Cabinet door shaper cutters

[Glen A Peterson]

Hi All. I am tooling up for building cabinet doors for other shops. I have always built my own doors with router tables and one shaper but now I have added two more shapers for setup. I am wondering about tooling....do if to go freeborn brazed cutters or to go insert. I have the freud insert cutters for panel so this would be for stile and rail cutters only. Your thoughts???

Glen

[Peter Quinn]

I suppose it depends on the volume you will be doing, the variety of profiles you generally provide, and ultimately your budget. Freeborn braised sets work well, sharpening costs add up, and the turn around time can mean you either need two sets of more popular profiles or you need to time sharpenings really well. Insert sets cost more initially compared to a single braised set, but many insert sets offer multiple profiles in a single stack by changing knives, so you would have to compare them to 4-5 braised sets. If all your work is in one or two profiles, it may make sense to just get those profiles. If your range is really broad or your volume is high the insert heads are a no brainer. There is plenty of grey area in the middle. Its also not hard to sell used braised sets should you want to start there and switch to inserts should that make more sense in the future. So I guess my thoughts are there is no clear answer for every shop, it depends on the details of your situation.

[Jeff Duncan]

You say your building doors for other shops so insert cutters are really the only way to go. What other equipment do you have? To be competitive your going to need at least 2 heavy duty shapers....ie not the little Delta's and Powermatic's. Your going to need a widebelt and an edgesander and of course good dust collection. Depending on whether you want to offer finishing....which is pretty much standard for door suppliers, a full spray setup as well.

If your serious about getting into this line of business I suggest you do some serious homework first. Most door suppliers are pretty well streamlined and it's hard for a small outfit to compete on price. Picking out your tooling is important, but so are many other aspects you have to get in order first. I suggest looking at companies like Leitz, CG Schmidt, and Garniga to name a few good ones. They're just a few suppliers who can help you to choose which tooling you'll need.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Freeborn also sells all their popular cabinet sets as insert cutters as well, so consider them too. I understand Jeff's concerns regarding the business model, but I would suggest that in a given market a small manufacturer, or micro manufacture, can survive under the right circumstances and do so with a minimum of equipment. It's about relationships on the local level. If you can provide a service that adds value to your product for your customers you may be better able to compete on speed and service than a large manufacturer half way across the country. I know a guy that regularly does in the high $80K to $120K in sales from a small garage shop with one little powermatic shaper and a drum sander. Not a door specialist, but he makes a lot of doors and paneling. You don't need a $20K format shaper to make 3/4" doors, and you don't need a wide belt, though it sure wouldn't hurt. You will have to minimize stock prep and set up times with gauge blocks , digital fences, height gauges, etc. And it might not hurt to keep your thinking more diverse than just doors for a small shop starting out. Who knows, you might grow like J.R.'s business!

[Carroll Courtney]

Congratulations on your new adventure,its always nice to have a job that you really love.I recently visited a mill shop and he had HSS cutters in his tenon machines.I'm guessing cause their cheaper to have sharpen and easier for you to touch up w/a hone so I would say that the insert cutters is the way to go.But what I also notice while at the mill shop was that on most every machine was a power feeder,which I think that this is as important a decision to be made as which cutters is best.Keep as posted w/pics and discription cause alot of us would love to be in your shoes----Carroll

[David Kumm]

If you are planning on a small niche market, stress wood selection, grain and color matching, and be able to offer something to differentiate you from the mass production guys. 7/8 or 1" rails and stiles, anything that says you are different. If you try to compete on price alone you will get beat to death. Dave ( accountant in real life ).

[Glen A Peterson]

Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies so far. Don't worry about the business side and whether I can compare to the big guys. One of the guys I will be doing doors for gave me prices (actual price sheet) from the company he has been using. They up charge for every little thing which I am not going to. I am well equipped in both tools and experience. I have doing woodworking for over 20 years. I have three shapers right now (1-5hp for panels, 2- 3hp), 1hp four wheel power feeder on one shaper. I also got a great deal on some weaver tools last month. I bought the air tenon jig, shapermaster air crown panel and rail jig and one set of jigs for $430 US$. Great deal as they are worth over $3600 new. I have large table saw, 20" planer and 108" edge sander and alot of hand routers etc. I am looking at wide belt sanders now but no decisions yet. My biggest thing I need info on is style and rail tooling for the shapers. I bought Freuds RP-2000 panel cutter off ebay for $150 (steal). I am aware of hardships with building doors (material, labor, completion. One thing my customers tell me is they are tired of telling with the big companies. I know I can give them a better door for both colour and grain. I buy my lumber from a local mill and he hand picks my lumber as he knows me well. Oh I aslo have a cnc router in the shop so we offer mdf doors, fluted cabinet parts and arched valances in both mdf and wood.
Glen

[Peter Quinn]

Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies so far. Don't worry about the business side and whether I can compare to the big guys. One of the guys I will be doing doors for gave me prices (actual price sheet) from the company he has been using. They up charge for every little thing which I am not going to. My biggest thing I need info on is style and rail tooling for the shapers. I bought Freuds RP-2000 panel cutter off ebay for $150 (steal). I am aware of hardships with building doors (material, labor, completion. One thing my customers tell me is they are tired of telling with the big companies. I know I can give them a better door for both colour and grain. I buy my lumber from a local mill and he hand picks my lumber as he knows me well. Oh I aslo have a cnc router in the shop so we offer mdf doors, fluted cabinet parts and arched valances in both mdf and wood.
Glen

Thats my thinking exactly. If you want to buy a generic stock item from a big manufacturer is hard to beat them on economy of scale for price, so its hard for a little guy to compete. But as soon as you add some minor changes, the big companies economy goes out the window for the most part. Its often much cheaper for a small custom shop to handle custom work than it is for a large manufacturer. Their machines take too much set up time. I don't have to program my little delta shaper for a new molding profile!:D

Anyway, when you search for insert door tooling the questions I'd ask myself are:


1) How quick are knife changes. You don't get paid extra to fuss with cutter heads.

2) Does a single stack or "system" offer multiple profiles. Do these profiles provide the shapes your clients seem to want? Reason is if one system for $1500 gives you inserts and 5 profiles, that may be cheaper than 5 traditional heads at $400-$500 each. But only if you need them.

3) Do they give you the glass door option? Not all of them do.

4) Can you run different groove cutters for different panel tongue thicknesses? Some offer this, others don't. When I'm making solid hardwood raised panels, I tune them to match the grooves. Easy. But if the panels are veneered, plywood, etc, it may be more convenient to to change the groover to match the panel. I have used one set where you can actually shim a two piece groover, which is a great option. So if flat panels or veneer play into your work consider that.

5) Can the set handle different door thicknesses?

I don't think a single system handles every possible scenario, could be wrong there. I think Garniga comes the closest, but at the greatest initial cost. You can check out their catalogue on line or get a digital copy from Rangate. The Schmidt system looks interesting, but I don't see the glass door option there or adjustable groovers. Their catalogue is on line too. I have the RP 2000, works great, the RS 2000 looks interesting, has good flexibility, and is one of the cheapest insert systems. Food for thought anyway. Good luck.

[David Kumm]

Glen, sounds like you got it covered. There is something to be said for multiple cutters and swapping them out. I like the freeborn, their entry door cutters have a bigger profile and a 5/8 groove and tenon. I use those more than the regular cabinet door cutters as I like the thicker rails and stiles. Either types run off a 4" diameter. I usually substitute the center cutters to keep the 5/8 rather than 3/8 groove on the cabinet sets. Enough for a stub tenon door and with a 7/16 tongue and bits of 1/4 OD tubing in the groove the panel stays put and has room. I have about 6 separate sets and most are Freeborn or Schmidt but all run on 4" diameters for simplicity of set up. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I have two RP 2000 sets, and two shapers with a head in each one. Works well for me but I am by no means a production shop. A new set of inserts is inexpensive, and I add in half a set to every job. Again, I do not compete with the big boys and don't care to, so I can not comment on overall effectiveness and cost.

I have to send all my cutters out as there is no sharpening service even remotely close, and that was the reason for my decision. Its just simpler to order a new set for me.

Larry

[Moses Yoder]

The insert tooling is more expensive to purchase but not quite as expensive to keep sharp. In order to figure out whether it is cost effective would be pretty simple. If you make 100 doors per week, you would probably figure on sharpening once per week. We would sharpen our insert tooling twice before discarding it, because sharpening changes the profile. So for insert tooling you would figure out how many heads you want (one head can do a variety of profiles) and how many knives you need, the cost to sharpen them, and amortize that over 7 years. Then do the same with the brazed carbid heads; figure the cost of the head, sharpening, figure they have to be replaced every 75-100 sharpenings, and calculate the cost over 7 years. If you are borrowing money to buy them, you would have to calculate interest as well.

We had to work on it a while to get insert tooling that worked good, tight joints, etc., but eventually almost all our tooling was insert. Once the heads are paid for, the maintenance cost is lower.

[Glen A Peterson]

Has anyone used or have feedback with Amana Insert Cutters? I was looking at the 61750 or 61758 tool.
Glen