Sawstop Benchtop Saw...

[Dave Sepucha]

I know there has been recent mention of this in various places, but this is the first visual I've seen of this saw. I did a search and didn't see anything on this site yet, so I apologize if this is a duplicate post. Below is a photo I just saw from a popular publication's website.

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This image definitely looks very prototype-ish with no fence or rail. Although I'm not in the market for such a saw, I'm definitely curious to learn more about it. This appears to be the most realistic step to getting their technology to the jobsite and addressing a significant, and previously unserved, segment of the market.

Thoughts?

[Bruce Page]

That is interesting. I bet there are a lot of general contractor type's that would jump at that.

[Victor Robinson]

Supposedly will be ready for production in summer and carry a sub-$1k pricetag. I'd be interested to know how heavy it is. If Sawstop is able to build a portable saw with class-leading fit and finish, comparable or surpassing the Bosch 4100, for around $100-200 more than the Bosch, Gass will certainly have made his point.

$800 with a good stand (gravity-rise?) and they will have a winner.

[Peter Aeschliman]

What I'm most curious about is whether this saw will launch itself in the air when the brake fires! I love my sawstop, but that's a little scary.

[Mike Heidrick]

They have a dolly type stand for the contractor version or did in 2008.

[keith micinski]

800 dollars for a plastic portable saw? You really think that contractors will jump at that? I am guessing the 400-500 you have to spend to get a 744 or a 4100 is pushing it, But I have been wrong before. I loved my 744 for what it could do as aortable saw but I was just barely able to justify the expense over my 99 dollar delta that did 99 percent of what the 744 could do with just a little more hassle. I think Sawstop might want consider that sometimes a product has a market and sometimes no matter what the product is the market isn't there for it. And not to sound stereotypical because I would consider myself a contractor or at least a wanna be one, but the average contractor isn't going to WANT to spend 800 dollars on a job site saw. I'm not saying they won't but I am saying there is a chance they wont. And sub 1000 is probably closer two a grand then it is 800. There high end saw has a market and they have proven they make a great product but that doesn't always translate downwards. Also if they are able to build the brake technology into a portable 800 dollar saw they are going to have a hard time justifying what they charge for it in their high end saw's.

[Alan Schwabacher]

If this saw exists, insurance companies will make it more expensive for a contractor to use a cheaper saw.

[chelsy hurry]

If this saw exists, insurance companies will make it more expensive for a contractor to use a cheaper saw.
yup, that's possible trend.

[johnny means]

Sawstops from industrial to hobbyist grades are the number one selling brand. Why wouldn't the job site buyers follow the trend. If the rest of table saw market doesn't mind paying a premium, why would contractors?

[Richard Shaefer]

800 dollars for a plastic portable saw? You really think that contractors will jump at that? I am guessing the 400-500 you have to spend to get a 744 or a 4100 is pushing it, But I have been wrong before. I loved my 744 for what it could do as aortable saw but I was just barely able to justify the expense over my 99 dollar delta that did 99 percent of what the 744 could do with just a little more hassle. I think Sawstop might want consider that sometimes a product has a market and sometimes no matter what the product is the market isn't there for it. And not to sound stereotypical because I would consider myself a contractor or at least a wanna be one, but the average contractor isn't going to WANT to spend 800 dollars on a job site saw. I'm not saying they won't but I am saying there is a chance they wont. And sub 1000 is probably closer two a grand then it is 800. There high end saw has a market and they have proven they make a great product but that doesn't always translate downwards. Also if they are able to build the brake technology into a portable 800 dollar saw they are going to have a hard time justifying what they charge for it in their high end saw's.

You're thinking like a home hobbyist, not a contractor. A benchtop saw that costs $800 is a bargain versus having a worker chop his hand up and losing the productiviy for the man and the guy (if not you) who has to take him to the hospital, and that's not even counting the deductible on your buisness insurance. If Sawstop can push this thing out for the same price as the Bosch saw (and most other contractors I know have the Bosch), expect to see contractors buying these things in bulk.

[Jerome Hanby]

You're thinking like a home hobbyist, not a contractor. A benchtop saw that costs $800 is a bargain versus having a worker chop his hand up and losing the productiviy for the man and the guy (if not you) who has to take him to the hospital, and that's not even counting the deductible on your buisness insurance. If Sawstop can push this thing out for the same price as the Bosch saw (and most other contractors I know have the Bosch), expect to see contractors buying these things in bulk.

As long as it doesn't mis-fire. If out in the weather conditions promote mis-fires, then that cost and loss of productivity would have to figure into the equation. Does wet wood (thinking PT) cause these things to fire?

[Derek Gilmer]

As long as it doesn't mis-fire. If out in the weather conditions promote mis-fires, then that cost and loss of productivity would have to figure into the equation. Does wet wood (thinking PT) cause these things to fire?

Having worked construction I'd be as afraid of morons trying everything they can find at the job site to set it off. "Just to see what happens" leading to a high cost of replacement parts.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Now that thought makes me wonder what the ratio is between circular saw accidents and table saw accidents are on a job site, where the weather and work environment are not perfect.

[David Hostetler]

Sawstops from industrial to hobbyist grades are the number one selling brand. Why wouldn't the job site buyers follow the trend. If the rest of table saw market doesn't mind paying a premium, why would contractors?

The number one selling brand of what? They certainly are NOT the number one selling table saw brand, not even by a long shot...

[Dave Lehnert]

The number one selling brand of what? They certainly are NOT the number one selling table saw brand, not even by a long shot...

That took me by surprise too. I would almost be willing to bet (and just a guess) that Grizzly sells more table saws than all other brands combined. Like i said. just a guess, not based on any facts.

I will be interested in seeing how the saw works. I'm curious how a small saw is able to absorb the shock of the sudden blade stop.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Having worked construction I'd be as afraid of morons trying everything they can find at the job site to set it off. "Just to see what happens" leading to a high cost of replacement parts.

Ya know....that had never occurred to me, but now that you mention it I would imagine there would surely be some of that going on. "My wife put mayo on my bologna sandwich again, and she knows how much I hate mayo on bologna.......Hey guys - watch this!!" :D :D

Also - since jobsites are outside, and it has been known to rain outside........how does surface moisture affect the brake? I'd assume it fires when the wood was in the rain yesterday?

[Anthony Whitesell]

So after each guy gets to trigger the brake once (to see it happen, not because of the safety aspect), then they test each board, of which none will work without overriding the brake. Now its become a pain to test each board, so they just put it in override everytime they start the saw. What a wonderful safety device to have spent money one.

That's funny. It sounds a lot like the same reasons many saws don't have the over-blade guards installed.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Man, if I were a contractor paying insurance, concerned about taking care of my employees, and concerned about lawsuits (especially due to the recent lawsuit), I wouldn't think twice. $1,000 is cheap from that perspective.

And maybe since I work in a professional office environment, I'm over-estimating peoples' professionalism, but if my employees were setting the brake off frequently, we'd have a "talk." And if we had to have another "talk", they'd be looking for a new job. Especially in this economy (and worse yet, in the construction industry), people really want to keep their jobs. Shouldn't take much to keep your guys acting responsibly.

[Don Wacker]

I wouldn't even consider it as an option. The recent case law is going to be in litigation until after Im gone. Employees IMO are going to take a lighter stance on safety with the sawstop believing they are now cut proof. When someone finally looses a finger because the saw stop device did not work is when the real legal battles start. Its an electronic device, its going to fail and when it does I dont want to be anywhere near it.

Don

[Victor Robinson]

Ya know....that had never occurred to me, but now that you mention it I would imagine there would surely be some of that going on. "My wife put mayo on my bologna sandwich again, and she knows how much I hate mayo on bologna.......Hey guys - watch this!!" :D :D

Also - since jobsites are outside, and it has been known to rain outside........how does surface moisture affect the brake? I'd assume it fires when the wood was in the rain yesterday?

That's a great point. Weather and wet wood are much more of a factor in this particular market segment. Must be something they are dealing with in the prototyping. The brake technology as currently configured seems like it would be too sensitive in many contractor/construction environments.

[glenn bradley]

If this saw exists, insurance companies will make it more expensive for a contractor to use a cheaper saw.

I'd like to write each and every one of the jurors and thank them personally :).

[Anthony Whitesell]

And maybe since I work in a professional office environment, I'm over-estimating peoples' professionalism, but if my employees were setting the brake off frequently, we'd have a "talk." And if we had to have another "talk", they'd be looking for a new job. Especially in this economy (and worse yet, in the construction industry), people really want to keep their jobs. Shouldn't take much to keep your guys acting responsibly.

This was along the lines of my first thought. It is a typical catch 22 with equipment like this. On one hand they may not care if they set the brake off, either intentionally or carelessly (ie., trying to cut wood that is actually too wet but not testing it first). So the typical response would be to have them pay for the replacement brakes. But since there is an override and they aren't going to want to shell out the cash for a new brake for an intentional, accident, or actual (almost got nipped) firing, they'll just run the saw in override all the time to prevent the brake from firing. A definite no-win situation.

[Ray Newman]

"Employees IMO are going to take a lighter stance on safety with the sawstop believing they are now cut proof. When someone finally looses a finger because the saw stop device did not work is when the real legal battles start. Its an electronic device, its going to fail and when it does I dont want to be anywhere near it."
--D. G. Wacker

BINGO!

[Dan Clark]

That took me by surprise too. I would almost be willing to bet (and just a guess) that Grizzly sells more table saws than all other brands combined. Like i said. just a guess, not based on any facts. I will be interested in seeing how the saw works. I'm curious how a small saw is able to absorb the shock of the sudden blade stop.Whether Grizzly sells the most tablesaws is irrelevant for this market. Contractors buy small Bosch, Dewalt, and Makita tablesaws for use at job sites. That's the market for a portable Sawstop. Grizzly's aren't a factor in any way. Dan.

[Dave Lehnert]

Whether Grizzly sells the most tablesaws is irrelevant for this market. Contractors buy small Bosch, Dewalt, and Makita tablesaws for use at job sites. That's the market for a portable Sawstop. Grizzly's aren't a factor in any way. Dan.

Sure that is true but the original statement I was replying to was "Sawstops from industrial to hobbyist grades are the number one selling brand"

[Phil Thien]

I'd love to have one of these.

[michael case]

All I have ever seen Sawstop claim is that they are the #1 selling CABINET SAW. I have not yet heard of any other company challenging this claim.

[Peter Quinn]

Don't these saws have a bypass on the breaking system? I'd guess am few wet wood fires and they live in bypass mode from then on. It might fit a certain type of contractor more than general construction use. Most guys I know use circular saws and chop boxes more than the TS for framing and sheathing, the TS comes out for trim and finishes. But occasionally there is over lap.

[Richard Wagner]

If Sawstop can do that, they should have WITHOUT all of the legal tactics had have occurred. If they had done that, they would have already taken over the market. Supply and demand would have ruled that way.

[Derek Gilmer]

Man, if I were a contractor paying insurance, concerned about taking care of my employees, and concerned about lawsuits (especially due to the recent lawsuit), I wouldn't think twice. $1,000 is cheap from that perspective.

And maybe since I work in a professional office environment, I'm over-estimating peoples' professionalism, but if my employees were setting the brake off frequently, we'd have a "talk." And if we had to have another "talk", they'd be looking for a new job. Especially in this economy (and worse yet, in the construction industry), people really want to keep their jobs. Shouldn't take much to keep your guys acting responsibly.
You greatly over estimate job site stupidity. I remember seeing such awesome things as:
1. Dropping wood cut offs on upside down circular saws to see how far they fly
2. Duct taping the tip of framing nailers down so you can shoot nails across the job site at your buddy
3. Super gluing someones boot to the roof while they were not paying attention (and wearing the boot)
4. Who can get their finger closest to the table saw blade with out flinching
5. More such amazing human tricks.

Trying to find new and "funny" ways to set off a saw stop and then blaming it on lumber when the boss comes by is easy to see happening.

[Phil Thien]

I don't think they've had too many instances of people "hot-dogging" the saws in factories and shops, where the owner of the saw isn't the primary user. I really doubt jobsite employees will be much different. Sure, there will be some, but the majority of carpenters I've known have been pretty serious guys, not knuckleheads.

And there are plenty of independent contractors that would be the sole users of the saw that would certainly benefit from the safety features.

[John Coloccia]

Funny to read all of the doom and gloom scenarios of why it will never work, why it's more dangerous, etc. It's the same nonsense we've been hearing for years. "People will be more reckless and get injured more." So just how many serious injuries has this new "dangerous" technology produced?






Anyone?

[Greg Peterson]

My popcorn ran out. Fill me in on what I missed.

+1 with John. I'm shocked that SS hasn't accounted for any or all the design deficiencies brought in this thread. To hear some tell, guys will be bringing hot dogs to work the play with the saw.

I know a contractor, one man operation, that missed a little over a year of work because his hand, not fingers, got caught in the blade. This is an experienced, high end contractor that does well beyond industry standard work. The several hundred dollar premium for SS technology on a SS saw is a pittance.

Good thing Wilbur and Orville didn't listen to all the experts in their era.

[Derek Gilmer]

My popcorn ran out. Fill me in on what I missed.

+1 with John. I'm shocked that SS hasn't accounted for any or all the design deficiencies brought in this thread. To hear some tell, guys will be bringing hot dogs to work the play with the saw.

I know a contractor, one man operation, that missed a little over a year of work because his hand, not fingers, got caught in the blade. This is an experienced, high end contractor that does well beyond industry standard work. The several hundred dollar premium for SS technology on a SS saw is a pittance.

Good thing Wilbur and Orville didn't listen to all the experts in their era.

I'm not saying no one will buy it. I just can't see it being a "revolution" in job site safety that some claim. Just like I don't think sawstop revolutionized how cabinet saws are purchased. Powermatic, grizzly, delta etc are still selling great saws to great people. Sadly sawstop threads seem to devolve into a nearly religious debate where you are forced to be pro or anti sawstop. It is cool tech and I'm glad it exists. But some people can carry on with out it.

[Don Wacker]

Funny to read all of the doom and gloom scenarios of why it will never work, why it's more dangerous, etc. It's the same nonsense we've been hearing for years. "People will be more reckless and get injured more." So just how many serious injuries has this new "dangerous" technology produced?


Anyone?

I dont think the technology itself is going to cause any real injuries but reality says kids will be kids but they are going to be stupid no matter what. If they are not doing something wrong with a saw they are shooting each other with nails. Its when the technology fails is when the real problems come for the little guy. Lets face it Sawstop is Lawyers that saw a financial opportunity and are running with it full steam. They did their homework and im sure have made darn good and sure they will not be liable in the event of a failure. These little job site saw are fine for the home hobbyist that are looking for a little bit of extra protection from human error. But are they realy a job site tool that gets used and abused, never maintained usually sliding around in the back of a pick-up truck.
I dont know a single contractor that is getting rich in the industry most are just barely getting by. Sure when the technology fails their L&I is going to cover the hospital bills and pay the guy for a finger. Its the lawsuit against the contractor for faulty safety equipment that is going to put him in a court battle. He isnt going to be able to file for bankruptcy bail out and inc. protection isnt going to do squat. Are the lawyers that own Sawstop going to step in and help out? Dont get me wrong Im not anti-lawyer, Im married to one but really where are they going to be when sh$% hits the fan. This equipment is going to age just like every other tool we own its going to fail eventually just like your cordless drill. When it does the little guy is going to pay dearly for the false sense of security.

Don

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm not worried about the small 1-2 man, maybe even 4-6 man, operations that know and understand their livelihood is in the saw and replacement cartridges are coming form their pocket and paycheck. I think most of us are are talking about the mid to large size companies. Condo builders, office building construction, etc. where there's dozens of guys on the site working for the same company with less "supervision". Those are the groups that will go "play with the brake". Those are the guys that will "get annoyed" when the brake fires on wet wood and place it in bypass for every cut so they can "get their job done". In these cases, they've defeated the purpose and are no more or less likely to get bit than they were before there was a sawstop saw on site.

I think everyone is right to some extent. Only time will tell to what extent. I sincerely believe that all the scenerios that we've proposed will happen, and at a greater than just a passing frequency.

[John Nesmith]

I am in the camp that believes, if used on a job-site, the brake would either be constantly overridden or there would be frequent misfires (both intentional and unintentional)

[Alan Schaffter]

Maybe they should make it so you need a key to override the brake- and the supervisor keeps the key.

[John Coloccia]

Maybe they should make it so you need a key to override the brake- and the supervisor keeps the key.

That's how they're all designed already. Invariably, Alan, all of he negativity is written by people that really don't know much about the product, so don't be taken in by any of it. People like me, who use it everyday, experience none of the problems that we're supposedly supposed to experience.

[Anthony Whitesell]

That's how they're all designed already. Invariably, Alan, all of he negativity is written by people that really don't know much about the product, so don't be taken in by any of it. People like me, who use it everyday, experience none of the problems that we're supposedly supposed to experience.

The override requires a key or code? I didn't notice a key hole or keypad when the Woodcraft demo'ed the saw for me.

I'm trying not to be negative or positive, just trying to put out thoughts based on experience. I do think the sawstop tech is great and would be on the top of my list when I buy my first new saw. I do worry about the availability of the brakes, if something happens to SawStop and in this economy you never know.

[Victor Robinson]

The override requires a key or code? I didn't notice a key hole or keypad when the Woodcraft demo'ed the saw for me.

I'm trying not to be negative or positive, just trying to put out thoughts based on experience. I do think the sawstop tech is great and would be on the top of my list when I buy my first new saw. I do worry about the availability of the brakes, if something happens to SawStop and in this economy you never know.

It's a key. There is a keyhole on the side of the switch box.

[Mike Heidrick]

I own a sawstop ICS. To start the saw in bypass mode you have to arm the saw (by flipping on the smaller switch), you wait until the indicator lights go green, you turn the key (and the light starts flashing), and while turning the key (the key is spring loaded) you flip on the paddle switch and the bl;ade starts spinning. Once you power off the saw you have to repeat the procedure to start it in bypass mode. It defaults to starting with the brake enabled.

[David Kumm]

Competing companies need to get their alternatives out there. The boat has sailed and like it or not, employers will be compelled to replace saws to reduce insurance and legal exposure. Employees will use the SS and in the small companies the owners who work in the field will use the old until they are gone. Given the state of the world you can not assume people will act responsibly but that will just be a cost of operation that will pass to the consumer. Competition needs to develop as SS should not be the only choice. I'm not sure they will be able to produce enough and employers will be between a rock and a hard place until saws are available. If I really want to fantasize I could hope that some the the competing saws would be made here and people would be willing to pay the upcharge for US jobs. Dream on. Dave

[Rob Sack]

800 dollars for a plastic portable saw? You really think that contractors will jump at that? I am guessing the 400-500 you have to spend to get a 744 or a 4100 is pushing it, But I have been wrong before. I loved my 744 for what it could do as aortable saw but I was just barely able to justify the expense over my 99 dollar delta that did 99 percent of what the 744 could do with just a little more hassle. I think Sawstop might want consider that sometimes a product has a market and sometimes no matter what the product is the market isn't there for it. And not to sound stereotypical because I would consider myself a contractor or at least a wanna be one, but the average contractor isn't going to WANT to spend 800 dollars on a job site saw. I'm not saying they won't but I am saying there is a chance they wont. And sub 1000 is probably closer two a grand then it is 800. There high end saw has a market and they have proven they make a great product but that doesn't always translate downwards. Also if they are able to build the brake technology into a portable 800 dollar saw they are going to have a hard time justifying what they charge for it in their high end saw's.

I have a fairly new Sawstop Industrial Cabinet Saw for the shop and a fairly new Bosch 4100 for installations. The cabinet saw even without the electronic safety devices is better than any other saw that I have used in its class, including including the revered Unisaw. The safety features just make it that much better, not to mention safer. Their customer service is the best I have ever encountered. I have yet to call them and not been able to immediately talk to a live, knowledgeable person. No voicemails, no pressing numbers on my telephone keypad to get to where I am going or talk to whom I need to talk. If and when they come out with a jobsite saw, I will be first in line to purchase one, even though the Bosch 4100 I have with the collapsible stand is terrific. I guess there will always be those curmudgeons that will continue to find fault with the Sawstop concept, find fault with the tools that the company manufactures, lament the company's supposedly evil intentions and greed, and if you pardon the sarcasm, claim that Sawstop has destroyed woodworking for all mankind. I would bet that most of these naysayers have never had any direct dealings with the company and/or never spent any real time with their saws. It's their loss.

[Jonathan Smith]

Rob, I'll be second in line after you!

[Mark Engel]

I hope they start selling it in Massachusetts first.

[michael case]

Rob, I'll second you too. People don't get it because the SS company does not sell this point - the industrial is a way better saw. I OWNED a PM 66 -The SS industrial is leagues better.

[Bob Falk]

+1 My Sawstop ICS is a way better saw than the Unisaw I had. I also have a Bosch contractors saw....will sell and get the SS when it comes out.

[Jay MacDougall]

The number one selling brand of what? They certainly are NOT the number one selling table saw brand, not even by a long shot...

I'm not disagreeing but how do you know? I've always been curious who is selling the most saws.

[Don Wacker]

I OWNED a PM 66 -The SS industrial is leagues better.

What makes it Leagues better? How would you compare it to the PM2000 aside from the brake system?

Don

[Neil Brooks]

Rob Sack: you are a man of fine taste, excellent insight, and power tool discernment.

My 5hp ICS is still in mothballs ... until we move, and I set up my new shop.

Meanwhile, my 4100 is a fine little saw :)

[Bill White]

I'm an advocate of safety, but I'm gettin' tired of all the Saw Stop stuff. They've got a good product, but you can hurt yourself a zillion times with all the other tools we use. I'll see if I can stop pocket knife injuries. Not tryin' to be a smart a$$. Just tryin' to be realistic. I've injured myself with a power drill, pinched fingers with a clamp, burned with a propane torch, sanded fingers with a belt sander, beat my fingers with a hammer, and I don't even want to start with crap about sharpening.
Am I in a minority?
Bill (who needs enlightening, or maybe just an old fa@t)

[John Coloccia]

I'm not disagreeing but how do you know? I've always been curious who is selling the most saws.

I can tell you that I've been working at my local Woodcraft one or two days a week for the last year. No one there can remember selling ANYTHING other than a SawStop in recent memory. Certainly not in the last year until recently when I sold a Rikon contractor saw...we brought in a couple because it's a reasonable saw and we were able to offer it at a good price. Other than that, nothing whatsoever except SawStops. It's not like we don't talk about Unisaws and PMs, but then they look at the prices and the SS premium just doesn't really materialize, especially when you toss the PCS into the mix. A PM2000 is $3000+. A Unisaw is right around $3000. A SS ICS is about $3500. The 3HP PCS is under $3000 and that's a heck of a nice saw too...I'd put that up against any 3HP saw on the market, including the Uni and the PM, if it's not in a busy shop or school (both of which will beat up and abuse the saw mercilessly). I usually recommend the ICS to schools because teenagers will break EVERYTHING no matter how well made it is. We had one break the handle off one of the adjustment wheels. If you saw the ICS in person you would scratch your head figuring out how they managed to do that, but they did. They are truly brutal.

The only place they get beat up on price is for the contractor saw, or when you start looking at the cheaper cabinet saws....and then the Unisaw and the PM2000 gets beat up on price too. Even there, the Rikon contractor saw is $900. The equivalent SS model (with cast iron wings) is $1700. The difference is $800, but it's difficult to make a comparison because the SS is a better saw, in my opinion, even if the only difference was the way the guard and riving knife attach. The Rikon just begs you to leave it all off...the SS is trivially easy to switch back and forth.

Anyhow, I don't know how they're calculating their numbers, but I don't find it hard to believe based on what I see everyday. Price really hasn't been a factor except at the low end, and once you're past that the SS pretty much has been selling itself.

[John Coloccia]

BTW, I'm not trying to make a case for or against anything. I'm just telling you the thought process people go through and why they're flying out of the showrooms.

[Doug Colombo]

When I was in the market for a cabinet saw, I looked very closely at the SS ICS and compared it to the new Unisaw. Taking the brake out of the picture and just comparing the saws, I was much more impressed with the Unisaw's features, construction, and up front controls for both angle and riving knife adjustments. The ICS looks to be a great saw, but excluding the brake, I could not agree that it is way better than the new Delta.

[Paul Incognito]

I'm an advocate of safety, but I'm gettin' tired of all the Saw Stop stuff. They've got a good product, but you can hurt yourself a zillion times with all the other tools we use. I'll see if I can stop pocket knife injuries. Not tryin' to be a smart a$$. Just tryin' to be realistic. I've injured myself with a power drill, pinched fingers with a clamp, burned with a propane torch, sanded fingers with a belt sander, beat my fingers with a hammer, and I don't even want to start with crap about sharpening.
Am I in a minority?
Bill (who needs enlightening, or maybe just an old fa@t)
This is what I've wondered all along. Why single out the table saw? There are creative ways to injure yourself on the jobsite or in the shop that we probably haven't even thought of yet.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Sawstop, I've just always wondered.
Paul

[Martin C Wells]

I just retired with 34 years in a prototype shop and have seen a ton of injuries most of which were caused because of people having too much pride to ask for help. When the old Rockwell Int'l Delta TS was replaced, it was by a SS. I only remember one serious saw injury by an untrained person. I did see a lot of scarey close calls but the ugliest injuries were with the 24" disc grinders. After a lot of different kinds of injuries and some OSHA fines and some firings of negligent supervisors, the company became fanatic about safety and additudes slowly changed. The purchase of the SS reflected this change. The SS will not stop all injuries but it show a concern for your employes as valued members of your team.

[Victor Robinson]

I'm an advocate of safety, but I'm gettin' tired of all the Saw Stop stuff. They've got a good product, but you can hurt yourself a zillion times with all the other tools we use. I'll see if I can stop pocket knife injuries. Not tryin' to be a smart a$$. Just tryin' to be realistic. I've injured myself with a power drill, pinched fingers with a clamp, burned with a propane torch, sanded fingers with a belt sander, beat my fingers with a hammer, and I don't even want to start with crap about sharpening.
Am I in a minority?
Bill (who needs enlightening, or maybe just an old fa@t)

Just because you can't protect yourself from all your tools doesn't mean it's absurd to protect yourself from some. Also, the injuries you mention don't usually result in amputation or come with life-altering consequences. Tablesaw injuries tend to. Now it's true you can end up with debilitating injuries from the jointer, bandsaw, router table, etc., but either we don't have good statistics on those or they just don't seem to be as frequent. Think outside of your woodworker box for a second. Tablesaws are just used a heck of a lot more than the other flesh-mangling devices we tend to talk about (by DIYers, contractors, construction workers, etc.). That's in part why TS injuries are more common, and that's why the TS is the focus of all of this.

[Don Wacker]

I disagree with the suposed frequency of tablesaw blade contact injuries. Ive done this professionaly for 25 years and have never seen, known or even heard mention of a tablesaw blade contact injury. The only person ive met that had a tablesaw injury was a shop teacher, come to find out years later he lied. His finger was really shot off in ww2. Ive got myself a short finger but that was a RAS and way to much beer in my younger bullet proof years.:)Don

[Victor Robinson]

I disagree with the suposed frequency of tablesaw blade contact injuries. Ive done this professionaly for 25 years and have never seen, known or even heard mention of a tablesaw blade contact injury. The only person ive met that had a tablesaw injury was a shop teacher, come to find out years later he lied. His finger was really shot off in ww2. Ive got myself a short finger but that was a RAS and way to much beer in my younger bullet proof years.:)Don

I don't see a reason for docs/hospitals to conspire to report a false or inflated number. At best you could argue that the docs making those calls don't gather enough information to correctly attribute the cause of injury (e.g. kickback vs. no blade guard vs. freak accident vs. not paying attention and touching blade, etc.), but either way I'm not sure the people reporting the injuries have any incentive to inflate the overall numbers.

[Don Wacker]

I don't see a reason for docs/hospitals to conspire to report a false or inflated number. At best you could argue that the docs making those calls don't gather enough information to correctly attribute the cause of injury (e.g. kickback vs. no blade guard vs. freak accident vs. not paying attention and touching blade, etc.), but either way I'm not sure the people reporting the injuries have any incentive to inflate the overall numbers.What numbers. Where are the posted stats for specific equipment.

[John Coloccia]

I worked with robots and lasers for 15 years. I never saw anyone get injured with a robot or a laser. I guess we should not wear laser eye protection and we should remove all the light curtains and interlocks from out robots. Incidentally, less than a year after I left my first robotics company, a tech lost his thumb. I also yanked some young Taiwanese kid out of one of our robots a second before he got his head smushed because he decided to defeat one of our interlocks.

I've seen dozens of customers walk into Woodcraft with missing digits. I had one guy show up RIGHT after he had an accident and was just coming in from the hospital ER, loopy from the pain meds. I had to clean up all the blood he was dripping on the floor (he didn't know what was going on...I was tempted to get him a taxi but I discovered his wife or friend was in the car). I usually ask them how they got hurt. It's nearly always from the table saw and it's nearly always "I was doing something stupid...". Yeah, well it was their fault but I don't feel like a technology that could help mitigate some of the injuries should be scorned just because some feel like it's right and just that they should be punished for it.

I've been to the ER myself several times for handtool accidents...a sharp chisel and a small moment of inattention can do a lot of damage. When I tell them I got hurt with woodworking tools, they always tell me how lucky I am that I wasn't "like the guy we saw a couple of days ago". Always a table saw accident.

Really, use whatever table saw you want and work with whatever guards you want, but keep it an informed decision based on the best info you have.

edit: actually, that's not true now that I think of it. I've given myself little burns working with high power lasers because I didn't take all the precautions I should have, but the burns were relatively minor and it was an acceptable risk in my opinion. If the lasers were capable of chopping off my fingers, I would have been more careful.

[Mike Henderson]

What numbers. Where are the posted stats for specific equipment.
I don't remember the source, but if you go to the CPSC web site and read the latest stuff about the proposal, it gives the source. And I'm pretty sure you can access the original source on the web. It's been a while since I read the proposal so I don't remember the source right now.

Mike

[James Carmichael]

Sure that is true but the original statement I was replying to was "Sawstops from industrial to hobbyist grades are the number one selling brand"

I'm curious as to what their share of the contractor's saw market is. I can't see it being much, most contractors saws are in the hands of home hobbyists, and $1600 is a hefty price tag when you can get a Grizzly cabinet saw for less and the Ridgid contractor's saw was about one-third that last time I looked at HD.

Yes, I know, what price do we put on fingers, but as a hobbiyist woodworker with little extra time, I really can't justify $1600 for any saw. If I could, it would be extremely hard to go with the SS contractor's saw over a cabinet saw, especially when I can get the latter for substantially less by shopping the used market.

[John Coloccia]

I'm curious as to what their share of the contractor's saw market is. I can't see it being much, most contractors saws are in the hands of home hobbyists, and $1600 is a hefty price tag when you can get a Grizzly cabinet saw for less and the Ridgid contractor's saw was about one-third that last time I looked at HD.

Yes, I know, what price do we put on fingers, but as a hobbiyist woodworker with little extra time, I really can't justify $1600 for any saw. If I could, it would be extremely hard to go with the SS contractor's saw over a cabinet saw, especially when I can get the latter for substantially less by shopping the used market.

You know, I've wondered about this too...I wonder about their contractor saw market also. I don't actually know anyone but me that's purchased the contractor saw and I don't know ANY contractors that have either. I think a lot were like me in that they don't really need a cabinet saw because we're mainly just doing straight line rips and occasionally breaking down stock by cross cutting. As soon as the PCS came out the contractor saw became a really poor value for someone like me. I wonder if this smaller saw isn't actually a replacement for the contractor saw as it seems to me the contractor saw is at a very awkward price point, it's more than many cabinet saws, it's approaching their PCS in price, and it weighs a ton. If I were a contractor, I don't think I'd buy it, and as a hobbyist if I had $1700+ to spend, there's no way I wouldn't just buy their PCS today.

[Victor Robinson]

What numbers. Where are the posted stats for specific equipment.

NEISS is the electronic database for consumer product-related injuries - it's a good starting point for research. However, the documents which are immediately available (e.g 2009 highlights) group all power saws into one category. You'd have to dig some more to separate out tablesaw injuries.

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/neiss.html

[Victor Robinson]

You know, I've wondered about this too...I wonder about their contractor saw market also. I don't actually know anyone but me that's purchased the contractor saw and I don't know ANY contractors that have either. I think a lot were like me in that they don't really need a cabinet saw because we're mainly just doing straight line rips and occasionally breaking down stock by cross cutting. As soon as the PCS came out the contractor saw became a really poor value for someone like me. I wonder if this smaller saw isn't actually a replacement for the contractor saw as it seems to me the contractor saw is at a very awkward price point, it's more than many cabinet saws, it's approaching their PCS in price, and it weighs a ton. If I were a contractor, I don't think I'd buy it, and as a hobbyist if I had $1700+ to spend, there's no way I wouldn't just buy their PCS today.

Totally agree. *

[Peter Aeschliman]

I disagree with the suposed frequency of tablesaw blade contact injuries. Ive done this professionaly for 25 years and have never seen, known or even heard mention of a tablesaw blade contact injury. The only person ive met that had a tablesaw injury was a shop teacher, come to find out years later he lied. His finger was really shot off in ww2. Ive got myself a short finger but that was a RAS and way to much beer in my younger bullet proof years.:)Don

I don't mean to slam you here, but you are only one person. Clearly one person's experience (or the 30 or so you've met) is not a big enough sample from which to extrapolate a population-wide injury rate.

I'm glad that you and your friends haven't lost fingers though!

[Don Wacker]

I don't mean to slam you here, but you are only one person. Clearly one person's experience (or the 30 or so you've met) is not a big enough sample from which to extrapolate a population-wide injury rate.

I'm glad that you and your friends haven't lost fingers though!

Its all good and we all have the right to our opinion. I for one am not anti safety nor anti sawstop more so anti Steve Gass and his partners. I believe the numbers are inflated and are not properly categorized. Ive posed this question to the chief of staff at a major US hospital and he was quick to inform that the injuries are usually just classed as circular, band or oscillating and are not separated by table vs skil or ras. In my own experience I don't recall the ER ever asking how I shortened my own index finger.
IMO Saw stop could give a rats a*& about our fingers and this is all about money. They were hoping to sit in they're law firm and suck in license fees of 8% of wholesale and have a nice padded retirement. When that failed they went to the same people that produce PM, Jet, griz and other to have their own saws made. IMO this is an attempt to show the government that people are interested and that other manufacturers should use their device. I dont honestly believe that if they actually succeed they will even continue to produce saws. Their saws are just a backup plan for a failed business en devour. They dont indemnify anyone that uses their products, so really how much do they really trust the product. Would they cover my butt if an employee sued me due to a sawstop device that didnt save his finger. I doubt it but you can count on the fact that the faulty equipment suit would be mine alone. Even the company that make the surge protector for my computer covers the loss if it fails. They do this because they have faith in their own product. Other than talk and agendas sawstop is not stepping up to the plate. PM Ryobi and others would be happy to use their product if they actually stood behind it. As I see it they are just greedy lawyers, no im not anti lawyer I married mine. There is just to much politics and lawyer crap involved with sawstop. Give the company to someone that actually cares, let them produce saws and not push their agendas on others and sawstop would be a great company. They need to spend less time in the office and politicin (red neck) and spend more time developing products for other machine to build an honest company.

Don

[mreza Salav]

Its all good and we all have the right to our opinion. I for one am not anti safety nor anti sawstop more so anti Steve Gass and his partners. I believe the numbers are inflated and are not properly categorized. Ive posed this question to the chief of staff at a major US hospital and he was quick to inform that the injuries are usually just classed as circular, band or oscillating and are not separated by table vs skil or ras. In my own experience I don't recall the ER ever asking how I shortened my own index finger.
IMO Saw stop could give a rats a*& about our fingers and this is all about money. They were hoping to sit in they're law firm and suck in license fees of 8% of wholesale and have a nice padded retirement. When that failed they went to the same people that produce PM, Jet, griz and other to have their own saws made. IMO this is an attempt to show the government that people are interested and that other manufacturers should use their device. I dont honestly believe that if they actually succeed they will even continue to produce saws. Their saws are just a backup plan for a failed business en devour. They dont indemnify anyone that uses their products, so really how much do they really trust the product. Would they cover my butt if an employee sued me due to a sawstop device that didnt save his finger. I doubt it but you can count on the fact that the faulty equipment suit would be mine alone. Even the company that make the surge protector for my computer covers the loss if it fails. They do this because they have faith in their own product. Other than talk and agendas sawstop is not stepping up to the plate. PM Ryobi and others would be happy to use their product if they actually stood behind it. As I see it they are just greedy lawyers, no im not anti lawyer I married mine. There is just to much politics and lawyer crap involved with sawstop. Give the company to someone that actually cares, let them produce saws and not push their agendas on others and sawstop would be a great company. They need to spend less time in the office and politicin (red neck) and spend more time developing products for other machine to build an honest company.

Don


Just to reply to your earlier question about the statistics, here are some you can look into:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf

In short:

In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that “93,880 saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms”. Of these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%).

As for if there are more serious injuries from blade contact or kick back here is another piece:

"Of the 79,500 total emergency department-treated injuries associated with table saws in 2007 and 2008, an estimated 76,100 injuries were sustained
by operators of the table saws. Of the injuries to table saw operators, an estimated 66,900 injuries (88%) involved blade contact"

from:
www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/brief/tablesaw.pdf (http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/brief/tablesaw.pdf)

[James Carmichael]

Just to reply to your earlier question about the statistics, here are some you can look into:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf

In short:

In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that “93,880 saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms”. Of these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%).



An interesting stat would be to graph the accidents per hours of operation for each tool. I'm sure that exists somewhere, but probably only for commercial shops (hmm, commercial vs consumer???).

Except for the band saw, I expect the the percentages above would map pretty closely to the annual hours of operation, though I'm sure that's small comfort to those who lost digits on a band saw.

[Jay MacDougall]

I can tell you that I've been working at my local Woodcraft one or two days a week for the last year. No one there can remember selling ANYTHING other than a SawStop in recent memory. Certainly not in the last year until recently when I sold a Rikon contractor saw...we brought in a couple because it's a reasonable saw and we were able to offer it at a good price. Other than that, nothing whatsoever except SawStops. It's not like we don't talk about Unisaws and PMs, but then they look at the prices and the SS premium just doesn't really materialize, especially when you toss the PCS into the mix. A PM2000 is $3000+. A Unisaw is right around $3000. A SS ICS is about $3500. The 3HP PCS is under $3000 and that's a heck of a nice saw too...I'd put that up against any 3HP saw on the market, including the Uni and the PM, if it's not in a busy shop or school (both of which will beat up and abuse the saw mercilessly). I usually recommend the ICS to schools because teenagers will break EVERYTHING no matter how well made it is. We had one break the handle off one of the adjustment wheels. If you saw the ICS in person you would scratch your head figuring out how they managed to do that, but they did. They are truly brutal.

The only place they get beat up on price is for the contractor saw, or when you start looking at the cheaper cabinet saws....and then the Unisaw and the PM2000 gets beat up on price too. Even there, the Rikon contractor saw is $900. The equivalent SS model (with cast iron wings) is $1700. The difference is $800, but it's difficult to make a comparison because the SS is a better saw, in my opinion, even if the only difference was the way the guard and riving knife attach. The Rikon just begs you to leave it all off...the SS is trivially easy to switch back and forth.

Anyhow, I don't know how they're calculating their numbers, but I don't find it hard to believe based on what I see everyday. Price really hasn't been a factor except at the low end, and once you're past that the SS pretty much has been selling itself.


I tend to agree with you, the person I was questioning thinks Sawstop is not even close to the top selling table saw.

[Greg Peterson]

IMO Saw stop could give a rats a*& about our fingers and this is all about money. They were hoping to sit in they're law firm and suck in license fees of 8% of wholesale and have a nice padded retirement. When that failed they went to the same people that produce PM, Jet, griz and other to have their own saws made. IMO this is an attempt to show the government that people are interested and that other manufacturers should use their device.

Don

I don't begrudge them wanting to get their 8% or whatever the figure really is. Why shouldn't the inventor be rewarded?

Failing to get the manufacturers to adopt their technology they brought their own product to market. Again, I don't see a problem here.

They lobbied for a regulation that would essentially force their product into the market. Well, that's how the free market works sometimes. What have they done that is illegal?

Mind you I think it is a bit slimey too, but honestly, what laws have they broken?

You want a free market or a fair market? Can't have both.

[Peter Aeschliman]

You want a free market or a fair market? Can't have both.

That's a great quote!

[Van Huskey]

I don't begrudge them wanting to get their 8% or whatever the figure really is. Why shouldn't the inventor be rewarded?

.

I think from the point of view of the manufacturers the 8% was out of line since it is significantly more than normal trade practice, fairly or not. The other issue was Mr. Gass and his partners being unwilling to accept any liability. Although in hindsight it might not seem like the smart decision it probably was for the manufacturers at the time. Taking on full liability for a completly unproven, at the time, safety feature with potentially huge exposure and paying significantly more than the going rate for the rights more often than not would be a supremely poor choice in the business world. Mr. Gass believed in his product enough to take the huge risk and it has paid dividends for him. From that perspective I have zero qualms with what he did, I am on the fence about his political approach to the situation. BTW I did find it humorous that you characterized his lobby for regulations as free market, technically it is pretty close to the opposite of a free market, that being govermental regulation as to what can be sold. Not saying a level of this is not required in our society!

I wouldn't bet for or against a bench top SS taking the world by storm, it is a highly complex equation and I certainly can't get into the head of the average bench top saw user, I would say they wil,l IMHO, HAVE to have BORG distribution to get a large market penetration. I will say if they universally replaced all the other benchtop saws tomorrow I would expect the number of tablesaw blade injuries to drop by 80+%, there is little question in my mind that benchtop saws cause the most table saw blade to flesh injuries by a large margin.

[Greg Peterson]

BTW I did find it humorous that you characterized his lobby for regulations as free market, technically it is pretty close to the opposite of a free market, that being govermental regulation as to what can be sold. Not saying a level of this is not required in our society!

Yeah, lobbying for a state or federal mandate for your product is really the opposite of what we commonly consider the free market. But one does have to consider that what Gass has done is no different than the other tens of thousands of registered lobbyist in Washington do, day in and day out, to keep the free market 'free'.

This is how the 'free market' works these days.