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Augusto Orosco
12-01-2011, 10:44 AM
A little over a year ago, we moved to Philly from Boston. In the process, I sold all my big power tools, and have been in woodworking withdrawal. We have been renting in the city, but we are now finally at a point where we are ready to buy a new (and hopefully for the long term) a house. My wife and my daughter have their wishlist, but mine is simply a dedicated space for a shop. My plan is to work mostly with hand tools but have a planer, a jointer and a bandsaw for the heavy duty stuff. I have worked in a garage before, and climate control was a real pain, besides sharing space with the cars. I think I am ready for a basement shop, as long as there is easy access (think big bulkhead door and easy path down the stairs).

What I am looking here is to poke your collective brain to guide me and teach me, so I can become an educated buyer: I want to be able to see a house and picture the possibilities in terms of reasonable remodeling jobs vs. the ones that are just not worth the effort/money.

To give you an idea, these are some of the things I wonder about and yet have little clue on what to expect:

- What warning signs should I look for? When is a crack in the foundation big enough to worry about? How do I assess the condition of the roof? How do I know if the piping looks old and inefficient? How do I tell in a 40 minute visit, if the heating/cooling systems and insulation is adequate; or if the windows will need replacement? Now, don't get me wrong, I will have the house inspected by a pro before I commit, but I want to be able to filter through the obvious lemons before I even consider making an offer.

- How hard/expensive is to make modifications to the house? For instance, how much time can I expect it will take for a contractor to tear down a wall (assuming it is not load bearing) to open up a room? Is that something so expensive that I am better off just passing and looking for another house? How about prepping the basement (i.e. insulation, drywall/prlywood/osb, flooring)? How about new counter-tops or flooring for the kitchen?

With everything that is going on in our lives right now, I won't have time for much DYI. Hence, I will be contracting pretty much any job that needs to be done. I plan on having the house available for renovations for about a month before we move in.

So, feel free to brainstorm anything and everything that comes to your mind. I really value the knowledge and experiences of everyone here!

Bob Riefer
12-01-2011, 11:11 AM
A couple comments about rennovating, these are just my opinions:
1) I would say that those that spend on quality spend wisely. It's tempting to stretch a budget to reach more tasks on your list by going for the lowest bid... but everyone is in business to make a profit. Where's the hidden cheap in the cheap price? Also, will the future you thank the present you for the cheap decision?

2) The HGTV shows completely rebuild homes on a $25K budget are misleading. They have sponsored appliances and equipment, TV budget money, labor that's seemingly free etc. etc.

3) Those same shows that illustrate two unwitting home owners overhauling entire wings of their home "on their own", to high end professional standards no less, are similarly misleading. Behind the scenes, there are crews of professionals guiding, helping, finishing, fixing.

4) If you don't have time on your hands, a fixer upper might not be for you. Even though you plan to contract the work out, we lean on the home owner for many decisions throughout the process. It's a bigger time drag than you would guess. One month goes very quickly in construction world too, so unless your jobs are very small, you may be living in a rennovation zone.

5) If you plan a detached structure, or an addition, picking a home with a nearly flat and level lot is a good move. Excavation costs can escalate in a hurry.


My best advice, and I give this to all customers, is to choose a builder you're truly comfortable with. Trying to nickel and dime through a project will not make you money-ahead in the end, nor will it help you meet timelines. Allowing the builder to select and deal with sub contractors is well worth the GC markup fee.

Again, these are just my opinions. I'm not too far away if you want to get out of the city to chat woodworking, check out my barn etc.

Augusto Orosco
12-01-2011, 11:36 AM
A couple comments about rennovating, these are just my opinions:
1) I would say that those that spend on quality spend wisely. It's tempting to stretch a budget to reach more tasks on your list by going for the lowest bid... but everyone is in business to make a profit. Where's the hidden cheap in the cheap price? Also, will the future you thank the present you for the cheap decision?

2) The HGTV shows completely rebuild homes on a $25K budget are misleading. They have sponsored appliances and equipment, TV budget money, labor that's seemingly free etc. etc.

3) Those same shows that illustrate two unwitting home owners overhauling entire wings of their home "on their own", to high end professional standards no less, are similarly misleading. Behind the scenes, there are crews of professionals guiding, helping, finishing, fixing.

4) If you don't have time on your hands, a fixer upper might not be for you. Even though you plan to contract the work out, we lean on the home owner for many decisions throughout the process. It's a bigger time drag than you would guess. One month goes very quickly in construction world too, so unless your jobs are very small, you may be living in a rennovation zone.

5) If you plan a detached structure, or an addition, picking a home with a nearly flat and level lot is a good move. Excavation costs can escalate in a hurry.


My best advice, and I give this to all customers, is to choose a builder you're truly comfortable with. Trying to nickel and dime through a project will not make you money-ahead in the end, nor will it help you meet timelines. Allowing the builder to select and deal with sub contractors is well worth the GC markup fee.

Again, these are just my opinions. I'm not too far away if you want to get out of the city to chat woodworking, check out my barn etc.

Thanks for the reality check, Bob! I am well aware that those HGTV shows are rather misleading in terms of what can be accomplished and at what cost. Also, I am really not looking for a big fixer upper because -as you noticed- I don't have a lot of time in my hands. I think the most I would go for would be to tear down a non load bearing wall if I want to open a room, or perhaps replace the kitchen floor or countertops. A house that requires anything more involved than that will most likely be scratched. As you said, a month goes by in a hurry, and I don't want to live in a perennial construction zone. I also believe that you get what you pay for (I learned that the hard way with hand tools), and that's why I am interested in cost. If I can't afford to do it well (or rather have it done), I just won't do it. And if that forces me to pass on a house with a lot of potential, that's ok, too.

I have seen your posts on your Barn... I wish I had your skills and perseverance. I might take you on your offer one of these days, if only to check that cool renovation job in person. Thanks!

Bob Riefer
12-01-2011, 11:42 AM
It's hard to put a price on things without seeing them, but to try to be concrete to some degree I'd say that even "small/simple" tasks (removing a non load bearing wall, refinishing the opening, moving electrical that was in the wall etc.) are rarely less than $5,000 by the time it's all said and done. That gives you a little of a starting point.

Another thing you can do is, if you get serious about a house and know you'll be doing work to it, is to select your builder ahead of time and ask them to visit with you. A home inspector's point of view and a builder's point of view may be good book ends to help you understand where project costs could possibly go. This is a step I wish I'd taken when I purchased my home, but I was buying in a frenzied environment. In today's slow paced housing market, this could be a good move for you.

Good luck, and welcome to the area :-)

Anthony Whitesell
12-01-2011, 11:56 AM
My pro home inspector was a waste of time. But I know it's required and maybe others are better.

Watch a few episodes of Holmes on Homes, just to look at the things he checks. (take it with a grain of salt. just as reference of the things he looks for and his explainations)

Some issues you may not see until after you move in. For example, My previous owners had a new walk-out basement door installed. For whatever reason the trim didn't reach below the threshold just to the ground. Leaving a nice hole for the mice to come in for the winter. As the basement was emptied and construction clean, there was no where to find any mouse "evidence". Not until I put some hiding places down there did I find the mice. Not until I spray foamed the side of the door, did I find the issue. I haven't had any mice since.

If in doubt about something spend 3x the time checking it out. Anything you're skeptical about check it two more ways. As for the furnace and A/C, get the manufacturer and model number and check with your current company to see if it is a reputible machine. The one that was originally installed in my house had government safety warnings issued for it. It was so out of whack two years after I purchased the house I had it replaced. I have a Weil-McClane with a Beckett burner. Nobody's going to complain about that setup.

Personally I would worry about most cracks in the foundation. The one I have leaked like a sieve. I filled it with drylok, but it's cracked again. Next summer I'm going to use a 4" grinder to cut it open and use the quikrete concrete repair stuff in the tube. I've had good luck with the stuff in the past.

For the roof, look for curled shingles, missing gravel. Look at the edge of the roof to peak under the shingles to check for felt/ice shield (a Mike Holmes trick). Check each penetration for cracked sealant and/or gaskets (again, my house had one the inspector missed). If you can see the under side of the sheathing, look towards the eves for water damage; signs of ice dams.

Move the insulation around in the attic to check for critters, compaction, and depth. You won't be able to see insulation any where else.

As for the windows, open and close each one. Maticuously inspect the frames and sill for rot (if wood) or for signs of leakage. Check the windows stay open when opened and that they lock shut. Check for drafts.

Skip 40 minutes. I feel bad for the people I buy my next house from. I'm thinking the home inspection's going to take about 2 hours. Trace each wire, pipe, and duct you can see for any issues. Any issues you see in the open, mean there are most likely issues you can't see.

John Aspinall
12-01-2011, 12:15 PM
Hello Augusto, and welcome.

Boston housing stock is old and varied. Depending on your preferred location and budget, your possibilities could include everything from Colonial era renovated-six-times-with-the-same-bumpy-floor to post war boom showing-its-age-with-Eisenhower-pink-bathroom, to recent construction with all-dubious-fiberboard materials. Take your time. Get to know some neighborhoods that you think you like, and find out all you can about the houses there. Most of the time, there will be plenty of useful history as whole neighborhoods are often built at approximately the same time by the same builders.

Coming from Philly, there won't be any big surprises, but Boston is a little colder and wetter in the winter. Consider the heating system; in this area you'll find both oil- and gas-fired, also forced-air, forced-water, and steam. Ask for heating bill history. Look in the attic at the insulation, if you can. Also snow-related, consider the parking situation, and where the snow is going to go when you shovel/plow/snow-blow it from your driveway.

For anything that looks old/worn: ask "is this usual aging, or are they fighting a chronic condition here?"
For anything that looks new: same question, really: "why was this particular thing replaced?"

Feel free to PM me with specific questions, especially if you're looking the northwest 'burbs.
- John

Augusto Orosco
12-01-2011, 12:19 PM
Thanks, guys. That's all great advice. And hearing from your personal experiences is very valuable!

P.S. John: You have my move reversed. I was in Boston until last year; I am currently in Philly. Your advice still applies, though. Thanks!

Greg Portland
12-01-2011, 12:49 PM
My Dad and brother renovated his 1200 sq.ft. home from top to bottom (subfloor repair, new floor, new drywall, new wiring, new plumbing, new roof, new windows, new siding, new appliances, etc.). This level of replacement was due to tax reasons (versus bulldozing and building from scratch). It took them over a year to complete the project (and ~2-3mo to get 1 room livable). My brother was single at the time... I can't imagine wanting to do this with a family.

I also had friends who purchased a trashed historic home (late 1800s era) & they wanted to remodel to keep the historic tag. It was a 4k sqft home and it took them over a year to get it livable and another 6+ years to complete the major renovations. The hired out the roofing but did everything else themselves. During the process they were on one of the remodeling shows (to re-install the old balusters on a staircase that had been removed). As Bob mentions, all the work was competed by the crew behind the scenes. They had prop boards and empty nailguns for the owners to use on camera. They also had to pay for all the materials...

Brian Tymchak
12-01-2011, 1:20 PM
If you buy a home that was built before 1978, there is a possibilty that it has lead-based paint used on exterior, interior, or both. The older the home, I suspect the higher the likelihood. I think most states are pretty picky now about how the abatement of lead paint is handled. Not even sure if this is a DIY job anymore. Might have to bring in a licensed contractor. I guess you could say the same for asbestos in pipe insulation and flooring. Just something to keep in mind if you are looking for a fixer-upper with some age on it.

Found a wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_United_States)that gives some good info.

Good luck with your search.

Ryan Mooney
12-01-2011, 2:15 PM
Any advice from me here is worth what you're paying for it as I am far from a professional here :D

A few things I've found useful when looking at houses in addition to what other folks have mentioned (lots of good advice here!), while this is certainly not definitive its helped me pass on a few problem houses (disclaimer, I've only ever owned three houses but have gotten progressively pickier when looking at them):

"bounce" on the floor, especially in heavy traffic areas. This helps find squeaks and creaks which may be indicative of something interesting. This isn't necessarily a deal killer but creaky floors can be indicative of other problems (i.e. settling or soft joists that you probably want to examine furhter) and are at best annoying.
Check the window sills, especially on the weather side of the house. A surprising amount of them seem to be rotted out. Having a thin sharp wire to poke them is handy, if it goes in easy that's not good. Generally if I find rotted or soft sills I'm pretty suspicious about there being further damage because it likely means that there is water damage inside the house. This is one of my first "has this house been taken well care of" checks, possibly unfair but often it seems that if the sills are shot, so is the roof, etc...
Look for unexpected patches or paint mismatches on the walls and ceiling, also closely examine any discolorations. Especially in areas under bathrooms or where water may have intruded. These may be a hint that there was patched water damage (yeah there is a trend here - water damage means risk of mold and once you have mold problems.. good luck).
All concrete cracks (well ok pretty much all concrete cracks :rolleyes:), but look at how it cracked and the surrounding walls. If you see a crack look at the walls on both sides of it. Are the walls still in alignment? If not there may be settling which can be a lot worse problem than a crack (realize that realistically most older house have some settling, so if it doesn't look new its probably not to bad. You can get a swag at the age by looking at the spider and other bug or wear evidence around the crack).
Turn on and off all taps, light switches, etc.. to make sure they work as expected (I usually don't bother doing this until the second showing when I'm pretty sure I'm interested). Let taps run for a minute or three at full speed and watch the drains for any slowness or backup, ditto on flushing the toilets. A slow drain may be ok, but it could also be indicative of a bad layout with insufficient slope or other problems and is worth taking a closer look.
Get one of the little plug in outlet checkers and spot check the outlets in the main rooms for miswiring.
In some cases you can take the cover off of receptacles on exterior walls and if they did a mediocre job of the drywall you can see what the insulation is. If you see nothing, its not necessarily really bad (it might just be pushed out of the way a little), but if you see sawdust then run (I don't think that's as common on the east coast as it is in old farmhouses here in the west.).
Great point from Brian on the lead paint, but also look for asbestos (ceiling tiles, roofing material, fireplace surrounds..) its solid stuff but a super pain (legally speaking) to try and remove or replace.
Get dirty :D Go everywhere you can, be there with the inspector and ask questions. Often the inspector will tell you things that they won't write down. There are good inspectors out there, ask around - its your money - and find a decent one.

On the remodel side, I can concur that even trivially seeming changes end up costing more and taking longer than you would ever hope.

A few things I've tackled successfully:
======
New countertops: ~2K (ok they are nice granite) and the kitchen unusable for about 2 weeks.

New floors throughout - this quickly devolved into new trim, interior doors and adding a 1/4" underlay everywhere to bring the hard floors level with the existing tile floors and repainting the house (cause you know we have all the trim and floors out so... yeah). Took me about 4 months and cost ~2x what I had originally planned (since originally I had just planned on the floor cost :rolleyes:. Removing an interior wall is imho likely to follow a similar path.. because you'll need to patch the flooring and if you're doing that... might as well put down new and ... umm heh.

Tiling a bathroom - 2 weeks, and tile is ouch! expensive if you buy nice stuff (the nice stuff is much nicer to work with though).

"Re-grouting a shower" - grout was a little soft around the bottom of the shower tiles, naively I'm thinking "easy peasy just cut out and regrout". Turns out the builder had used regular drywall behind the shower tile and it was all soft. sooo a weekend re-grout job turned into a ~4 week (in my "spare" time) project of ripping out the whole shower, installer new vapor barriers properly, cement board, blah blah blah tile blah blah. sigh.

Anthony Whitesell
12-01-2011, 2:38 PM
Speaking on pricing.

New kitchen floor (March '11) 4 meters wide 14' long by IVC US was around $900 for the floor, $60 for adhesive, $100 for 10 sheets of premium 4x4 subfloor, $18 for floor cement, plus red rosin paper for the template. Kitchen was a construction zone for about 4 weeks. I ordered the floor and started the removal the same day. The floor was ready about a week before the flooring arrived. But the kitchen was usable each day expect for installation day.

Bathroom (July '10): New tub, floor, and bifold door. New tile around tub and faucet. Same toilet and vanity/sink. Tub was 4 piece and cost $750. Floor was Armstrong at around $150. BiFold door and casing was about $80. Tub Faucet was $150. $50 for subflooring. Lots of incidentals (grout, mastic, cement board, paint, etc.) All told it cost close to $2k. We had budgeted $1500-1600 but opted for a different, better, more expensive tub. Water and the bathroom were out for one day to install the tub and another to install the floor (toilet and vanity were removed).

Augusto Orosco
12-01-2011, 4:09 PM
Thanks again to all. This is great info, and I will certainly use it when the search begins. Keep them coming! Any personal experiences/suggestions are very helpful.

Augusto Orosco
01-06-2012, 10:15 AM
So, there's one house with potential, but no woodworking space (no space in the basement, no space in the garage).

What would it cost to build a detached “mostly hand-tool” retreat? It would be a simple structure, about 250sf, with 8’ height clearance and perhaps two small windows. It would need to have enough power to have good lighting, keep it heated (that's important to me, I want to be able to work in the winter) and run the occasional power tool (such as a drill press or a lunchbox planner). I call it a structure, because a well insulated shed would do, and that would be cheaper than building a garage-type structure with a foundation (although perhaps I am kidding myself… so feel free to burst my bubble).

The space I am thinking about already has a little shed with electricity (which is good, since that there is a run of wire from the house... although perhaps not of the right gauge for what I want) but the shed is too small (10x15 tops), with 6’ height clearance and not properly insulated. So that should be taken down before installing the new one. I am all for DYI but in this case I want it all to be done properly by an expert.

Anthony Whitesell
01-06-2012, 10:47 AM
My 10'x12' pavillion shed (metal roof, no sides, 6 braced legs, 6 8" concrete pilings, and some PT lumber) cost around $600 for me to build. You're going to be adding walls and siding with studs 16"OC plus insulation all around. For a pavillion twice the size, I would expect $1200. Then add walls, floor, and insulation. Wouldn't surprise me to be around $3k.

Around here there are three classes of building permitting/inspection. Under 120sq ft do not need a permit but the town would like to review a construction drawing/sketch (I'm just repeating what was on the website). The next level is above 120 sq ft that requires a permit and detailed drawings but not intended for continuous occupancy (ie., not going to receive an occupancy certificate. The drawings need to be neat and detailed but do not require a professional architect. The building may or may not receive a post-build safety inspection. Above that you're into a standard house with rough inspections, occupancy permits, etc.

Jim Matthews
01-06-2012, 2:12 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Big Three in residential housing;
location, location, location.

You will do better in the long run if the school district is viable (where I live, public schools are in decline) this exerts a downward pull on house prices.
How far is the commute into your place of business? If you can't get onto the T easily, you're in for a lifetime grind into Boston - five days a week.
Do you have access to primary shopping? Making a special trip to get groceries eats up your free time (which should be shop time).

I'm working out of my damp, cramped Danktum Sanctorum basement, and it's adequate. Hand tools in the house, limited power tools in the garage.
A decent bandsaw, lunchbox planer and an edge-guided circular saw will get you through most power tool steps.

Just sweep up before The Boss gets home, m'kay?

jim
westport, ma

Steve Griffin
01-06-2012, 2:42 PM
Can't help you on price, but having a detached space is profoundly better for this hobby. Noise and dust are kept separate.

Even if you can find a basement with separate entry, the dust finds it's way upstairs through the windows/doors.

The garage can be used for staging materials/projects if needed, which might help keep your shop size down.

I also have one thought about houses, which please take as a personal opinion only: I really dislike old houses. I'd rather live in 800 square feet of modern house with proper insulation, wiring and windows than 2000' of old house which sucks every weekend away fixing stuff.

Van Huskey
01-06-2012, 3:13 PM
I just have one point and very general at that. Make sure the "bones" are good. Painting, moulding, flooring (to some extent), fixtures and the like are cheap compared to things like major plumbing, wiring, foundation, roof, re-insulation etc. You can live in a house and save money for the cosmetics but when the major jobs need to be done they usually have to be done then and usually seem to know when money is the tightest.

Although I agree that location is very important, sometimes the key is what is the location going to be like when 1. my kids are school age or 2. when I sell the house.

Ken Mosley
01-07-2012, 7:36 PM
Since you are an admitted "non-pro" in this department, I would suggest hiring one to inspect the property you're considering. You'll know precisely what's wrong now and what's possibly to come later and save a bundle in the process plus eliminate the severe aggravation to follow should you decide to save the $250.00 or so it would cost.

Good luck

Augusto Orosco
01-07-2012, 8:54 PM
Since you are an admitted "non-pro" in this department, I would suggest hiring one to inspect the property you're considering. You'll know precisely what's wrong now and what's possibly to come later and save a bundle in the process plus eliminate the severe aggravation to follow should you decide to save the $250.00 or so it would cost.

Good luck

Thanks, Ken.

As I stated, I will definitely have the home inspected once I find one I like. I am just trying to educate myself on what to look for when I go house hunting with my realtor.

Larry Edgerton
01-08-2012, 6:41 AM
If you buy a home that was built before 1978, there is a possibilty that it has lead-based paint used on exterior, interior, or both. The older the home, I suspect the higher the likelihood. I think most states are pretty picky now about how the abatement of lead paint is handled. Not even sure if this is a DIY job anymore. Might have to bring in a licensed contractor. I guess you could say the same for asbestos in pipe insulation and flooring. Just something to keep in mind if you are looking for a fixer-upper with some age on it.

Found a wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_United_States)that gives some good info.

Good luck with your search.

Actually Brian, you have that all backwards. I am an EPA lead certified contractor.

The homeowner can do whatever he wants in his own home, its the contractor that has to play by their rules. Their rules basically ended the restoration portion of my business. No one wants to pay what it costs.

Larry

Jim Becker
01-08-2012, 8:44 PM
Perhaps I missed it, but what areas are you looking to settle/buy in? Depending on where that might be, I may be able to hook you up with some good RE resources or at least let you know my thoughts on that area.

Curt Harms
01-09-2012, 8:16 AM
It may be part of the mortage approval process but if you're looking at a house with a basement get a radon check. That's common issue in this part of the world.

Augusto Orosco
01-09-2012, 8:30 AM
Perhaps I missed it, but what areas are you looking to settle/buy in? Depending on where that might be, I may be able to hook you up with some good RE resources or at least let you know my thoughts on that area.

Thanks, Jim.

We are looking in neighborhoods along Route 30. My commute is to Center City, Philly; so preferably a house no farther than Wayne.

Bob Rufener
01-12-2012, 2:02 PM
A lot of good advice. I have a basement shop and fortunately, I had the foresight to have a partially exposed basement built. I put in a 9' patio door and have never regretted it. I would assume houses in the Philly area have basements. The basement access has been so convenient for bringing in heavy equipment and a furnace and hot water heater that needed replacing. Something to keep in mind while searching for your new home.

Jim Matthews
01-12-2012, 10:27 PM
Something near the Speedline in New Jersey, perhaps?

Haddonfield is nice, and has some larger houses. Collingswood would get my vote, near the Newton lake is surrounded by well-built houses at reasonable cost.
Driving into Philadelphia is challenging, on the best of days. If you're driving in from the West, you'll forever be squinting into the traffic.