Problems with ignorance!!!!!!

[Dwight McNutt]

Well tried to make a Christmas ornament this weekend, and it didn’t turn (pun intended) to well. Having trouble getting the ball round with a spindle gouge. Don’t know if it’s the grind or the fact that I don’t know what I’m doing. My guess would be the latter or both to tell the truth. Should I be cutting above center, at center, or below center with the gouge. If the pictures make it and you see a glaring problem, please let me know. About the only thing worse than my turning skills???? ,is my picture taking skills. I think the bevel is at 40 degrees and I’m having a bear of a time entering the cut without the gouge skating with me. Picture of the new Delta and the Sorby estate tools.

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[Josh Bowman]

The gouge looks ok, if it's sharp. Generally you should be at center. If you cutting a ball, then it's just a giant bead and you should determine the center (horizontally) and rub the bevel. The raise the handle until it just starts cutting, while rubbing the bevel. The roll left, then go back to the original position and roll right. If all else fails get a skew and use it like a scraper, horizontal on the tool rest and rock it side to side to make the ball. I turned like that since 1980, the finish is kind of rough but a lot of sanding will fix that.
Video of using a gouge and one using a scraper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aSVVja7sl8

http://www.ehow.com/video_4945056_bead-cut-scraper-woodturning.html (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aSVVja7sl8)

[Jim Burr]

So how about some turnings pic's Dwight?? On the iffy side...is that a 6" wheel? Diameter makes a difference!

[Dan Hintz]

Maybe it's just the pictures, but I could swear you have a slight dip in the tip of the gouge, rather than completely rounded. If the tip does not have a smooth curve from wing to wing, but instead goes straight across at a point (or worse, dips inward), you're bound to have a nasty catch.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I noticed the same thing as Dan. My spindle gouges are more round on the tip rather than a dip and all of my spindle gouges have a bevel angle of 37*. I would definitely put more point on it. These are Thompson gouges and I am sharpening them with the same angle as I got them. Your gouge angle doesn't look right but it may be the pictures to. As Josh said ride the bevel and roll to the right or left.

[John Keeton]

Dwight, your grind looks a bit steep for my tastes. You might want to look at the chart below that was taken from Doug Thompson's site - it may be helpful to you. Generally, spindle gouges are ground to a more shallow angle than are bowl gouges.

[Nick Stagg]

Dan and Bernie spotted most of your problem.......the gouge tip has a dip in it which means the wings enter the wood before the tip does. You think you have contact and before you know it, the tool skates. If you round the tip to an even curve that will help a lot. Try using your thumb on the tool rest as a "stop" until you're in the wood, it will help enormously.

John noticed the angle, it's too steep for what you're doing. You can check that easily with a Hardware store $10 angle finder.

Do you have any turners close by to help, or offer advice? That will cut the frustration level to zero if you do. Don't struggle by yourself, I did, and it's miserable.

Good luck

[Jamie Donaldson]

No cuts are possible when the wood is spinning and the tool is below center, because the wood surface is moving away the tool, but your spindle gouge grind looks OK. Turning a round form is not an easy job, especially for a beginner just learning how to use turning tools, but practice will lead to improved results.

[Reed Gray]

Well, it looks more flat rather than a dip, or concave to me, which would change a bit how it cuts, but nothing drastic. More pointy is a detail gouge, more flat is more of a continental style gouge. The skating as others have said is the cutting edge hitting the wood first, and do rub the bevel first, then pivot the handle till it just starts to cut.

For cutting a sphere, I start at the edges, and nibble my way back to the center. Also, as you are getting closer, take some thing round (ball, washer, large coin, tape roll, etc.) and hold it between your eyes and the piece you are turning. Move it in and/or out to see the curve of the round piece and what your are turning. That will help you see a better curve line.

robo hippy

[Scott Hackler]

Balls are a task, for sure. I have been working on some balls for ornament bulbs and its definitely getting easier to "get close" to a pretty round sphere, but mine aren't perfect.

Practice....practice... practice.....or buy a ball jig!!! :)

[Steve Mawson]

Practice helps for sure, I am on my 6th ornament and they are getting easier. I do like Reed says and start at the outside, start nibbling off the corners working toward the center. As I finish a cut the gouge is almost vertical on the outside of the ball. I try to make each side identical but don't worry too much if they are slightly different.

[Curt Fuller]

Everyone seems to have their own preference, but I find that rounding an ornament, or any bead like shape, is easier with a skew, even if you're scraping a little with the skew. There is certainly a learning curve for following the curve with a gouge and then you have to (or at least I have to) switch hands and turn left handed to get around the other side. Keep practicing. No one gets it right the first time or every time.

Now this is just my 2 cents, but I think ornaments look better if the ball isn't perfectly round. I'm fond of the old "rule of thirds principal" when shaping the balls, with an oval shape that is largest about 1/3 of the way down from the top. Just a thought.

[Dwight McNutt]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Will ground on gouge more tommorow and see what happens. I do have 8 inch wheels on my grinder, and I thought I had a 40* bevel on the gouge. Does it need swept back wings, if so how far. Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks Dwight

[Dan Hintz]

Does it need swept back wings, if so how far.
Sweep the wings back as far as you feel comfortable when using it. I sweep mine back as far as possible so I don't catch them on anything and I have a long edge to shave with, though tastes vary. I haven't done any real spindle work to speak of, just bowls, so take that with a grain of salt..

[Rob Wachala Jr]

I just turned my first ornament this weekend, out of some xmas tree cut offs from last year. What I did was draw a line down what I wanted to be the center of the sphere, took a gouge and just started on line and rolled it over. I'm horrible at making spheres but this method seemed to work for me. Then I hollowed out with a small bowl gouge. No fancy hollowing tools here... though I'm thinking of purchasing one now. I had a real hard time judging how thin walls are and trying to get in at an angle was a pain.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Dwight,
Ignorance is not a word that applies here, merely a lack of instruction and practice. Ease up on yourself. In addition to a suitable grind, and there are several, technique is really important when turning a bead. (A ball is just a big bead). Personally, I believe turning a round shape on a bowl with a bowl gouge is easier than making a good bead with a spindle gouge. Here is something I learned. The bulk of the cut is made with the side of the tool just behind the tip; the right side as you move right and the left cutting that direction. You will begin with the handle slightly lower than the tip since the tool rest is at the mid point and as you roll the bead the handle will come up to allow you to follow the shape while keeping the bevel on the bead. It's one smooth move and takes practice. Stay off the tip, turn the tool to the right and raise the handle at the same time as you cut from center to side. The handle will finish higher depending on the size of the ball. Have fun.
faust

[Don Alexander]

actually ignorance is exactly the right word as ignorance simply means "lack of knowledge" which is not insulting its just a fixable state of being

in direct opposition to "dumb" or stupid" which denotes an inability to learn which is not a fixable state of being

so with that said .... this is a great place to reduce the totality of "ignorance" particularly as it applies to turning things on a lathe

many very experienced , very knowledgable and very willing to share people here

you have shown intelligence by coming to these people with your questions (which i am sure is not exactly a surprise to anyone)

lots of good tips and suggestions coupled with lots of practice and you will be an accomplished maker of ornaments posthaste