Got my first Kanna - Need some advice

[Chris Griggs]

I got a great deal on this Kanna (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?171794-FS-Japanese-Hand-Plane-***-REDUCED-***&highlight) from Orlando G and just received it (and a couple extra generous surprises - Thanks O!:D) from him yesterday. I'm told that it was originally purchased from Stu by someone on Woodnet, who then sold it to Orlando, who then sold it to me. The Kanna has been conditioned before, and Orlando has been very helpful in giving me advice on further setup and use, but I thought I'd post my questions, as I always like to garner multilpe perspectives.

Let's start with the sole. I checked the two gliding surfaces the (1/2 " in front of the blade and 1/2" at the front of the toe) with my winding sticks and there is some twist to them. What's the best way to bring these back into line? Light lapping w/ 220 sandpaper on granite? or perhaps a sanding block?, or perhaps a finley set smooth or jack plane?.....

Okay, from there, depnding how much material I take from the glinding surfaces, I know I may need releave the area between the gliding surfaces and behind the blade - these however have already been releaved so I may be able to leave them alone. I don't have a conditioning plane. If I need to releave them is there any reason I can't just use a card scraper? Also, I have an old blade for a Stanley No.4 I don't use that I honed and turned a burr on - any reason I couldn't use this as and extra extra stiff scraper?

Now the bed. I blunted an old 3/8 flat sided chisel and honed the flats top make a scraper chisel - I don't have a plane float. Any reason I shouldn't be using this to tune the bed?

I rubbed some pencil and camelia oil on the blade and inserted into the plane too look for high spots. There were a couple is the center that I started top take down with the scraper chisel. Now when I insert the blade there is definitly oil/pencil in more places? However, there are still some dry spots and there is a thin area at the lowest portion of the bed just behind the mouth that remains dry and unmarked - should I keep working the bed? How do when I know when to call it good? Also, I'm having a hard time telling if the oil/pencil is accurately identifying the high spots on the bed - what would be your preferred method for this (marking that is)?

Now the blade. The bevel is huge so it's very easy to free hand in some respects, but I keep having issues with it skipping around when I move it over my stone. This happens to me sometimes with other blades (it is definitely something with my technique), but its is worse with the big bevel on the Kanna blade. Using very light pressure sometimes helps, but sometimes doesn't, same with side sharpening, helps but doesn't necessarily stop the skipping all together. Any suggestions? Other question is what do I do if I need to regrind the blade. I know that over time, I will probably add some convexity to the bevel whilst freehand sharpening. What's the best way to reestablish a fresh flat grind? I have no belt sander or flat power grinder. Should I just chuck it in my eclipse honing guide and go to town on my Shapton 120?

Okay last question - technique (yes I know to pull it). Pressure is focused in front of the blade with the dominent (right) hand. Other hand (my left) just sort wraps behind the blade and help to give some forward, but no downford force, correct? But how do I end the cut? Is it the same as a western plane, but wait to the very very end of the stroke to transfer the pressure to the back of the plane? Do I transfer pressure at all? Even though the plane isn't perfectly conditioned I did sharpen the blade and use it some. It's taking decent shavings and leaving a good surface, but I keep messing up the end of the cut.

Alright Stu, David, Wilbur, Orlando, Pam (are you still lurking around here somewhere?) or anybody else - as always, your sage wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks - Chris

(P.S. The extra surprises in the box were a little 40mm kanna and a little Kukari Chamfer plane)

[Jack Curtis]

...Let's start with the sole. I checked the two gliding surfaces the (1/2 " in front of the blade and 1/2" at the front of the toe) with my winding sticks and there is some twist to them. What's the best way to bring these back into line? Light lapping w/ 220 sandpaper on granite? or perhaps a sanding block?, or perhaps a finley set smooth or jack plane?

Probably the best thing to do at this point is to remove the blade and flatten the sole. Then reinsert the blade and build the cavities with scraper planes (they come in different sizes, see Hida:Woodworking:Planes:Scraper; also, there's a small, thickish scraper blade wrapped with a red plastic handle that I get quite a bit of use from).

3/8" is pretty small for trimming the bed (don't forget to accommodate the ura). Use a 1-2" bench or paring chisel.

Most of the pull force is applied by the hand wrapping behing the blade. The other hand mostly guides that effort.

What stones are you using for the blade? Really can't address graphite without seeing it.

Jack

[Chris Griggs]

Probably the best thing to do at this point is to remove the blade and flatten the sole. Then reinsert the blade and build the cavities with scraper planes (they come in different sizes, see Hida:Woodworking:Planes:Scraper; also, there's a small, thickish scraper blade wrapped with a red plastic handle that I get quite a bit of use from).

3/8" is pretty small for trimming the bed (don't forget to accommodate the ura). Use a 1-2" bench or paring chisel.

Most of the pull force is applied by the hand wrapping behing the blade. The other hand mostly guides that effort.

What stones are you using for the blade? Really can't address graphite without seeing it.

Jack



Thanks Jack!

I could use a 1 inch chisel - should I blunt it too and use it as a scraper or just pare?

I'm using Sigma stones - they are really not "sticky" stones at all - not prone to hydro planing, not sure what I'm doing to make the blade skip.

Is the Ura the chipbreaker? The plane has been previously conditioned some so everything does fit in just fine - I'm only messing with the bed to make sure the blade is mating solidly? Since everything fits in fine - should I just leave the bed alone? I don't want to mess it up... BTW, what do I do with the chipbreaker? Should I even bother to use it? If so how/when do I put it in? At the same time as the blade or after the blade is in?

[john brenton]

I can see from the second picture that there is some significant twist there. I would be very careful not to remove too much of the sole...it can happen VERY quickly.

[Jim Matthews]

Perhaps I'm a little thick about this, but does it cut straight and true, as it is?

If you have a flat surface (mirror glass, float glass, marble outcut from a kitchen counter) you may be able to straighten things with a bit of sandpaper.

Take down that back right corner in the photo first, then take another pass to see how it cuts.
If not, I would pass it over a jointer once, and use your scraping chisel to make the hollows. If you have another plane, just flip the blade around (bevel up) to approximate a conditioning plane.
It's not an ideal solution, but it's functional. You're just trying to take off enough that the plane will glide - there's not any other function to this that I know of.
The two decent Kanna I own have precious little hollow - I aim for the same clearance as the shaving size I want to take off.

If the steel seats well, and doesn't chatter while you work - you're good to go.

So far as grinding by hand is concerned - the marble offcut is my favorite substrate.
I layout some wet/dry sandpaper with a drop of water, and it stays in place by capillary action.

I then grind, sideways, with my right thumb resting on the stone and the blade on the sandpaper.

The idea here is that your thumb (or whichever finger you prefer) rides on the stone as a point of reference to get a consistent scratch pattern.
I'm looking for an even band of scratches to run all the way across the blade. This method should NOT be used on waterstones, as it will remove knuckles.

DAMHIKT

This could be done with stones, I suppose, but you'll spend a great deal of time getting them flat.
I save my Shaptons for honing, and grind with sandpaper.

[Chris Griggs]

Perhaps I'm a little thick about this, but does it cut straight and true, as it is?



Not thick - with any plane I think that's the approach to take before doing anything. Well, the reason I started messing with it was I felt like it wasn't cutting as well as I would like. Mainly, i felt like I was getting some chatter,and also when I take a thin cut the shaving it's taking is only in the middle and very narrow, as if the blade has camber (or heavier camber than it actually does). I'll check the blade again when I get home but I was pretty carefuly to hone it straight across, so really there should only be a tiny amount of camber in it, if any. I thought it was probably my technique and likely to a great deal it was, but I scoped things out anyway. The sole does seem a bit higher in the center of the gliding surface then on the edges, which would explain the narrow shaving. So I figured while I was at it I might as well do my best to get the thing condition as best as I can, and learn a few new things in the process. I got it knowing full well that I may need to condition and that was part of the point since I wanted to learn about Japanese planes. What better way to learn about a tool then to tune it up yourself.

[Jack Curtis]

I could use a 1 inch chisel - should I blunt it too and use it as a scraper or just pare?

I'm using Sigma stones - they are really not "sticky" stones at all - not prone to hydro planing, not sure what I'm doing to make the blade skip.

Is the Ura the chipbreaker? The plane has been previously conditioned some so everything does fit in just fine - I'm only messing with the bed to make sure the blade is mating solidly? Since everything fits in fine - should I just leave the bed alone? I don't want to mess it up... BTW, what do I do with the chipbreaker? Should I even bother to use it? If so how/when do I put it in? At the same time as the blade or after the blade is in?

I use a 36mm chisel as a chisel. If I need extra control at some point, I use the chisel bevel down. Where I use a blunted chisel as a single tooth scraper is in the abutments.

Don't know anything about Sigma stones. Stu and/or David Weaver can probably answer that part of your message.

The ura, iirc, is a slight curve from center to edge on the bevel side of the blade, assuming a bevel down plane. What's important is that the blade NOT rock in use.

I usually don't use the chipbreaker. Your choice. When I do use them it's to address crabby wood. Put it in after the blade, more or less.

Jack

[Chris Griggs]

The ura, iirc, is a slight curve from center to edge on the bevel side of the blade, assuming a bevel down plane. What's important is that the blade NOT rock in use.

Jack

Well after I did that tiny bit of work in the center of bed, the blade did seem to be bedding more solidly, there never was any obvious rocking, but when I marked the blade and put it in the plane, before doing any work on the bed there was a clear area of contact in the center of the bed - so perhaps the little I took off accommodated the ura a little better (yep its bevel down). I did feel like it cut smoother after that, but that could have been in my head or perhaps I just did a better job of setting the blade that time.

BTW, specifically what I did was use the 3/8 scraper chisel to knock down the high area in the center very very slightly, and then used a mill fill to smooth and blend it all together. This could be the completely wrong thing to do - I can see Stu cringing right now - but don't worry, I took very very little material off and then decided it would be best to get some advice before I really muck up the plane.

[Tony Shea]

STTOOPPP paring away any more material from the bed to get the blade seated fully against the bed!!!!! I can't stress that enough, you probably shouldn't have taken any off to begin with. The issue is that this plane has been set up already. On top of that you need to true the sole of the plane which in turn is going to cause the blade to project a bit more than it did intially, depending on how much material needs to be removed from the sole. The idea behind paring the bedding is to adjust the proper tension of the blade and give you the right blade projection. It sounds as if this has already been accomplished. Eventually if you keep removing material from the bed you will lose your tension in the blade and the plane will be unusable unless you want 1/8" thick shavings.

[Chris Griggs]

STTOOPPP paring away any more material from the bed to get the blade seated fully against the bed!!!!! I can't stress that enough, you probably shouldn't have taken any off to begin with. The issue is that this plane has been set up already. On top of that you need to true the sole of the plane which in turn is going to cause the blade to project a bit more than it did intially, depending on how much material needs to be removed from the sole. The idea behind paring the bedding is to adjust the proper tension of the blade and give you the right blade projection. It sounds as if this has already been accomplished. Eventually if you keep removing material from the bed you will lose your tension in the blade and the plane will be unusable unless you want 1/8" thick shavings.

LOL:) - I was waiting for a response like that - after I started I realized I should really wait to get more info. I must have missed something in some of the reading I did. Fortunately, I stopped before I really took off much of anything - just scraped off a bit of sawdust and only from the center - deliberately didn't touch any of the bed in the channels as I figured that was where I had the most potential to mess something up. Luckily the blade still fits tight in the plane even when it isn't protruding at all. Thank you Tony for the warning and explanation.

[David Weaver]

Shorter strokes on the sharpening stone. Play around with different levels of water and different levels of slurry until you get what you like.

Side sharpen the whole iron if you're having trouble with rolling it, it'll stay very flat on the bevel then, and it's unlikely you can't use long side strokes side sharpening (
though your stone might load). And you can do an end around all of it and just side sharpen it coarse and microbevel it just slightly over (steeper than) the primary angle if you want with a polish stone, you'll get a better edge that way for a while and spend less time on it.

The chatter may be just learning curve. pull the plane with your back hand and push down on the front of the plane with your front hand through the stroke. The back hand should do the hard pulling work, if you do it with the front one, you'll feel like you have arthritis.

The bottom probably doesn't have as much twist as the picture suggests, I think that's just the angle view. I have two fuunji planes with dais (or whatever the plural is) probably similar to that and if they move, it's just a little bit. My premium ones don't move at all, they just get bigger and smaller (you can tell by the fit of the iron), but don't twist or bow at all.

Unless the iron is loose in the abutments, it's probably technique causing the chattering. Learning by experience with the plane is best, but look around on google or youtube for experienced japanese craftsmen holding the planes and notice the hold of the hand in the back. If you're right handed and you pull the plane with your left hand, it's a totally different sensation all the way around, and you'll have the urge to pull with your right hand - like I said about that, just use moderate down pressure on the front.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah I was pulling with my front hand and it was hurting my and and wrist - I watched some videos but couldn't quite tell what the back had was doing in terms of force and pressure - so just to make sure I have this straight, right (front) hand holds front/gliding surfaces down to board with light-moderate pressure, and left hand (back) pulls forward but applies no downward pressure.

The sharpening thing is probably just me trying to move to fast. I had the the skipping problem with my other blades when I first ditched the honing guide, but it went away with time. I guess the big flat bevel on the Japanese blade is just s slightly different sensation requiring a different touch - moving slower definitely helps.

Tony, I am so happy you told me to STOOOOOOP!!! when you did. I played with the plane a bit tonight and the you are absolutely right, as is the blade sits at a very nice tightness in the body, and probably could stand to be even a little tighter. If I put the blade in and push with moderately firm hand pressure it brings the cutting edge just shy of a light cut and seats the blade tightly in the plane. If I push very hard with my palm the blade extends enough to take light cut and is held very firmly in place. Not that I'll be adjusting it with palm pressure - it just seemed like a good way to try and gauge the tightness of the fit of the blade. Anyway, I can see how removing anymore material would have made the blade so that it wouldn't seat firmly for light cuts.

The sole does have some twist according to my winding sticks, but I will need to be careful truing it up, so I don't open up the mouth. Unless its ill-advisable I'll probably start by just removing a tiny bit of material from the high sides of the gliding surfaces and see if that trues them up. Also, the front surface has a tiny hump in the center (its convex across its width), while the surface in front of the mouth is slightly concave across it's width. I don't imagine the very slight concavity on the surface in front of the mouth is causing any issues, but I'm thinking it would be a good idea to get the convexity out of the very front, right??? Actually come to think of it it's probably better to start by taking the slight hump out of the front and then see if the winding sticks still show any twist....

Anyway, thanks everyone for the tips - very very helpful!

[David Weaver]

Despite objections by many folks to this type of thing, I just take one of those granite slabs that everyone sells, and put a sheet of sandpaper on it to clean up the bottoms of my planes.

I scrape the hollow first (before they see the lapping plate - avoids the banana issue). I still have yet to see any contamination from grit in 5 years of doing it with almost a dozen planes. Key is probably to use good quality sandpaper that won't release a bunch of it. I would plane or scrape the gliding surfaces otherwise, with very light cuts, if I found I was contaminating the gliding surfaces.

If the iron is just a tad loose, you can stick just about anything to the plane bed, thin paper, etc. the iron should come just short of the mouth with hand pressure such that you have to tap it the rest of the way, and it should be pretty tight when seated at cutting depth or it'll move in the cut and be squirrely in fine adjustment.

When planing , I let two fingers on my left hand wrap around the dai on the wood (on the back), and the middle and index finger are firmly on the back of the plane iron. I don't know if people have more or fewer fingers on wood or iron in general, but that gives you nice leverage for a pull and fingers on the iron for feel and touch with cutting depth when taking a fine shaving. You'll see what I mean in use. What feels awkward at first comes along very very quickly.

[Chris Griggs]

It might be a tad loose, not sure - I'm guessing it's at the border of just right and ever so slightly too loose - I probably shouldn't have taken any material away. I'm not certain that loosened at all anyway, the tightness feels he same as when it arrived, and according to the graphite the blade is bedding more evenly now, but still, I'm really glad I didn't taken any more off. Anyway, I guess the important things is that the blade stays put, I can get the blade to protrude with hand pressure but thats if I push really hard. At the point the blade is just shy of protruding it seems to be in the body pretty darn tightly. When I took shavings I, thankfully, didn't notice any issues with the blade moving, so as long as I don't touch the bed anymore, I think it'll be fine.

Good to know the sandpaper hasn't caused you issues, I had read that you shouldn't use it, but I wanted try it anyway. It's how I flatten metal planes and certainly seems like the easiest way to make the gliding surfaces flat and parallel to each other. I will take it very light and slow though.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Chris,

That's a really nice plane to start with, and it looks like you're already on for way to getting your plane into good shape. Some of this is going to echo what already has been said.

You mentioned that the two touch points are about 1/2" wide. I'd narrow those down some more. I usually go for about 1/4" wide for those two touch points. A narrower land makes the sole easier to tune up.

You can use anything you want to remove wood. I use a card scraper all the time for the sole, and I use a file and/or chisels on the bed of the plane to fit the blade. Your scraper chisel is a great idea.

There's no reason not to use a jig to help you sharpen the blade, especially when you are just getting started or if you have to do some major rehab on the blade. I've managed to get Japanese plane blades into an Eclipse-style honing guide. The Lee Valley MkII jig works well for this, too. And I've used both in conjunction with 80 grit sandpaper on a granite plate to remove a bunch of metal from Japanese plane blades and chisels when I needed to.

The left hand needs to provide all the pulling force, otherwise you'll want to cut your right hand off. I'm as guilty of grabbing tight with my right hand when using a Japanese plane, and I quickly am reminded as to why that's not a great idea. A good exercise to build good technique is to use your right hand to push down on the plane, but keep your right hand open, so that your fingers are spread out in the air. That way, your left hand is forced to do all the pulling.

Finally, from your last post, it sounds like you have the blade set up nailed down. Pushing the blade with hand pressure so that it is just shy of protruding out is a good goal to shoot for.

If you have some time to waste, I've put together a bunch of articles on Japanese plane setup (http://giantcypress.net/tagged/Japanese plane setup), including a video on adjusting the plane blade with a hammer (http://giantcypress.net/post/3639684165/in-bobs-question-on-setting-up-his-japanese).

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Wilbur, thanks for your response.

I read (ok skimmed)a lot of that stuff on your blog before posting, great stuff, it was what gave me the foundation to even know what to ask. BTW on your blog, Cormic McCarthy (of whom I'm a big fan) in Ikea - flippin hilarious....

Anyway, good to have confirmation that I'm on the right track. Actually I've had no issues actually adjusting the plane with a hammer, and am finding it easier to set the blade then on a western woody (not that I've used many). I'm a little surprised that this hasn't given me any trouble, but it really is just a tap, tap here, and a tap, tap there...

Regarding sharpening, I'm pretty comfortable freehand honing in general, but I am used to honing on a hollow grind - the big flat grind feels easy to hold down and hone on the bevel at first, but in actual honing it just feels, well, just different - if I move slow I think for the most part I should be able to freehand it, which always my preference. What I did do however, was chuck it into my eclipse guide (sold my MK II about 6 mos ago) and throw it on my Shapton 120, just to make sure the bevel was nice and flat, this worked really well. So what I'm thinking is for grinding I'll use the jig on sandpaper and granite, but for most honing I'll just freehand. Thanks again for the helpful advice.

[David Weaver]

I will take it very light and slow though.

I've never had to use anything more coarse than 400 grit once the hollow is scraped into a bottom.

[Jack Curtis]

...I have two fuunji planes with dais (or whatever the plural is)...

There's no plural in Japanese.

Jack

[Jim Matthews]

Anyway, I've had no issues... actually adjusting the... western woody.

I get that whenever there are reruns with Maureen O'Hara on a horse.214472

[Chris Griggs]

I get that whenever there are reruns with Maureen O'Hara on a horse.214472

Hah!!! That made me choke on the apple I was eating :D:D:D.

[Stuart Tierney]

There's no plural in Japanese.

Jack

But there are counters. Oh boy, are there counters...

Mnemonics are your friend here. ;)


Chris, it looks like you're on the right track, but yeah, the blade is probably a little loose now.

And no, I'm not cringing at any point. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and so long as the feline is relieved of it's pelt, it's not that important as to how you got there.

I'm nutting out the kanna set up video in my idle moments, planning to shoot it over the new year's break. It's an epic undertaking, since I can see it stretching to over 2 hours already, and that's before getting into the really serious, highly detailed stuff.

Good luck with the thing. They're not bad planes, not amazingly fantastically wonderful, but not bad at all.

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

Glad you're not cringing Stu. Wasn't sure if you felt the same way about what I was doing as you feel about sandpaper on water stones. While you can sleep soundly know that my Sigs will never touch sandpaper, I did go to work on the sole of the Kanna this morning with some 220.

214488 I shaded in the gliding surface with pencil and a few swipes on 220 confirmed the twist in them, so I marked a cross hatch on the entire sole and worked a little more.


214489 Some more light sanding gets things down to some of the relieved areas of the sole and shows that the twist is present in the entire sole. I worked very slowly. Checked the pencil marks and with winding sticks every couple of strokes. I worked just until the winding sticks showed that there was not twist between the gliding surfaces of the sole. There was still a touch of pencil at the edge of each the gliding surfaces but not wanting to remove anymore then was require I called it good. From there I proceed to add the couple thou of concavity back into the areas of the sole from where it had been removed. I actually ended up using the blade from a No. 4 that I turned into a scraper so I would have something nice and stiff to scrape with that wouldn't add uneven hollows. This worked quite well and in just a few more minutes I had two approximately 5/16" wide gliding surfaces flat and in line with one another and some nice even hollows over the rest of the body.


After that I checked the blade back over and realized that there was actually a fairly moderate amount of camber in it, so I guess it was previously being used as a plane to take medium shavings - I don't know why I didn't notice this before but it definitely explain why I hadn't gotten full width saving before. I ground out the camber on some 180 wet/dry sandpaper using my eclipse guide and then proceeded to rehone the blade on my stones. Before long I was getting some nice near full width gauzy shavings (although that's just in poplar so far)
214490


Still have a couple issues though.

First, the blade very quickly started to chip - I checked the bevel angle and found that it was only ground at about 25 degrees. Isn't Japanese carbon steel suppose to bne ground at like 30-35 degrees?

If so, should I regrind the whole bevel or just add a secondary bevel and let it grow on it's own with time?

I'm still getting chatter as well. I think it's the whole plane chattering, not the blade, so I'm assuming that the issue is my technique, which I will continue to work on. I'm also thinking that if I add the chipbreaker and still get chatter this will help me to confirm that the issue is me and not the blade. Guess I'll just need to keep experimenting and practicing.

[Chris Griggs]

Good luck with the thing. They're not bad planes, not amazingly fantastically wonderful, but not bad at all.

Stu.

Not expecting amazingly fantastically wonderful from it - just expecting good and usable (actually, I'm just fine with "not bad at all"). Hoping to learn a few things from it and maybe get an idea as to whether or not I might want to send you $300-$400 for a Tsunesaburo some day.

[David Weaver]

Add a 5 degree microbevel - there's no reason to grind off a bunch of the iron (there will be enough mild steel support at 25 degrees to support the hard steel, anyway, so the microbevel won't hurt anything). Planes do OK in softwoods at 25 degrees, but high 20s seems in my experience to get you to the magic point where the iron fails from wear, and not from chipout and then accelerated wear.

I wouldn't go above 30, as you're probably working on a 8/10 bu bed (unless it says otherwise) which means the bed is in the high 30s range, and the top of the iron is effectively 40 or low 40s. A 30 degree microbevel will give you about 10 degrees of clearance, which is a nice place to stop.

If it chips out at 30 degrees, I'd be somewhat surprised.

Figure a few sessions of use before you learn the touch to not have the plane skip around at all and make it feel like it's chattering. What you see on the wood will probably be rounded looking ripples and not the torn kind of chatter you might get with a poorly fit old western woody.

[Chris Griggs]

Add a 5 degree microbevel - there's no reason to grind off a bunch of the iron (there will be enough mild steel support at 25 degrees to support the hard steel, anyway, so the microbevel won't hurt anything). Planes do OK in softwoods at 25 degrees, but high 20s seems in my experience to get you to the magic point where the iron fails from wear, and not from chipout and then accelerated wear.

I wouldn't go above 30, as you're probably working on a 8/10 bu bed (unless it says otherwise) which means the bed is in the high 30s range, and the top of the iron is effectively 40 or low 40s. A 30 degree microbevel will give you about 10 degrees of clearance, which is a nice place to stop.

If it chips out at 30 degrees, I'd be somewhat surprised.

Figure a few sessions of use before you learn the touch to not have the plane skip around at all and make it feel like it's chattering. What you see on the wood will probably be rounded looking ripples and not the torn kind of chatter you might get with a poorly fit old western woody.


Thanks Dave. 30 degrees it is - With the exception of my LABP that's where I keep all my other planes and most my chisels too - I too have found 30 (ish) to be the angle where I get good edge retention in pretty much all my blades. Just was pretty unsure if it was the same with a Japanese laminated blade.

Yes exactly!!! Rounded ripples is exactly what I'm getting - mainly at the start of the cut - it does look different from the choppy cut one gets with blade chatter. Glad to know its me and not the blade or the dai.

This is exciting, all I have left to do is put a higher bevel on the plane and it should be good to go. This has been a cool learning experience, like most things woodworking the reality is there isn't anything magical about setting up a Kanna - I know mine was mostly setup already, but what little I had to do was very straightforward. There seems to be a wonderful simplicity about Kanna that I think is really going to grow on me. Next I'll check out the conditioning on little 40mm plane that Orlando threw in with this one. That'll be a fun little plane to play with and I think I'll get some good use out of it too. I promise not to touch the bed on that one guys...

Thanks again everyone!

[Wilbur Pan]

This has been a cool learning experience, like most things woodworking the reality is there isn't anything magical about setting up a Kanna
Isn't that the truth. There's a lot of mysticism surrounding Japanese tools, which I think doesn't need to be there, and just confuses things for most people.

With practice, you should be able to set up a Japanese plane from scratch in about 30 minutes, tops. Much less to tune one up that has already been mainly set up, like the one you have. If you have the skill to fit a mortise and tenon joint, you have the ability to set up the bed of a Japanese plane. And don't be afraid to tweak the bed as you see fit. The worst case scenario is that the blade will stick out too far, in which case all you have to do is grind it back or glue a shim in to raise the bed again. Printer paper works really well for this.

My plane blades have a bevel angle of 28-30º as well.

[Tony Shea]

I agree that the blade might be ok with the said amount of tension. But as David pointed out you are able to put a shim on the bed to get it tight again if you have issues with the blade pulling out.

The blade getting little chips seems to be a common occurance for me and new japanese planes. It seems as though the initial grind on all the japanese blades I get are low, 20* to 25* at most. Must be they were intended for softwood even though they're advertised for American Hardwoods. So my fix is the same as what David suggested, hone a 30* micro-bevel on my blades. This seems to fix 95* of the chipping problems, unless I get into some hard hardwood. But I have a plane with a 45* bed and am able to comfortably hone a 34* micro on one of my blades and it helps immensly. The problem I have with that is the blade needs to go on a honing guide to keeps these bevels consistent. Japanese blades are my favorite blades to free-hand sharpen and these micro's are not yet big enough to keep the bevel flat on my stones.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Generally (and it's a broad generalization), recommended bevel angles for Japanese planes is somewhere between 25 and 30 or so (I would even say 32, 33 degrees) depending on the characteristics of materials being worked on, i.e. if it's hard, abrasive and so on. One thing you should be careful about is assumption. There is no universal standard for Japanese tools as there are a lot more steel varieties as well as vast variation in end products even if they are using the same steel. You just have to get to know your tool by trial and error, treat your tool according to your tool's temperament and they should be ok. It's just that there is no "you do this and that should happen" type of thing across the board.

I would sneak up on the bevel angle a little by little if I were you. I wouldn't get too cautious and go 1 degree at a time, but probably try 27 or 28 before going for 30, simply because I prefer the lowest bevel angle for the task. In a practical sense, 28 and 30 probably doesn't make noticeable difference on the wood surface, but it seems more intuitive to me that way. Not that everyone should do the same, but it might be worth a shot.

Even if you mess up bed by removing too much wood, you can glue a piece of paper or wood shaving on the bed and refit the blade again. It's not elegant, but it's not an uncommon remedy for loose blade.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, I'll need to jig this blade up in the eclipse until the secondary bevel grows large enough - I'll probably just find the 30 degree(ish) point (or a hair under) for this blade and throw another stop on my blade setting jig for repetition. The sneaking up makes sense, perhaps I'll start at around 28, although honestly when I set a bevel I'm not that precise and just make sure I'm within a degree or two of the desired angle - again whatever the angle that works ends up being I'll just make a stop so that I can repeat it. Before long the secondary bevel will grow to a point where I can freehand it again, and then I'll be able to use the same stop with the jig if/when I need regrind the bevel.

I'm not too worried about the bed at this point - the blade hasn't moved on me at all so far in use,and if it does the piece of paper thing sounds like a fine solution - no one will know it's there but me....

[Chris Griggs]

Ok one more issue/question. I honed a secondary bevel of about 27 degrees - this seems good. I also experimented with the chipbreaker, this also seemed to improve things. However, I was still having issues getting a full width shaving and completely eliminating the chatter.

I was checking out the blade and sole, and I saw that when the blade is protruding evenly out of the mouth (taking an even cut), one corner of it is biased to the right side of the plane. So basically, when the blade is extended equally there is about 1/16" of the blade that overhangs the right side of the mouth opening. This corner can't take a shaving and is causing some clogging -- there is essentially no opening behind it and thus nowhere for the shaving to go.

Anyway, how do I solve this? Is this likely even causing an issue? Should I widen the mouth in the horizontal direction (not widen in terms of making the opening bigger)? Or should I grind the blade so that it is closer to square an will sit more in line with the mouth as it currently is?

Hope this makes sense - if not I'll take a pic later.

[David Weaver]

If I gather what's going on...

There should be a diagonal cut in the dai that provides relief all the way to the edge of the iron. The abutment is wider above the mouth and the diagonal relieves it at the mouth such that the abutment doesn't sit right on top of the edge right at the mouth.

you can either grind away the corner of the iron until there is no restriction (1/16th in width is a fair bit of it) or relieve the dai slightly in that corner with a narrow chisel and some care so that the plane can feed reliably. You can tell looking at it, and thinking about how the iron is bedded, that you only want to work on the end of that diagonal and not remove more support than you have to.

But, you're right, you don't want the abutment sitting right against the cutting iron right at the mouth - at best, the iron won't cut there, but more likely, it'll clog and not only cut, but push the iron around slightly, too.

[Chris Griggs]

Yep that's what is going on. I'll check again tonight to see how much is overhanging, but if I recall, it looked like there might not be enough relief even if the iron was straighten out, so I'll probably have to widen the part of the mouth opening. May have been closer to a 32nd then a 16th but it was very apparent when I look at it that I there was nowhere for a shaving to go.

I think I get what your saying.

I'll see if I can figure out where to remove material just from looking at it myself, but if not, I'll post a pic, and ask for further instruction. Thanks Dave.

[Stuart Tierney]

You can either widen the mouth or grind back the blade a little. Proper is to grind the blade, easier is to trim the wood.

Arguably, trimming the wood means the aperture tapers smaller, and might cause problems but in reality, you're rarely pulling a full width shaving with any integrity at the edges, so it won't stop things up often, if at all.

BTDT. ;)

Stu.

[Wilbur Pan]

I was checking out the blade and sole, and I saw that when the blade is protruding evenly out of the mouth (taking an even cut), one corner of it is biased to the right side of the plane. So basically, when the blade is extended equally there is about 1/16" of the blade that overhangs the right side of the mouth opening. This corner can't take a shaving and is causing some clogging -- there is essentially no opening behind it and thus nowhere for the shaving to go.

Here's a closeup of one of my planes to show how the corners of the cutting edge are a tad narrower than the throat of the plane. The blade corner/throat relationship is better seen on the right side.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbaawtgQHF1qb04as.jpg

I'd grind back the corner that's overlapping too much. It will take less effort than you think, and the effect on your plane's performance will be vastly improved. I would venture a guess that this will take care of your chatter problem as well.

More info on this here (http://giantcypress.net/post/1468442719/japanese-plane-set-up-iii-final-tweaks).

[Chris Vandiver]

Postage stamps work really well as a shim for loose blades.

[Chris Griggs]

Let's pretend for a sec that the offending corner is circled in yellow. If I decided to grind back the blade (as opposed or in addition to widening side of the mouth) would I grind in the bevel on on the side and essentially make the cutting edge narrower (red line) or would I grind the blade more into square (assuming its way out of square) like the blue line? Or does it depend? Or doesn't it matter.
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[Chris Vandiver]

Grind the angle just enough to make the cutting edge ever so slightly narrower, than the opening. Not sure on your paticular plane but you may want to grind a little on both sides of the blade, to keep things even.

[Wilbur Pan]

Grind on the red line. That part is narrow enough that it won't take much time at all to rectify the situation. It will make the cutting edge slightly narrower, but not by much, and the plane will perform so much better that the reduction in the cutting edge width will be a nonissue.

The way that I do this is to put the blade in, and run a pencil along the corners of the throat from the top of the plane to mark the hollow side of the plane blade. Then when the blade is removed, you can use those lines to see how much of the corners to grind away.

[Chris Griggs]

Cool! Thanks guys - I'll give that a go tonight or tomorrow and repost... I'm assuming a standard mill fill will be just fine for grinding in the side?

[David Weaver]

You'll need a stone or careful use of a belt sander. The cutting edge of the iron will eat a file. It should be faster going than you'd expect, though, as you're cutting very little hard steel on a stone and the cross section is narrow. 5 or 10 minutes time to adjust it max.

[Tony Shea]

Good advise so far. I;m in agreement about not touching the wood and grind the blade's ears. This is very common maintenance with a japanese plane as you are always making the cutting edge wider and wider with each successive sharpening. Eventually if you let it go there would be no bevel on the corner of the blade at all. As has been stated, you need to keep the cutting edge of the blade ever so slightly smaller than the opening in the dai. If this isn't done then your plane will clog after the first shaving.

And David's advise about flattening the sole on sandpaper, then relieving the area's desired is def the easiest method I've come across thanks to him. Just pecking at the sole with a scraper plane can be troublesome for me as it is a constant battle checking the contact points for wind. The sandpaper and flat surface makes truing these contact points a cinch. And never, and I mean NEVER, have I had any issues with grit contamination from this method.

[Chris Vandiver]

Let's pretend for a sec that the offending corner is circled in yellow. If I decided to grind back the blade (as opposed or in addition to widening side of the mouth) would I grind in the bevel on on the side and essentially make the cutting edge narrower (red line) or would I grind the blade more into square (assuming its way out of square) like the blue line? Or does it depend? Or doesn't it matter.
214868


By the way, these angled areas on either side of the blade(red line in photo)are called "mimi"(ears).

[Chris Griggs]

Ok so here is the pic with blade protruding equally across the width of the sole (based on sighting down the sole) On the left side of the pic you can see how the "ear" overhangs the mouth by about 3/64". You might also be able to see that the secondary bevel has a significant skew to. I used an eclipse to put in the secondary bevel, so the jig seems to want to make the cutting edge more perpendicular to the sides. Gonna go clip the ear now... Should I give the blade some anesthesia first?

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[Wilbur Pan]

A little Versed will be fine. ;)

Grind away at the red line area until that corner of the blade is inside the throat. My prediction is that you'll be somewhat shocked at how much better your plane is going to work.

[Chris Griggs]

My prediction is that you'll be somewhat shocked at how much better your plane is going to work.

Shocked is right. WOW, that is soooooooo much better. Now it's taking chatter free whisper thin shavings in soft maple and cherry (the two woods I work the most), and man what a surface it's leaving. It can also so thicker shavings now where before it kept locking in the cut. It was working in pretty ok in poplar and pine before and really not at all in hardwoods - what a difference that adjustment made. HUGE THANKS GUYS!

After shot...
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[Wilbur Pan]

Glad it worked out. I've gotten to the point that this is one of the first things I check if I'm having problems with a Japanese plane. The second is making sure that the sole right behind the blade is relieved enough.

[Chris Griggs]

Glad it worked out. I've gotten to the point that this is one of the first things I check if I'm having problems with a Japanese plane. The second is making sure that the sole right behind the blade is relieved enough.

As a side note, Wilbur I must say your articles on setup are really very very good. They read well, provide a lot of information, and are easy to follow. I just went back through them and saw a couple things I might do/check to improve performance even more. Mainly I am going to check my hollows in the sole and as you mentioned, particularly check to make sure there is enough relief, immediately behind the mouth/blade.

[Tony Shea]

Chris, are you positive that the eclipse style honing guide is actually trying to square the cutting edge? I have found with most japanese plane blades that the sides are in fact NOT parrallel with each other. They usually have a slight taper in the further you get to the cutting edge. THis is why I am not able to use that style honing guide on Japanese plane blades that I own. You may be getting the edge square to one side but way off on the other. Typically I try to split the difference when working on establishing a bevel on these blades.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, are you positive that the eclipse style honing guide is actually trying to square the cutting edge? I have found with most japanese plane blades that the sides are in fact NOT parrallel with each other. They usually have a slight taper in the further you get to the cutting edge. THis is why I am not able to use that style honing guide on Japanese plane blades that I own. You may be getting the edge square to one side but way off on the other. Typically I try to split the difference when working on establishing a bevel on these blades.

Well, actually no, it's not trying to bring it into perfect square as you are correct the sides are not parallel - but looking at how each side relates to the cutting edge the side it is bringing down more (the larger part of the secondary bevel) will bring things closer to having an equal difference (equally out of square), if that makes sense. So really the guide seems to be reliably trying to balance things.

[Wilbur Pan]

As a side note, Wilbur I must say your articles on setup are really very very good. They read well, provide a lot of information, and are easy to follow. I just went back through them and saw a couple things I might do/check to improve performance even more. Mainly I am going to check my hollows in the sole and as you mentioned, particularly check to make sure there is enough relief, immediately behind the mouth/blade.

Thanks so much! I really appreciate it.