New Plane: Why Won't My Wedge Stay Seated

[Chris Griggs]

I decided to stop obsessively over thinking whether or not I should keep or exchange my new LN infill shoulder plane. So when I go home tonight I put a hollow grind in the blade, honed it 1k, 6k 10k, put it back in the plane and went to work. Problem is, when I take a cut the blade keeps pushing back and the wedge comes loose. LN says not to hammer the wedge in, but I did seat it with a lot firm palm pressure as they suggest. I double checked the blade, it was sharp, but I rehoned it anyway. I then checked the wedge - the surface of the wedge that meets the blade has visible twist in it. Is this what is causing my problem? I'll call LN tomorrow and see what they say, but I thought I'd see what you folks thought first?

[Joseph Klosek]

Sand the wedge and the iron with some 220 grit sandpaper.

I tap mine with the handle of my chisel.

I have been using mine for 10 years now and no problems from a little tapping here and there.

J.P.

[Chris Griggs]

Sand the wedge and the iron with some 220 grit sandpaper.

I tap mine with the handle of my chisel.

I have been using mine for 10 years now and no problems from a little tapping here and there.

J.P.

Won't sanding the wedge risk making the wedge less snug?


Also, 2nd issue, I can't get an even cut. It keeps taking a heavy cut on the left. The blade is ground square. Actually, surprisingly, the factory grind was a bit out of square, so I was extra careful to make sure I squared it when I hollow ground the blade. I have checked repeatedly with two different squares. Cannot figure out why the cut is consistently heavier on the left. I know if there is an issue with the plane LN will handle it, so this isn't meant to be a criticism of them. Just hoping to get some insight into whether this is user error or the plane.

[Jim Matthews]

Won't sanding the wedge risk making the wedge less snug?

The wedge will still have the same inclusion angle, it will seat lower in the throat.
The call for 220 grit is to make the mating surfaces rough, a "non-slip" finish.

I've made the mistake of applying Camellia oil to the iron for storage, and having the wedge back out on the first pass.

Here's a question, do you work from right to left, or the other way around?
When I'm leaning over a board with my shoulder plane, it naturally wants to tip toward me, favoring a cut on the left side.

How heavy is the shaving? I find a heavier shaving tends to cut true. Multiple light shavings tend to follow the grain.
I try to take off just so much that I'm not tearing out, or crowding the escapement behind the wedge.

If the blade tracks to one side, check the amount of steel showing beyond the body. Larry Williams mentions this in his "Sharpening profiled hand tools" DVD.
The protrusion "hangs" as you progress deeper and draws the tool to that side.

[john brenton]

Maybe they don't recommend hammering the wedge in because they figure people will really slam the thing in there. I'm sure a few light taps with a very light hammer wouldn't hurt it. I would see if some light sanding would even out the twist a little to give you some more surface mating, and also as the other poster mentioned to give it a little friction. Cocobolo is pretty oily too.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the great advice guys - I think we might be getting somewhere. Although I just got to work so I won't be able to do anything until I get home tonight.

First the wedge. Roughing it and the blade with sandpaper makes sense. I've done this to the fence posts on my router plane and skew rabbet with 150 grit paper and it definitely makes a difference. Also, the oil.... Yes I oiled the blade and the rag I use has all sorts of stuff in it, including paste wax, so I'm guessing this is aggravating the issue as well. I actually waxed the plane as well but was careful not to get wax on the bed or wedge for this exact reason. Also, as John said cocobolo is quite oily. I wonder if a thin roughed up coat of dewaxed shellac on the bottom of the wedge would help? I also have a plane hammer I just made out of apple wood which certainly won't hurt the brass or cocobolo so I may try tapping it in with that. Anyway I feel like I have a lot of things I can try regarding the slippage that will fix that problem.


The uneven projection on the other had has me STUMPED. Jim, yes, I plane right to left, and at first thought I might be biasing the plane to one side. However, after taking cuts on a shim at various points on the sole/blade it is most definitely cutting heavier on the left - the unevenness is consistent and always to the left, so I don't thing the issue is with how I'm setting the blade. Also, I have and do regular visual and tactile checks for blade projection on all my planes - it is part of my standard procedure any time I adjust a plane. When I first got the plane I noticed that that the blade seemed to be projecting on the left side a bit more, but this was before I reground the blade so I figured it was just a result of the factory grind being out of square. However, even after making sure the cutting edge is dead square to the blade sides, it still is consistently projecting farther out on the left. I really am completely stumped here - no matter how I adjust the blade this unevenness is occurring.

Anyway, I emailed LN last night with a detailed description of the issues I'm having. I will see what they say, before I do anything to the wedge or plane.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Remember people were advising use of hair spray to stop socket chisels from getting loose? Maybe try that. Not sure how that'd work out, but at least I'd try that before sanding it.

[Jack Curtis]

The wedge issue could be the result of humidity. When more humid, the wedge is too large to seat properly.

Jack

[Jim Matthews]

What I mean is that the side of the iron that protrudes from the body must allow clearance.
If it contacts the side of a dado, it will "turn" toward that side of the slot.

It's similar to what happens when one brake grabs on a car, and the other doesn't - the center of rotation shifts toward the side that is at a stop (or dragging, in this case).

If you're experiencing the same problem cutting a rabbet, I'm at a loss to explain.
Does the blade have a skew, relative to the body, or is it set perpendicular to the body?

[Chris Griggs]

I'm not sure if I'm totally following what you mean by "the side of the iron that protrudes from the body" - you mean like when you have the side of the blade extend just past the reference side of the body like when cutting a rabbet? This is how I set up my fillester/skew rabbet, but because this shoulder plane is really just for tuning/fitting existing joinery I have been setting the iron so that it is flush with the side of the plane referencing the work. Or are you referring to fact that shoulder plane irons are slightly oversized so if you set the reference side flush there is some proptrusion on the non reference side?

Actually I haven't even used it on a rabbet or dado. I had just been taking swipes/test cuts on the edges of boards - so it looks like we are both at loss

The blade is definitely ground square and, and it doesn't appear to be a skew to the body. When I line up the side of the blade so it is flush with the side of the plane the edge appears to be perpendicular to the plane and the mouth opening looks even all the way across. However, despite this, when I sight down the sole, feel with my fingers, or take shaving with a shim it is clear that the left side of the blade is projecting more than the right?


It makes no sense, the only think is that the bed is somehow out of wack... It's really bizarre.

[Chris Griggs]

Looks like we aren't the only ones stumped by this. Just got my response from LN... "It would probably be best at this point to send the tool to us so that we can look it over."

[john brenton]

Ditto on that. After fettling a fair number of planes of all different makes, models, materials and eras...I would say that this could be a very easy fix, or a horribly frustrating disaster.


"It would probably be best at this point to send the tool to us so that we can look it over."

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah.. I wanted to see what they and folks here thought just in case I was missing something obvious or doing something stupid, but I'm not about to do any heavy fettling on a brand new LN plane. I'm happy to have them take a look at it - that's what your paying for when you buy LN or LV.

[Brian Kent]

Do you have a reference square to make sure the sides of the plane are exactly 90° to the bottom?

[Chris Griggs]

Do you have a reference square to make sure the sides of the plane are exactly 90° to the bottom?

I don't have any machinists squares or feeler gauges, but I've checked it with my try and combo squares - I have yet to see a plane where no light comes though anywhere, but its really, really square - pretty certain it is well within tolerances. Either way, its getting boxed up tonight and shipped out first thing tomorrow - I'll let LN figure it out from here.

[jamie shard]

It's so cool that they are interested in taking a look at it.

[Jim Matthews]

I wish I could refer you to Larry Williams' video online, it's a Lie-Nielsen production.

Mr. Williams shows marking out an iron with Layout Stain (http://markingdevices.americanmarking.com/viewitems/dykem-layout-staining-fluid/dykem-layout-staining-fluid-2) and scribing a line parallel to the base and sides for grinding
The idea is to grind the iron to match the profile of the sole. The sole then would follow the groove as it cuts, and help keep things aligned.

It sounds to me like all you need to do is knock off the protruding corner and you'll be in business.

[Chris Griggs]

I wish I could refer you to Larry Williams' video online, it's a Lie-Nielsen production.

Mr. Williams shows marking out an iron with Layout Stain (http://markingdevices.americanmarking.com/viewitems/dykem-layout-staining-fluid/dykem-layout-staining-fluid-2) and scribing a line parallel to the base and sides for grinding
The idea is to grind the iron to match the profile of the sole. The sole then would follow the groove as it cuts, and help keep things aligned.

It sounds to me like all you need to do is knock off the protruding corner and you'll be in business.

Jim, I really do appreciate the effort - I know it can be frustrating to try and describe such things.

What you said makes sense to me with a molding plane, but with a shoulder plane everything needs to be square, right? Sides need to be square to sole, and blade edge needs to be square to blade sides??? Yes in theory, I could grind the iron out of square and probably get an even cut, but then I would only be able to use one side of the plane as a reference. If I tried to reference the other side (not that I would switch it up that much), the higher part of the iron would protrude unevenly out of the reference side and thus I wouldn't be able to use it as a reference. I could very well be mistaking here - it sounds to me like you know a lot more about this than I, and I may just not be following. Again, I really do appreciate the effort on your part.

[Chris Griggs]

I wish I could refer you to Larry Williams' video online, it's a Lie-Nielsen production.

Mr. Williams shows marking out an iron with Layout Stain (http://markingdevices.americanmarking.com/viewitems/dykem-layout-staining-fluid/dykem-layout-staining-fluid-2) and scribing a line parallel to the base and sides for grinding
The idea is to grind the iron to match the profile of the sole. The sole then would follow the groove as it cuts, and help keep things aligned.

It sounds to me like all you need to do is knock off the protruding corner and you'll be in business.

Actually, now that I think about it again it does seem like simply grinding the protruding part of the cutting edge of would work. It would take the blade edge out of square with the blade sides, but it wouldn't stop me from using either side as a reference because the sides of the blade would still are flush with the sides of the plane.

So that leaves me wondering, what about the plane is making the iron protrude unevenly if the sides are sqaure to the sole and the blade is ground square - in theory, on a new premium plane you should need to have the blade ground square to get an even cut... does that mean the mouth opening is skewed? I will need to check.

[Kees Heiden]

On my old record shoulderplane the sides are very square to the bottom but the bed for the iron isn't. It is not quite parallel to the bottom. So i must grind the iron a bit unsquare. Because your plane is new i woud indeed send it back.

[David Keller NC]

So that leaves me wondering, what about the plane is making the iron protrude unevenly if the sides are sqaure to the sole and the blade is ground square - in theory, on a new premium plane you should need to have the blade ground square to get an even cut... does that mean the mouth opening is skewed? I will need to check.

In all likelyhood, the sides are square to the sole. Also likely is the iron is of uniform thickness across its width. Both of these being "out" would cause the effect you're seeing.

But - what is also possible is that the bed for the iron isn't square to the sole. That would cause two effects - the wedge wouldn't want to stay in the plane in use, and the depth of cut wouldn't be consistent across the width of the mouth. If this is the case, you should be able to see it. Place a precision-ground metal rule across the width of the plane on the sole, behind the iron. Then compare the protrusion of the iron to the thickness of the rule. If the bed has not been made square to the sole, you will notice that the iron is "deeper" on one side of the mouth than the other.

If this is the case, send it back. No amount of messing with it is going to fix this problem unless you've got some specialized files and the skill to use them (which is not common). And, since you bought a L-N plane, you won't have to.

[Chris Griggs]

In all likelyhood, the sides are square to the sole. Also likely is the iron is of uniform thickness across its width. Both of these being "out" would cause the effect you're seeing.

But - what is also possible is that the bed for the iron isn't square to the sole. That would cause two effects - the wedge wouldn't want to stay in the plane in use, and the depth of cut wouldn't be consistent across the width of the mouth. If this is the case, you should be able to see it. Place a precision-ground metal rule across the width of the plane on the sole, behind the iron. Then compare the protrusion of the iron to the thickness of the rule. If the bed has not been made square to the sole, you will notice that the iron is "deeper" on one side of the mouth than the other.

If this is the case, send it back. No amount of messing with it is going to fix this problem unless you've got some specialized files and the skill to use them (which is not common). And, since you bought a L-N plane, you won't have to.

Sighting down the sole with or without the rule it is very hard to tell the difference in protrusion, the mouth is very very fine - I can't extend the iron enough see the protrusion as much as I would like. However, the difference protrusion is there. I keep thinking there must be something I am doing wrong, but the out of balance in protrusion (tiny as it is ) is consistent each time I set the blade - if it was user, error I feel like the inaccuracy would be less consistent.

I checked the plane back over when I got home tonight - everything thing appears flat and square including the bed - everything about the plane body and bed appears perfect - but given the consistency of the occurring error I feel like the bed might be just enough out of square to cause this issue.

I will send it to LN - if there is a problem they will fix it - if its my error they will tell me that as well.

[Chris Griggs]

Just got my little bronze plane back from LN. The problem was indeed that the wedge had been twisted. They promptly replaced it with a new wedge and sent it back to me. Another great service story. My favorite part was that they actually included a nice even thickness test shaving in the box, showing that they tested the plane after replacing the wedge just to be sure that fixed the problem. For whatever reason, that test shaving really made me feel good and assured that any further issue with the plane will be my own errors and not issue with the tool. Thanks LN!