually do notice what a cheaper Japanese chisel is actually like. Ever heard that Japanese chisels are brittle? I've heard it often, and it's thrown around often enough that it must be true, right? Problem is that a good, proper Japanese chisel in white steel is ferociously tough. You can't use one hard enough to really hurt it, not without abusing it completely. At that level of abuse, nearly any chisel will have problems, doesn't matter where it was made or what it's made from, abuse the chisel and it's going to bite you back....

Not much to disagree with here, generally speaking; however, there are the odd forging "variations" that allow a quality white steel chisel to snap, even when not abused. DAMHIKT

Jack

[Stuart Tierney]

Jack,

That is true. And speaking for myself only, that chisel would be replaced if the fault was with the chisel and it was from someone where that kind of 'defect' should not be tolerated.

It happens, it has happened. I've got a chisel in Niigata right now being 'tweaked' that's to replace a damaged chisel. If the original was defective, then the maker will cover it. If not, I'll cover it myself and 'buy' the damaged one for my own personal use and amusement. It's one of a set of 'top shelf' chisels, and the owner of it understands that these things happen and placed no fault on the chisel but at the same time was surprised it became damaged with what he was doing with it. Who knows? Either way he's getting his chisel replaced without spending any more money.

After the horror story I've recently been privy to, I'm glad I'm taking the above path whenever it's needed.

(Which is rare! I've been very, very lucky with defective tools and even with shipping. I can count on one hand the number of defective tools, but need to borrow a couple fingers on the other to count the shipping dramas. Only one finger counts the number of lost packages though so I figure I'm doing ok.)

Stu.

[Howard Pollack]

Hi- I have a Masashinge long handled paring chisel that I bought from Hida and it is one of my 2 or 3 favorite chisels, right up there with Kuneiki chisels. It gets sharp and stays that way. That said, I also use the Fujihiro chisels from Hida and have been pleased with them (the one exception is a small width chisel that bent while mortising with it).
-Howard

[Wilbur Pan]

If you need more detailed information, send me a PM please. I can't write much more than what I have above without getting into trouble with the rules here, because I do sell Japanese chisels, and do have a vested interest.

I don't sell anything, on the other hand, so I'd like to add this.

One of the reasons I went with Fujihiro chisels was that at the time they were the least expensive Japanese chisels that had no negative reviews from anyone. Stu sells a variety of chisels from Koyamaichi, and like the Fujihiros, I have never heard anyone say anything negative about these chisels, either. If I were in the market for Japanese chisels today, these would be on my short list. The only reason I don't have some of these is because when I was buying Japanese chisels, Stu wasn't in business at the time.

[Frank Drew]

Iida has a set for...

... sit down.

$1430 shipped here.



:eek: Yowza!!

[Jack Curtis]

That is true. And speaking for myself only, that chisel would be replaced if the fault was with the chisel and it was from someone where that kind of 'defect' should not be tolerated....

Yeah, that's what I thought, too; but I bought several Genju Funahiro chisels from Hida on a trip to CA. The 15mm mortise broke (clean, like a fault line) first time I tried to use it, actually the first stroke. Sent it back to Hida, they agreed it was defective; and I proceeded to wait for a replacement for 6 months. Finally accepted a Fujihiro replacement, which I should have bought to begin with. Of course, never did buy any more Funahiro anything.

Jack

[Jack Curtis]

...One of the reasons I went with Fujihiro chisels was that at the time they were the least expensive Japanese chisels that had no negative reviews from anyone. Stu sells a variety of chisels from Koyamaichi, and like the Fujihiros, I have never heard anyone say anything negative about these chisels, either. If I were in the market for Japanese chisels today, these would be on my short list. The only reason I don't have some of these is because when I was buying Japanese chisels, Stu wasn't in business at the time.

I agree that those two brands are very good, although I don't buy based on no negative reviews. I have to also say that Tasai are great chisels, although a little more difficult to find these days, have to go through a Japanese vendor (Tomohito Iida).

Jack

[jeff vanek]

whats the best bang for your buck with japanese chisels?

[Jack Curtis]

whats the best bang for your buck with japanese chisels?

Not to worry much about bangs for my bucks. I don't buy sets, though, except when they're very cheap on ebay or the like. I typically buy one or two chisels at a time as needed for a given task, and buy the best I can afford. Also, my first epiphany was that once I had all the paring and mortising and other speciality chisels I needed, I no longer needed a bunch of bench chisels; so I'd recommend getting a few parers and choppers to start, which ones dependent on what I wanted to do.

Jack

Jack

[jeff vanek]

Not to worry much about bangs for my bucks. I don't buy sets, though, except when they're very cheap on ebay or the like. I typically buy one or two chisels at a time as needed for a given task, and buy the best I can afford. Also, my first epiphany was that once I had all the paring and mortising and other speciality chisels I needed, I no longer needed a bunch of bench chisels; so I'd recommend getting a few parers and choppers to start, which ones dependent on what I wanted to do.

Jack

Jack


if you were to buy a set, whats the best bang for your buck?

[David Weaver]

A set for what? I think most people who buy 10-chisel sets of bench chisels and then go on to get dovetail chisels and parers find that they don't use all of their bench chisels.

Maybe not universally true, but I have several bench chisels I didn't need to buy.

Hard to say what the "best bang for your buck" is, but safe enough to say probably no woodworking magazine in the US is going to find the right answer (at least my opinion from experience) unless the set is magically offered by a big advertiser. Imagine how the call would go if a magazine chose one or two small manufacture very high quality chisels that came from an agent in japan. The readers would probably get peeved, too, if they couldn't immediately dial the phone and have a set coming UPS the next day.

Of the chisels I've used a lot that you can just go buy, I like koyama-ichi chisels, but I've had a lot of good chisels that I could get along fine with. I have a chisel from hida (one of the fujihiro chisels) that I use for a special purpose, but I haven't used enough to know what I know about koyama-ichi chisels. It appears to be similar, though, both in what it's made of and how it feels in use and on the stones. The price of the two probably isn't a lot different.

Go lower than those, and I think you're taking chances that what you get won't be at the same bar. That doesn't mean it won't, but I have seen varying accounts a lot of the other $50-$80 per chisel stuff. I've also used some chisels in those ranges and felt like for the price, I was sharpening more often than I should, or cleaning up things on a new chisel that I shouldn't have to clean up.

That doesn't mean you can't do good work with chisels a step below (or two or three), just that they're close enough in price, that it seems sensible to reward the guys who seem to make things a little bit better every single time.

Ouchi should by all accounts be in that category, but so few have experience with ouchi chisels because they're not easy to find here yet.

If the $70 per chisel range is out of your budget, then you can either go with reform grade chisels or take your chances on some used chisels. I think that's wiser than trying to draw the line $10 lower if that's your budget, and thinking that the experience will be linear with price - mine has not.

[Wilbur Pan]

I agree that those two brands are very good, although I don't buy based on no negative reviews.

Should have clarified: those were the least expensive chisels with lots of good reports and no negative ones on the market at the time. The Grizzly Japanese chisel set and the Matsumuras also had a number of good reports, and were less expensive than the Fujihiros, but there were people who had some negative experiences with them, which is why I took a pass on those.

I'd love to have some Tasais. Maybe one day.

[Wilbur Pan]

if you were to buy a set, whats the best bang for your buck?
You should also realize that for Japanese chisels, buying a set doesn't necessarily save you money. For the Fujihiro chisels that I have, buying a set of 10 is actually $88 more than buying the 10 chisels individually. The reason for this is that the set of 10 also gets you a nice wooden box, which you are charged for. That's another reason to buy chisels as you need them.

Regardless of which brand to start with, a decent set to start would probably be a 3mm, 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, 15mm, and 24mm sizes. That's six chisels, and those are the bench chisels that I seem to use most often. I do have a full set of bench chisels, and I rarely use the larger sizes.

[jeff vanek]

i was thinking about buying a set for someone for x-mas.....i understand that buying chisel sets are frowned upon on most woodworking forms....i didn't mean to open up a can of worms.

[Wilbur Pan]

If you want to buy a set of chisels for a Christmas present, that's great. I'd still stick with a relatively small set like I mentioned above, unless you want this to be a heck of a Christmas present.

[David Weaver]

i was thinking about buying a set for someone for x-mas.....i understand that buying chisel sets are frowned upon on most woodworking forms....i didn't mean to open up a can of worms.

Not by any means a huge deal. I've bought three sets, I kind of like them. I think if I bought again for myself (which is very unlikely short of theft or a house fire), I would probably get a set again.

I recognize it's not the most economical way to do things, but you can do whatever you want, it won't make anyone less of a woodworker to have a chisel set instead of a bunch of mismatched chisels.

Wilbur's advice is sound, though. if you don't know that someone would enjoy a big set, a small set is fine. I also don't use the big chisels except for once in a blue moon, and I don't need a chisel of their quality for what I do with them, which is never heavy work.

[Jack Curtis]

i was thinking about buying a set for someone for x-mas.....i understand that buying chisel sets are frowned upon on most woodworking forms....i didn't mean to open up a can of worms.

Hmmm, not to make a friend unhappy; but if your friend is close enough, you'd already know which Japanese chisels s/he would like. If not, maybe a gift certificate? Or wood? Or maybe a selection of chisels from various manufacturers for him/her to try? In my world chisels are very personal items.

Jack

[Frank Drew]

A set can be any number you choose; my very first chisels were a set of four from Craftsman.

I certainly wouldn't give a friend a set of 10, given what they cost these days; for that kind of money I wouldn't/couldn't buy a set of 10 for myself.

A single super nice chisel could be a heck of a present for someone who knew the deal with these tools; a set of three or four would be even more generous if that's within your budget.

[David Weaver]

I got a giggle this morning perusing around while drinking my coffee...

.. someone is selling what looks to be a pedestrian koyamaichi 15mm chisel on the auction place - and they want...

.. wait for it..

.. $141 for the chisel and $26+ to ship it

There could always be something I don't know about it, but the seller didn't do anything to express what that might be.

Best I can figure, you can get two of them for that and probably pay less to ship those two.

Goes along with the $175 funjii plane out there, too (a plane that sold for about $65 new from JWW).

Buyer beware!

[Stuart Tierney]

There could always be something I don't know about it, but the seller didn't do anything to express what that might be.

Best I can figure, you can get two of them for that and probably pay less to ship those two.


Buyer beware!

Tataki-hira-nomi. Like an Oire-nomi after a course at the gym and a bottle full of growth hormone. And danged near indestructible.

(Written in Japanese, in the description.)

But, if you saw those monsters I had specially made, each one of them cost less/the same as that one. And they were much, much bigger in overall size and 2-3 times wider.

But the tataki-hira-nomi as that one is, are not that expensive at all.

Wish them luck, and if they sell it at that price, umm...

What was the fee schedule on there again? ;)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Well, at least it's a timber chisel. Still coming up stiff on price, though!

Figure the guy will lose an extra 9% more than just the paypal fee schedule.

The buyer will still lose the most :)

[Sam Murdoch]

I am intent on upgrading my chisels and am especially intrigued by the Japanese tool making/ iron work tradition. As much as I tout to everyone buy American - and Lie Nielsen is right down the road - I am a sucker for owning at least a few serious Japanese chisels. Since this is an almost recent thread (and I have been reading and rereading Japanese chisel threads here for many hours + over quite a few days) please indulge me this very likely "beginner" question :confused: . How long can one resharpen a hollow back chisel before that hollow becomes an issue. I know such a question lends itself to a very subjective answer but for you folks who are very regularly using chisels is this something that needs to be addressed every 3 years - ten years - never in your life time? I get the purpose for the hollow, but on some photos of new chisels it appears that there may be less than an 1/8 "of steel behind the edge. Then what? Just wondering. Thank you for not laughing - or for at least being kind :).

Sam

[Jim Matthews]

If you're like most of us, there's sufficient steel to keep these sharp for your lifetime.

The hollow makes it easier to get the back edge flat, indefinitely.
I have a couple of ancient examples (probably from the 1930's) that are "stubbies" now, they've been sharpened so much.

The edge is still keen, and sharpens quickly.

FYI - Modern steel has some distinct advantages over laminated steel (corrosion resistance, toughness and very fine edge keenenness).

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Sam,

Forgive me if I get disjointed here.

The back hollow isn't a bowl shape, more a spoon shape, being shallower at the edge and getting deeper toward the neck. As a result, so long as the back only gets attention from the finer stones, as in a few quick licks at every sharpening, it should never need attention other than an occasional extra few licks to keep the flat area near the edge sufficient in size.

It's entirely possible to run the edge into the hollow as well. In that case, more work on the back.

You'll be able to read what's happening over time. If the hollow seems to be shrinking, do less work on the back and don't worry too much about it. If the hollow seems to be creeping into the edge, then do more work on the back.

But as Jim said, there's enough steel in any decent chisel to last a lifetime for most users. And if you do manage to work your way through a blade, I can bet you've got your money's worth out of it.

(That goes for any decent blade of any kind from anywhere.)


Stu.

[Sam Murdoch]

Thank you Jim and Stu. I'm convinced that the "spoon" back is not an issue. Discovered your site from reading these threads Stu. I hope to be getting a few chisels from you some day in the near future. Pretty excited about it. A lifetime of discovering new tools...:D

Sam

[Wilbur Pan]

How long can one resharpen a hollow back chisel before that hollow becomes an issue. I know such a question lends itself to a very subjective answer but for you folks who are very regularly using chisels is this something that needs to be addressed every 3 years - ten years - never in your life time?

I have a write up on how to deal with the hollow on Japanese chisels here (http://giantcypress.net/post/931326880/hatful-of-hollow).

[Sam Murdoch]

Wilbur, thank you very much. That is EXACTLY the answer to my question.
What a great resource is Saw Mill Creek and its members. Thanks!

[Jason Steward]

I have a small set of Nomikatsu chisels, made out of Hitachichi high speed steel (these are oire nomi style). They claim Rc 66. All I know is that they don't need sharpening very often. I have been using them for 8 months, and they spend very little time on the sharpening stones. At first I used them sparingly, but now they are my go to chisels.