Rubo bench size & other questions

[Mike Holbrook]

I want to build a Rubo style bench but I have a couple questions. I have a copy of Hand Tool Essentials which contains plans & suggestions for making this workbench. I think there are a good many other plans for this type bench that others have used. I even think Chris Schwarz may have done plans other than the article & plans he did in Hand Tool Essentials

Size is my first question. I know that some say to make it 8', but this seems quite large to me. Steve Branam in an article on building this bench he did on his Blog Close Grain apparently made his 7' which seems like a better length to me. I think the argument for 8' is that a bench this long can hold an 8' board for edge planing. My question is whether or not it would make a significant difference if 6" were hanging off each end? Although I would like an 8' bench my shop is underground with no windows to put it under. My walls are also otherwise occupied. I am thinking about putting the bench in the center of the room, where my table saw is now. The table saw I plan to put in a side storage room that I can close off, to reduce escaping dust during the few times I will use it for large ripping jobs. I am thinking the longer the bench the less I will like having to walk around it over the coming years. I am planing to use the pinky/knuckle height calculation.

Materials- Chris suggests ripping the boards for the top from 10-12 inch wide southern pine construction grade (2x-X)stock available at Lowe's. His rational is the wider stock is typically better, less knotty, wood than 2x4 stock. I am wondering if I can turn this wood into something reasonable for a bench top using hand tools and my trusty Festool saw & table? I think the Festool saw will allow me to rip boards from the wide stock that could be easily dressed with hand planes for glue up? I would rather use the Festool saw than the table saw because of the better dust control. I do not have a jointer or lunch box planer. The design I have suggests cutting & glueing the 2X stock such that the mortises and tenons are created by the gluing up process.

Any suggestions regarding doing this project with my limited power tools & growing hand tool collection are appreciated.

[Tony Shea]

The length of your bench is totally up to what your shop can handle. It is true that the longer you can make it the better. If I had room for a 10' or 12' bench I would do it. IMO, your bench cannot be too long. Imagine being able to glue up a panel and place it on one end of your bench and in the meantime still be able to work on the other end. Also, having all the tools that you'll need during a session of work all on your bench top without concern of dumping them over the edge is another valuable reason. The reasons for a long bench are endless. But in the real world of budget and space limitations there are unfortunatly many comprimises one needs to consider. In my shop I have room for a 6'6" to 7' bench at most. I went 6'6" just to get me the small amount of walking room. I'm always wishing it was longer.

Your stock selection is another very personal decision. You'll need to weigh your budget and species availability in your area. And the reason he says to use the 2x10 or 12" constuction lumber is the quality is usually higher. But again, this is what is available to you. In my area in Maine I have no source for SYP. I went the Doug Fir route and have been happy with it, but do wish I shelled the small increase in $ to make it maple. The harder wood would be very welcome but most of all I would really appreciate the lighter color. Having maple in the background to sight down my planes is very nice.

[James Owen]

As a general rule of thumb, longer is better -- subject, of course, to shop size limitations. If it will fit in your shop and leave you room to move around, etc., I would go for the 8 foot bench; you won't regret having the extra bench-top real estate. My current bench is an 8 foot Sjöbergs that I frequently wish was longer....

Here in New Mexico, maple is prohibitively expensive ($7 to $10 per board foot) for things like benches. Even the (Douglas Fir) 2 X 10s and 2 X 12s here tend to be wet, warped, twisted, and full of knots (although not quite as bad as the narrower dimensions....), so my solution was untreated 4 X 6s. Those, somewhat surprisingly, were pretty dry, relatively knot-free, nice & straight, and with very little twist. Plus, the thicker wood means fewer glue-ups. You'll also have the choice of a bench top of either about 3-1/2" thick (plenty thick for almost anything) or a little over 5" thick (now you're getting into historical Roubo thickness territory....). If you can find similar 4 X 4s or 4 x 6s in your area, you might consider using them. As a bonus, it turned out that the 4 X 6s were less expensive than the equivalent number of 2 X 12s required to build a bench top of the same dimensions.....

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

I agree, have a look around all the lumber options. I made the top of my bench from two 6x6 posts with a tool well on the back. It was really nice to only have to joint two faces and do one glue up for the whole bench. The legs are 4x4, and I used a 2x12 ripped to two 2x6 for the stretchers and walls of the tool well.

Also, my bench is 6 feet long (absolutely the longest it can be for the space it's in, and even then it blocks part of the doorway). I haven't done any projects where I needed it longer, but extra length can't hurt to have.

[Jim Koepke]

Bench size and materials are all dependent on the person who will be using the bench.

If you work with 8' long stock, it is a hassle to hold it on a 5' bench. I know, I do it all the time. A few inches hanging over the end is not a big deal for edge jointing. Even smoothing a large panel can be done with a little overhang and some inconvenience.

Of course, the space you have to work in might not allow a bigger bench.

From what others have posted you can surmise why you seldom hear people say, "my bench is too big for the work I do."

It is imaginable that someone who makes doll furniture may thing that about a big bench. More often we hear of people saying they would like a bench a bit bigger than what they have.

A lot of things in a bench are personal and should be considered based on how one works. Many people do not like tool wells on their bench. When my bench gets built, it will have one.

A lot of folks do not like an apron on their bench. I have not decided yet if my bench will have an apron or not. So far, they seem to come in handy for the way I work.


I am thinking the longer the bench the less I will like having to walk around it over the coming years. I am planing to use the pinky/knuckle height calculation.

As far as the height goes, you may want to make it a little taller than your knuckles. It is easy to make it a bit shorter if needed, but difficult to make it taller. If you have worked on a bench at the height and know it is good for you, then ignore this comment.

Another thought is that I always wish my bench was a few inches deeper. Especially when making chairs and something has to be clamped to the bench to allow all four legs to fit on the bench.

You might want to look for local sawyers in your area to see if you might find lumber to your liking at a better cost to work ratio.

jtk

[Jake Rothermel]

Sigh...Years ago I had a scene shop wall rack full of 3x6 red oak. It was from a local steel yard for transporting large I-beams, as pallets, really. It was oily and gross at the surface [and full of tiny steel fragments that LOVED to eat blades, of any kind] but once you got down about a 1/4" or so it was gorgeous wood, mostly. The longest boards were around 10' long. I still wish I'd been able to tag a bunch of it for a workbench. It would have been sweet.

[Mike Holbrook]

How would one figure multiple work benches into the size issue? I actually have three work benches now. One is the original "bench" I made from an old Time Life book on woodworking. It is a doubled 2x4 frame with a double 3/4" plywood top ( 66' x 24"), with edging & a masonite cover. It has an old Record Quick Release vise on it. I had a couple projects I needed to do quickly for which I bought, a sale bench from Highland Woodworking, Hammer Compact (55" x 20"). The second bench though small has two vises. One vise serves as a tail vise. Although it is a small bench it was big enough to handle the projects I needed it for. The third bench is actually a Festool table, which may not actually be a bench but it performs some of the functions of a bench. The original bench is about to be made into a cabinet to feed dogs and maybe sharpen on. It sits in a room just off my shop where my 4 German shepherds live. So in the shop I may have the Hammer bench and the Festool table as well as the new bench. I am also considering putting the Compact Hammer bench in another building on the property, which serves our kennel, dog club...I need cabinets,chairs, tables for this building and it may be convenient to work there in the time gaps while I am watching dogs...

My shop is about 20' x 15' with a 14' x 11 1/2' room next to it for storage of wood, painting gear...The shop is under ground with no windows so I am thinking about moving the table saw into the storage room and locating the new Rubo Bench in the center of the main shop floor. The Festool table, work supports, vac are against one long wall. The small Inca band saw and Floor stand-Drill Press Share shop floor space. I have a Millers Falls Mitre Box & saw, lost in the USPS at the moment, which I plan to locate on a cabinet with solid work supports. There is also a 1 1/2" & 2" belt sander located on another cabinet. I just bought the wood to make Chris Schwarz's stacking sawbench & sawhorse. I have a large amount of wall space covered in a grooved tool support system with all sorts of devices for hanging tools, bins for fastners, containers & supporting shelves.

The main devise I am interested in having on the Rubo style bench is a leg vise with sliding dead man. The other clamping system I am sold on is round dogs in the top to use with my Gramercy holdfasts. I am thinking about a Moxon type vise that can be attached to the Rubo when needed. I think the Hammer bench & Festool table & clamps can clamp work for surface planing as well or better than a tail vise, as could the top of the Rubo with a few bench jigs. I want to be able to work surfaces, edges and end grain with maximum aplomb though.

I like the Benchcrafted Glide leg vise hardware & Moxon vise hardware if I can bring myself to spend the money. I like Derek Cohen's design for a "Tail Board" to compliment a Moxon vise. The two together sort of make an adjustable bench-bench for working at greater heights & supporting longer pieces. Since I have been building wood planes that are taller than metal planes my bench top probably needs to be toward the low side. I am thinking about making Derek's Moxon Vise design & Tail Board using the Benchcrafted hardware. It seems to me this is a better vise than a large permanent double screw vise as it provides the same functions but does not have to occupy the large space on the side of the bench permanently. It also gives me a way to do jobs at a low & high height on the same bench.

A true tail vise is the one I question the need for. I guess I could take the Record quick release vise off my old bench and mount it on the end of the Rubo, in line with the surface holes it could provide the same functions as a conventional tail vise and give me a quick small capacity vise. I just doubt I will need it and know I want like bumping into it. The Benchcrafted tail vise hardware or a european style tail vise seems like expensive, difficult to add ways to duplicate clamping abilities that can be performed better in other ways. I would like to leave as much of the bench top unencumbered by permanent vises as possible as too many vises just seem to obstruct the clamping of work to the top.

[rick carpenter]

You can make a shorter bench out of a longer bench with the right design. But not vice versa.

[Mike Holbrook]

I suppose I could use 8' boards and just not worry about the bench ending up a little less than 8' after trimming. I suspect quality longer boards will be harder to find and more costly. I know there are lots of plans out there and they can all be changed but, the plan I have been studying in Hand Tool Essentials uses 2x? boards creating mortises & tenons in the gluing up process. Certainly this plan provides a fast may to build a bench without compromising on quality.

[Trevor Walsh]

I think the Moxon is a great idea, I've used the Tools for Working Wood one extensively at the Philly Furniture Workshop. With an end vise of some sort I think you wouldn't necessarily need a front vise.

[Matthew Hills]

8' isn't too long, in general.
6' would be about the minimum I'd consider.

Do note that a lot of end vises require quite a bit of space to install (i.e., leg can't be too close).

Having extra work surface is generally good, but... too wide can be a problem. And in a small shop, you'll want to balance against other space needs. (i.e., if you're moving to a lot of hand tools, having a separate area for sharpening is probably worth more than having an extra foot or two on your main bench.)

If you're going to put your bench in the middle of the shop, give some thought to how you'll access your tools. (some people mount tool holders on their bench for temporary storage of their tools while they are in-use, others try to keep the bench close to walls/cabinets so they can just turn around and grab the tool from its storage spot)

Matt

[Jim Foster]

I recently built a Roubo (Need to add the front vice) and it's 9' long and 25" wide. The 25" width is a result of the final glue-ups being more work than I thought it was worth to get to 24". The width seems very good (24" would probably be more "correct") and I like the 9' length a lot. M opinion is to build the bench as long as possible. You can always make it shorter, but you can't make it longer. The other suggestion I would make is if you can find 4x6 or 6x6 construction lumber that is reasonably priced, it would be less work to hand-dress and a lot less gluing. Also, If I ever build another bench, I"ll make it longer if space permits 10'-12' Also, the 2x12stock worked out pretty well, I could cull out bad knots, etc. and still have 5" wide rough boards to start with, but I'm gong to go with 6x6 or 4x6 lumber if I ever build another bench

[Jim Matthews]

I'm a fan of the fixtures re-introduced with the recent Roubo coverage, but I'm not convinced that the mass or complicated base joinery are necessary to make a solid bench.

The Ron Breese/Benchcrafted Shaker bench has most of the features I need, without the complicated base assembly of the Roubo.

I adapted a bench on cabinet design with a crochet, flush leg and sliding deadman. Instead of a leg vise (Benchcrafted or Hovarter), I used Veritas hold downs.
The bench top, flush leg (left) and sliding deadman are drilled with parallel rows of 3/4" diameter holes. The base cabinet (less the topmost drawer) provides sufficient mass and stiffness.
(Not bad for $50 off Craigslist.)

Following Derek Cohen's lead, I built a variant using pipeclamps. It has proven to be the most useful tool in my shop.

The Cheapo Pipe clamp Moxxon has been VERY useful, and will be retrofitted with veneer press screws from Wetzler.
I find the length of my bench at 6 feet too short. While this can be augmented with a stand, clamping at either bench end is difficult.

I think the length of the bench should be enough to allow clamping at either end. This bench top will be replaced to allow for this.
The front must be flush, for clamping, but the rear should also have overhang for clamping.
This should be determined by the base dimensions. That should be set by the available space in a given shop; how long of a walk do you want to take?

My last bench had an Emmert K-1 and Oliver quick release vise in the modern layout. They have not been missed.

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[Mike Holbrook]

I like the ideas above. Jim I only see the one Veritas "hold down" in your pictures. What I actually see is called a Surface Clamp on the Lee Valley site. Do you use a second Surface Clamp, Hold Down to secure the other end of longer pieces of wood? I like the idea of leaving off the leg vise and using the crochet instead. Especially if others testify they have found the crochet to secure work well? The only issue I see with a crochet is work can not extend through it like it can with a leg vise. I guess this is one more reason for a little longer bench. Like Jim, I like the idea of less encumbered (by vises) bench edges, particularly on the ends & corners. There are several other very interesting Veritas bench accessories that I might prefer to have than a tail or leg vise: Bench Blade, Surface Vise, Surface Clamp, Hold Down, Bench Anchors, Wonder Dog & Wonder Pup, Set of Pups, Bench Dogs & Muzzles.... There is quite an impressive array of Veritas bench accessories that work on the top or side of a bench. One of the issues with a tail vises is they are typically powerful enough to bow a work piece adding a whole new set of challenges. I think the smaller less powerful, movable Veritas devices that do some similar work would not be as likely to bow work. I do wonder how fast the toggles on the ends of some of these devices work? I think I will make a separate post to explore the use of the various Veritas bench accessories.

The whole issue of the space under a bench causes much head scratching for me. Schwarz and many others prefer the simplicity of a top without a well and base without tool capacity. I am one of those people, apparently Jim is too, who have a mental problem with leaving that space blank when it could be put to work. Unfortunately I am also the kind of guy who will fill a tool well and not get around to clearing it out. I kinda like the idea of one big shelf under the bench top, so tools "in use" can be kept near but out of the way. A shelf under the bench top would reduce dust on the items there and be a great place to store bench jigs & accessories like all those Veritas accessories. My main shop floor is small enough so I would not have to go far to get items along either of the long walls with the bench in the middle of the room.

I think if I go with a longer bench it may end up closer to the long wall with the most tool & fastener housing devices on it though. The other long wall now houses Festool table & gear and might end up my sawing & saw support center, leaving the center of the room open for better traffic flow & temporary work support devises. I would have less objection to a longer bench if I did not have to walk around it to get to everything on the walls. If the wall behind the bench houses mostly items used on the bench the flow might actually work.

[Jim Matthews]

To clarify, I have three of the Veritas surface clamps, and a handful of their blades, dogs, etc.
I have more invested in the hardware than the bench.

The surface clamp works from the right hand side. On the far left side, I installed a broad stop with 1/4-20 tpi brass inserts and simple knobs from the Rockler catalog.
It's another feature stolen (*ahem*) appropriated from the Chris Schwartz pantheon of letters: let us open our Missalette to Page 39, photos two and three.

Other than the undeniable cool factor of the gliding leg vise, I can't see greater utility from that method. I'm not rapidly swapping several boards, or repeatedly removing one to test the fit.
Once I have the board wedged into the crochet, and held up by the surface clamps - I'm whittling for awhile.

Do the surface clamps provide the same degree of pressure? Nope.
Do they hold the board steady enough to work? Certainly.

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What I will say about the Veritas clamps is that you only need to drill 3/4" holes to start using them.
I don't want to spend shop time, building tools. Call me lazy, but if I can't adapt something to use in less than an hour - it's not for me.

What I can't do at the left side of my bench is use the saw. That's why I built the Moxxon.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim thanks for the clarification. Is that a Veritas Mortised Bench Stop on the far right side of your bench? The "broad stop" on the left side of your bench looks like a stop you can raise to plane etc. against. I know Schwarz uses a single stop and pressure against it & the bench top to keep work steady for may jobs. I think there is a valid argument against the use of large, powerful vises, they take up a great deal of space, cost big bucks and apply much more pressure than is typically needed for most work.

I see how you use the Surface Clamps to hold work on the top or side of the bench. I imagine the broad stop holds boards for planing, chiseling, scraping. I wonder how you hold pieces for surface planing, where the plane needs to remove wood from the full length of the piece without hitting what holds it in place.

[Jim Matthews]

There's an inset surface vise, under the board in the middle picture.

If I want to plane a surface, the surface vise exerts sufficient pressure laterally to keep things up against the broad stop.
If the board is too short to reach the surface vise, I put another small board on the bench top to bridge the gap.

I have tried doing this with the bench blades or bench dogs and a batten, but the surface vise doesn't rotate.

To keep things in place (so that the board doesn't move away from my side) I use short dowels along the far side (away from me).
These are enough, and won't ding my plane blades if I run off the rails. Between the dowels and the broad stop, I find planing forces are enough to keep things stable.

This was not obvious to me, or I would have tried that first instead of laying in the surface vise.

It was a great deal of work to install, and I'm not convinced it was worthwhile.

jim
westport, ma