Need Water Stone Opinion

[Justin Chen]

Well after getting into hand tools more and more and feel like investing some more money in a new water stone. Right now I have a combo generic japanese 800/4000 waterstone from Woodcraft and a Naniwa Super Stone 8000. I feel like I'm getting a pretty good edge with these stones but seems like I'm spending quite a bit of time on the 8000 grit. I'm wondering if I should buy another intermediate stone to start replacing the generic one or even buy another higher grit stone for an even better edge. What do you guys think?

[David Weaver]

I think your stones are probably plenty good for sharpening. The SS 8000 you have is a pretty good stone. The generic stone is likely some sort of soft aluminum oxide variant, with particles plenty hard to work well.

If you're not getting good edges and spending a lot of time on the 8k, you're either polishing too much metal or not preparing the edge with the earlier stones properly.

I would master that progression of stones before you buy any other stones.

[Jim Koepke]

How long have you been sharpening on water stones?
Did you use oil stones before water stones?
Scary sharp?

My thoughts go back to my own experience. When ever it seems like it is taking too long on the 8000 stone, or any stone for that matter, it always seems to be that enough time was not spent on the stone before.

If you do not have a guide, I would suggest one. Even though most of my sharpening is done free hand, a guide gets used occasionally. After all, guides are not known for dubbing an edge like an errant hand can do. Also, a guide is like training wheels and helps one to master the rigid hand angle needed to hand sharpen.

My suggestion for another stone would be either a 1000 or a 2000 grit to make sure you are getting the bevel fully prepared for the next higher stone.

I wouldn't use the 800 unless you have a nick to get rid of. Usually when I have to get rid of a nick, it is time for an abrasive sheet on granite.

jtk

[Russell Sansom]

I agree with Jim.
I'd say if you're putting in more than two or three strokes on the 8k, there's a problem.

[Justin Chen]

I spent a little time doing the scary sharp but quickly decided to go to water stones. I'm using the Veritas MKII guide for chisels and plane irons with occasional free hand sharpening. I try to gauge of progress between stones by the scratch pattern. I don't use the 800 much so maybe as Jim suggested I need a 1000-2000 grit stone to start (does 200 really make that big of a difference?). I do about 10-15 strokes on the 8000 but I could just be anal and over polishing as well.


Does the brand of stone for the lower grit stones matter as much as the higher grit ones?

[Dave Burnard]

I really like the basic wood-mounted Shapton 2000 grit stone, it cuts fast but uniformly so you don't spend all day polishing. A good middle stone like this can make a big difference in your sharpening.

[Stuart Tierney]

What you've already got should be good enough to get a very good edge from.

Just keep in mind the #800 builds the foundation, i.e; sets the edge geometry. Aim to get the edge to a good overall shape from the #800. The #4000 on the other side is to refine what the #800 did, and the SS#8000 to further refine the edge into something truly sharp.

Yes, other stones may make this easier/faster but you'll be looking to spend a pretty big chunk of change to get a 'better' edge than what you've already got can provide.

And don't count strokes. You do as much on any given stone as is needed. Yes, the finer stones don't need to do all that much when the earlier stones are used right, but I've never counted how many strokes I've ever done on a finishing stone in my life.


Get your eye in with what you've got, then decide whether it's worth the added cost of investing in something else.


(Kinda curious which #8000 works in 2-3 strokes though. Must be something astonishingly effective...)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

In a three bevel system (like charlesworth presents in his sharpening videos), any 8000 stone will work in three strokes if the second bevel is always chased to the edge.

[Stuart Tierney]

In a three bevel system (like charlesworth presents in his sharpening videos), any 8000 stone will work in three strokes if the second bevel is always chased to the edge.

Ahh, Charlesworth...


You know, I sent some stones to England for evaluation to a wholesale supplier. They got blown away by them, and anyone they showed them to couldn't believe what they were seeing.

But still, I got hit up for a King stone pricelist because, (wait for it!) that's what everyone wants since Charlesworth says they're good.


Kind of like bringing a machine gun to a brawl, then being told "Sorry old chap, we have noise ordinances here..."


Still can't see the point in counting the strokes though. But what do I know about sharpening?

Stu.

(Apparently, a sharpening dufus.)

[Mike Holbrook]

I think it depends on what kind of steel you are working and what you are trying to do with it. If you are trying to work A2 or one of the newer harder to wear steels it is going to take longer to do anything and some of the older stones will have a very hard time making progress. I am using Stuarts Sigma Power stones and like them much better than the King or Shapton stones I use to use. I have a 120 & 700 grit and still find I go to a belt sander with low heat belts to redo bevels. If you have to regrind a bevel, change a bevel, repair major damage...it is hard to start out too coarse. Most people here seem to use a grinder for the heavy work but you have to watch heat build up which is typically not a problem with hand work. Since the lower grit stones do the harder work they typically get worn more. I like the 700 grit Sigma Power stone I got from Stuart as it is very thick and cuts very well. The advantage of having a few extra stones, particularly at the high grit end is you can do the work faster. Fast is relative though, I have a Tormeck grinder, belt sander and several high grit stones and it still seems to take tooooo long to grind out very rough edges and bevels on plane blades. I should say I have a large number of very rough plane blades though which most people will probably never see.

[David Weaver]

I don't know if anyone counts strokes other than the first time they sharpen. It's a good way to end up with a remaining micro-nick if you didn't do a good job with the prior stone.

But if you follow the method, it does work.

We have sure seen the effect that videos and blogs have on product pushing, though I'm sure that charlesworth didn't have any ulterior motives, basically using two stones that as a pair only cost $100.

There are people still asking where to get custom plate glass, too. I did that as I started woodworking right when charlesworth's video came out, what a waste of money - the glass, not the video. Now I have a $95 piece of thick glass that I don't use for anything because it's not as good as a $25 piece of granite.

[Justin Chen]

Thanks guys you saved me some money for now. =)

[Terry Beadle]

My opinion re David Charlesworth's counting strokes... I think he was using it as a teaching aid. Some folks have no clue when they first start out using water stones ( myself included ! ). The counting is to get the idea across of about what to expect. Like how do you advise a noob how much pressure to put on the blade once they get to 8000 or even 3000 etc.

I think the major clue on the lower grits, especially any below 2000, it to test with your third finger ( ring finger ) for the burr. If you don't have a good burr, or the burr is not uniform across the edge, then you are not done on that grit. Scratch patterns give you a great idea of your coverage but they don't assure a good new cutting edge in existence. The burr's the thing...one igloo woman said ! Hoot! If you don't get a proper burr, the polishing of a dull edge is ineffective.

Any way, once you get above 2000 grit and into the 3000 to 4000 range you are polishing, not hand grinding IMO. There fore the first grit in this polishing range should include some flat side strokes to remove the burr, and I mean only 2 ~ 4 strokes should remove the burr. I always remove the burr going up the grits above 3000 ( I have a natural blue stone for this. ) just in case. Once you get to 8000 or above, it's very difficult to feel a burr, if at all, and the human touch can detect a few ten thousandth's of an inch.

Enjoy the process !

[Moses Yoder]

The only thing I would say is if you have a very poor quality lower grit stone, you will have to spend more time on the 8000 grit stone. If you are honing a nice bright edge in 10-15 strokes on the 8000 grit stone, you're not going to cut your time down much by buying a more expensive 1000 and 4000 grit stone. I have Norton water stones which work fine for me, and I probably make 10-15 stokes on the 8000 grit stone, hollow grinding then honing with no micro bevel or any other martial art tricks to my bevel. In my opinion a little wider bevel stays sharp longer, with some metal behind the very edge to support the edge.

[Jack Curtis]

RE: counting strokes

While I agree that the number of strokes isn't all that significant, there's nothing else to do, so I count. :)

Jack

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have the SS 8000 as well, and if you don't keep it well wetted, (and sometimes, even if you do) it can get a bit loaded, which slows things down noticeably. The feel and the look of the stone is sort of my cue. I often times rub my fingers over it as I wet it, this seems to help cut down on it getting loaded, but I find I like to keep it refreshed with a diamond plate more often than I used to, this keeps it working better. It feels like there's this sweet spot towards the end of my use in a session, where maybe the abrasive is broken down a bit and I get a slightly higher polish, but the stone isn't loaded and while it works slower, it's still functional. But if you aren't careful, it quickly goes to pretty much useless. I don't know, I'm not really sure what's happening, nor do I know how to describe it. (Maybe this is the "taste as natural stone gives" that the box describes?) Keeping an eye on lapping the top is helpful too, because while the 8000 seems to dish less than my other SuperStones, it's still prone to it, and can become and issue without realizing it. (When I first started using them, on more than one occasion, I'd forget to check things, and end up with a chisel that was very sharp at the edges and dull in the center . . . oops!)

Just my two cents - I don't know nearly as much about these things as other folks.

[Bryan Schwerer]

I would just like to comment to give some perspective to someone just starting out thinking about using hand tools. Sharpening is one of the most intimidating things for a newbie and when you see how much all these stones cost. A lot of this discussion it how to get something 99% close to perfection to %99.9. It's good stuff, don't get me wrong, but you can get a pretty sharp edge spending a lot less.

I started out with a Grizzly high speed grinder and a $30 1000/6000 waterstone. I also had a cheapy $10 jig to hold the blade. I just did a hollow grind, established a bevel with the 1000, honed on the 6000. It took a while in the beginning, but I got better, build a better tool rest, refined techniques, got a Norton grinding stone, lost the jig, made a leather strop. But even in the beginning, as long as it took the first time, you can get good enough edge to slice paper which is good enough for Adam Cherubini. This has gotten me 2 years and now that I've gotten pretty good, I feel like taking it too the next level. I have a 8000 stone on order for Christmas and will probably get a high end 1000 ceramic later in the year. My point is you can learn to make a sharp enough edge with the above expense.

BTW Justin, I grew up in Aurora and graduated from West High in '84.

[Chris Griggs]

I would just like to comment to give some perspective to someone just starting out thinking about using hand tools. Sharpening is one of the most intimidating things for a newbie and when you see how much all these stones cost. A lot of this discussion it how to get something 99% close to perfection to %99.9. It's good stuff, don't get me wrong, but you can get a pretty sharp edge spending a lot less.

I started out with a Grizzly high speed grinder and a $30 1000/6000 waterstone. I also had a cheapy $10 jig to hold the blade. I just did a hollow grind, established a bevel with the 1000, honed on the 6000. It took a while in the beginning, but I got better, build a better tool rest, refined techniques, got a Norton grinding stone, lost the jig, made a leather strop. But even in the beginning, as long as it took the first time, you can get good enough edge to slice paper which is good enough for Adam Cherubini. This has gotten me 2 years and now that I've gotten pretty good, I feel like taking it too the next level. I have a 8000 stone on order for Christmas and will probably get a high end 1000 ceramic later in the year. My point is you can learn to make a sharp enough edge with the above expense.

BTW Justin, I grew up in Aurora and graduated from West High in '84.

Very well said Bryan. I love my nice ceramics, but certainly you can get by with a lot less - especially if you mainly work well behaved wood. I've seen Dave say before that really he could probably get by with just a grinder a hard ark and a strop. I fully agree. I think with just my grinder, my surg black ark, and my strop - I could cover about 99% of what I need to do to blades, and get an edge good enough for 99% of what I do. It wouldn't be as fast or as easy, but it would get me from point A to point B. That wouldn't do blade backs so well, but there are plenty of way (diamond, powder, sandpaper) to do coarse work.

It's always kind of funny to me - the better I get at woodworking the less I NEED expensive tools and sharpening equipment, but the longer I woodwork the more fancy stuff I get. Seems like there should be some program where beginners get all the best tools, and then once they develop enough skill to use or tune up less fancy tools and equipment they pass the fancy dummy proof stuff down to other beginners. Now that I've been at this a couple years I can almost always get an old Bailey (or whatever) to work very well - but man I sure could have used some nice LV or LN bench planes when I was just getting started.

[Derek Gilmer]

Have you tried less time on the 8000 and adding a leather strop+green compound to the end? My 8000 stone gets a very nice edge. But the leather + green compound is what puts an edge on that I can easily shave arm hair off with.

[David Weaver]

Try a clean leather strop without the compound sometime. I think you'll be surprised how well it works after an 8k stone, and it won't round over the bevel any, plus you can use it to strop the back side of the chisel as much (and with as much pressure) as you desire without having any concern about whether the steel in on the back is getting worked.

Can just be a piece of smooth cowhide or latigo leather from a leather store.

Off of an 8k stone with a bare strop, the edge should shave hair very easily whether the chisel is bevel up or bevel down.

[Jim Koepke]

While I agree that the number of strokes isn't all that significant, there's nothing else to do, so I count.

All my life I have counted while doing things. Sometimes I hum tunes instead. This has given me a feel for how long things will take. It also works well with my powered disk sharpening (Mk II power sharpening system from LV) to not let the blade sit and get too hot while sharpening.

Sharpening is one of the aspects of woodworking that becomes an individual's ritual.

There is the hollow grinding, abrasives used, secondary & tertiary bevels, raising a burr vs not raising a burr and dancing in counter clockwise circles with a full moon while whispering secret chants at midnight.

My thoughts are if it works, you must be doing something right.

My methods seem to work for me, but I am always open to new information.

One consideration is where is the starting point of the sharpening task at hand?

Is this an old blade or nicked blade in need of having a new bevel established?

Is it a blade that has had some use and just needs a few strokes on the stone to optimize the edge?

For the record, I seldom have secondary bevels on any of my blades. Sometimes for very thick blades or to speed up sharpening a bit they are used.

Hollow grinding does make free hand sharpening a bit easier, but at present I do not have a grinder.

Raising a burr is a good indicator of progress. In my experience it arises mostly on the pull stroke. Sometimes I work an edge without pulling the blade over the abrasive. Instead, my focus is on the lubricant on the stone, water or oil depending on what stones are being used. This will indicate if the edge is touching the stone or if one is just polishing the heel of the bevel.

Stropping can be a blessing, it can also be a curse. It can polish an edge that is not well shaped.

One thing in my experience is using chisels that have been stropped a few times while work is in progress. Eventually, the stropping will not bring back a good cutting edge and it is time to go back to the stones. One time I was not getting a good edge with the 4000 or 8000 stone, so I gave it a few swipes on the 1000 stone. There was a scratch pattern over almost all the bevel except at the very edge that still looked polished from the strop. The solution was to stay on the 1000 until the scratch pattern reached the full edge. In effect, the stropping was making a small secondary bevel.

Sharpening is one of the things that is easy to over think to the point one could write a philosophical book, "Zen and the art of blade edge maintenance" or something.

Well, that is likely enough rambling for now...

jtk

[Matthew Hills]

I started out with a Grizzly high speed grinder and a $30 1000/6000 waterstone. I also had a cheapy $10 jig to hold the blade.

I also started with a 1k/6k combo stone with a jig, too. This worked pretty well for me, although I did start to have trouble with flattening the stones. Did you ever do that, or were you doing okay without flattening them?


To Justin (the OP): what is causing you to spend so much time on the 8k? Are you getting really deep scratches from the 4k, or is the sharpening a bit uneven (so you start to polish quickly in one spot, but it takes a while to polish the whole width of the blade?).

If the former, make sure that you're getting all of the deeper scratches out with the 4k (any scratches left from the 800 would take a very long time with the 8k; scratches from the 4k should clean up pretty quick). This is what Jim was suggesting, above.

If the problem is uneven polishing, then it sounds like one of your stones is not flat.

A second bevel is another way to reduce your polishing time, as you have much less metal to clean up. (The Mk II jig you're using has the micro-bevel setting for this purpose... although I tend to get into trouble by leaving it set for micro-bevel and then running on a coarser stone.... grr)

Also, I've had some problems with the Mk II jig and narrow chisels (1/4") not staying straight. Works well for wider chisels and plane blades, though.

On your question about differences between stones, I'd recommend reading Stuart's blog to get some idea of what differences he sees in his evaluations (speed, clogging, dishing, etc.)


Matt

[john lampros]

When i get to the finishing stone I only put a micro bevel on. it only takes 3 or 4 laps , if that.. there's no sense in polishing the whole edge on a 8000 when your only using the tip. too much wear and tear on the stone and the guy pushing it. the only problem with combo stones is you can get cross contamination with the coarser grits when finishing. i rinse the 8k separately and spritz the top off very well to get rid of any grit. You can get faster cutting stones but its a trade off in time spent flattening them. The norton 8k seems to be the happy medium for me. Also, it seems I spend more time on the back side of plane irons and chisels keeping them flat and polished. the back side is your edge.

[David Keller NC]

Thanks guys you saved me some money for now. =)

Maybe not. One of the aspects of doing all-hand honing with flat (as opposed to hollow grind) bevels is that no matter how careful you are, you will gradually steepen the bevel angle at the very edge. This is natural - the only way to prevent it is to use a very coarse stone and re-hone the entire bevel back to its original, flat state. Because of the steepening of the bevel as a result of using secondary (or tertiary) bevels, that often means taking a lot of metal off to restore the original 25 degree primary bevel. That can be quite tedious on even a very coarse stone or diamond plate.

One effect of a steeping bevel angle at the edge is that even though you can feel the burr on the backside of the iron, the finished iron won't cut like it should. That's because even though the actual edge isn't dubbed over, the perceived keeness of the blade is highly dependent on the effective cutting angle. In the extreme case, you can actually hone a secondary or tertiary bevel angle that is so steep that it doesn't have enough clearance in a bevel-down plane, and the plane won't cut no matter how extended the iron is.

That's why most of us that have been in this game a long time wind up buying a grinder so that we can hollow-grind our bevels. There are a good number of solutions for this - all the way from a very inexpensive hand-crank grinder, to an asian-made cheap 'n crappy power grinder, to an American-made Baldor-motor grinder, to a large-investment water grinder like a Tormek.

If you've doubts about this, take a relatively inexpensive blade over to a local woodworker's shop and try grinding a hollow bevel (Alternatively, you might take the blade to a local woodworking store - they often have a Tormek set up so customers can try it, and the shop personnel can sharpen blades for classes). If your friend has a dry grinder, be very careful - it's easy to heat the edge of the blade up to the point where it will lose temper and have to be ground way back to restore the metal's properties.

It will be a revelation when you get back to your shop and hone the resulting tool. In my own case, my procedure is: grind a hollow-grind on the Tormek (this is very quick even on a slow system like a Tormek so long as I don't use secondary bevels), then about 5 strokes of the hollow-ground bevel on an 8000-grit stone, 2 or 3 strokes on the back to remove the burr, and I'm back in business. Total elapsed time? About 5 minutes. In between trips to the Tormek, I use a leather strop with honing compound to restore the working edge. I can usually strop 2-3 times before bevel wear/strop dubbing requires a re-hone on the 8000 grit stone. And I can usually get about 4 or 5 re-hones on the 8000 grit stone before the flats on the top and bottom of the hollow grind become wide enough that it's necessary to go back to the Tormek.

[Darren Brewster]

Because of the steepening of the bevel as a result of using secondary (or tertiary) bevels, that often means taking a lot of metal off to restore the original 25 degree primary bevel. That can be quite tedious on even a very coarse stone or diamond plate.

Tell me about it. I stopped using secondary bevels for this reason. Just too hard to get back to the original bevel angle without a grinder (which I don't have the money for right now). It seems like such a good idea at first, but overall if you don't have a grinder, I think it would be much quicker not using secondary bevels. Of course, having a grinder would change this. I have freehand honed a flat bevel, and I don't get exemplary results.