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View Full Version : New Powermatic or Grizzly???



Kevin Presutti
11-25-2011, 10:42 PM
This was a similar title to a recent post in another forum which caused me to stop and think that in the short time I have been a member here I have read several posts in reference to this type dilema. After some thought regarding this issue I felt compelled to post my thoughts on this matter.

I am wondering why when I read posts regarding the purchase of new tools that so many are interested in buying chineese/taiwanese manufactured tools new when the cost of some of the old used American made PM, Delta, etc. are reasonably priced (darn near free in some cases) and IMHO are made of higher quality material and machined with greater precision. I don't want to make this a political statement but I have seen an older MADE IN THE USA 7 1/2 HP, PM 20" planer that claimed to run that looked connected and used daily, pictures showed signs of use but what do you expect from a 20+ year old planer, we don't own them to look at, for $475.00 in Tennessee. May be a bit of a haul for some, but the money you save affords the Byrd Head, some spray paint, a new decal or two, a little elbow grease, some time and you have a rock solid planer for years to come. Plus the satisfaction that you breathed new life into an aging piece of machinery that will preform flawlessly for you. You Harley guys would walk before you bought a Japaneese bike wouldn't you? I have driven a Ford PU for over 30 years and would drive nothing else. And when you buy and rehab one of these pieces of Americana all the money stays here in the USA. Not bashing anyones tool preference or a manufacturer or their budget here but when you are talking $3000.00 - $4000.00 you can find some fine machines here without going overseas and leaving the $$$ over there. I personally have a hard time owning a big ticket item that isn't American Made, my dad and 3 of his 5 brothers were machinists, 1 was an engineer, 3 of them worked in the same plant together, my grandfather worked in the foundry, I worked in the same plant as well, what is now the Dresser Rand Corporation. So as you see I come from a lintage of factory workers that manufactured machinery here in the United States, all were in WWII and the best products were manufactured here in the USA especially machinery and that is what powered us to the top. We were the industry standard by which all others were measured. I am a proud American and wish to keep my money here to the best of my ability but it's getting harder everyday. I hope you that read this post will post your feelings regarding this issue. Economically we as a country are hurting and by helping someone out by purchasing something they are selling helps them and you may get a great deal in return. Will it be new? Probably not but might just require a few dollars and some TLC and very likely outlast the the imports from the left coast. Buy American the job you save may be your own!

Greg Peterson
11-26-2011, 11:43 AM
Kevin -

Older tools do not always mean better quality. Examples to the contrary certainly exist.

I have obtained my share of 'older' tools. Often times they require TLC (rust removal, bearings, warped CI, motors...). Some folks have the time and extra money to solve the issues associated with an old machine. You never completely know what you are getting yourself into when you buy an old piece of iron.

A new machine will have contemporary features, a warranty and minimal setup time.

Place of manufacturer is growing less relevant today. What matters is how tightly the company whose name goes on the tool maintains quality control on the factory floor.

The erosion of the manufacturing sector marches on to its eventual conclusion. Economic sectors evolve/devolve over generations. The financial sector now accounts for 40% of our economy while employing 5% of our work force. The business of business is business. To these folks, the notion that a job supports a family and community is almost as quaint as a Norman Rockwell painting. It's all about the next quarterly report and their year end bonus. Cut costs at every corner.

I call it economic cannibalism.

Tim Morton
11-26-2011, 7:31 PM
When i recently purchased a brand new 8" grizzly jointer, the thing that swung the deal away from buying a used american made product ( i tried for months)..was that in the end the cost became a wash, but the convenience of having the trucking company deliver it into my show was the deciding factor. I simply didn't have the time or the vehicle to travel 100 miles + to pick up a jointer site unseen.

Tom Fischer
11-27-2011, 7:39 AM
Yes, most new tools have free delivery, and some warranty. I recently bought a new Powermatic 2000 TS, a lot of the deal-making was the riving knife, plus the great dust collection. Sometime new is better.
I haven't bought a used car in nearly 30 years either.

Rod Sheridan
11-27-2011, 9:02 AM
While I certainly support the idea of purchasing machinery made locally (My shop was filled with General equipment, and one foreign machine, an Oneida cyclone), there isn't anything I can think of from North America that I would purchase.

I sold the four General machines (cabinet saw, shaper, jointer and planer) and purchased a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper and a Hammer A3-31 Jointer/Planer. The NA made machines were nice, just 50 years out of date. The Euro machines have more capacity, more capabilities and an astounding array of features and options that make the other stuff pale in comparison, plus up to date guards and safety systems.

If my choices wer NA or Asian lower end machines, I would certainly go with NA, however if you add Euro machines into the mix that changes things.

Regards, Rod.

Paul McGaha
11-27-2011, 9:05 AM
I dont know that a lot of people have the time, ability, or shop space to restore stationary tools. In a lot of cases I'm sure this would lead to having a far better tool and possibly for less money out. Certainly admire those that do tool restorations.

In my case I have at least a 50 hour per week job (that can go a lot higher), a house and vehicles to take care of. Shop time is very limited. If I'm lucky 1 day of the weekend in the shop per week. I dont have the shop space for tool restorations. I dont know that I have the mechanical ability to do tool restorations.

It's also true that sometimes the newer tools are better. Table saws with riving knives, better blade guards, better dust collection. Planers and Jointers with Byrd Heads.

I do prefer to buy US made tools. Half of the stationary tools in my shop are US made. There are not too many US manufacturers left though. Oneida Air and Woodmaster come to mind. When they chose to start selling imported tools I would have preferred that Powermatic continue their US made lineup like General/General International tools does in Canada but I guess Powermatic chose not to. As for Delta while some of their tools were US made, I think their jointers and planers (shop staples) were imported for some time.

PHM

Cary Falk
11-27-2011, 11:05 PM
There was a discussion over at OWWM abou 6 months ago. Their argument was that people that don't choose OWWM are stupid, cubical dwelling, mechanically declinded people that can't turn a wrench. I work in the Semiconductor industry. I have restored a Delta Unisaw, Delta Scroll Saw, DeWalt GWI and MBF. OWWM is not always the answer.

I would wager that anybody that makes the statement that all Chiwan equipt. has not purchased any in the last couple of years. There is some very nice, capable equipment that will give OWWM a run for it's money. I read about how rough castings are on asian tools. I see threads talking about what to do about smoothing rough castings. I read about poor asian quality but yet people are searching for broken parts left and right on tools that are suppose to be industrial quality.

Reasons for not buying OWWM?
1)Location, Location, Location.. Not everybody lives in a target rich enviornment. The $25 plug'n'play is not the norm. In my area $1500 is closer to truth. Gas being what it is, it is expensive to travel 3 states away to pick up something.
2)Time...Not everybody has time to take long trips to find tools and search CL, auctions , etc every 10 minutes to find a deal.
3)CL..I can only deal with people from CL for so long. I currently at my wits end from both the selling and buying end of it. Unfortunately I have 2 things I need to sell.
4)What is your real hobby? My hobby is woodworking and have a woodworking project list a mile long. Any tool rehab project just puts me behind. Sometimes a tool project is a nice change of pace, but it is now where I want to spend all of my time.
5)Weight.. I work out of a 3 car garage where I have to move all of my tools to one bay at the end of the day. A 5,000 pound 12" planer isn't practical.
6)Features..A table saw is a good example of this. New saws have riving knives and better dust collection. Will a splitter do the same thing? For the most part, but a riving knife is soo much nicer to use. Lathes are have nicer features now days also.
7)Longevity - maybe OWWM will last longer. It is already 1 life span down. So a tool lasts 3 lifetimes instead of 4. Who cares past your lifetime? So you pass it down to your kids. With all of the innovations most of the current tools will be obsolete in a couple of decades and your kids probably won't want to use it. Everything is probably going to go to CNC.

Larry Edgerton
11-28-2011, 6:49 AM
The only people that have the power to change the current manufacturing trends are the consumers themselves. Corporate America is only interested in the bottom line, and only by losing sales will any of this change. The choice is yours.

Greg Peterson
11-28-2011, 10:21 AM
1)Location, Location, Location.. Not everybody lives in a target rich enviornment. The $25 plug'n'play is not the norm. In my area $1500 is closer to truth. Gas being what it is, it is expensive to travel 3 states away to pick up something.

Once you get west of the Mississippi the population density decreases. The supply of old iron out here is pretty limited. When a uni shows up on CL more often than not it's a 3 phase unit that has seen better days. And even at that they don't last long on CL.

Been there, done that. I much rather use my wood working tools than mechanic tools. But that's is just me.

Brian Elfert
11-28-2011, 12:30 PM
I've often seen good used woodworking equipment go for more than new at auctions and such. Why would I pay more for a used product than for new? The stuff that is affordable is most often three phase. Three phase stuff seems to be dirt cheap at times with companies going under and few companies needing more equipment. I would bet that Planer in Tennessee is probably three phase.

Another thing with new tools is some of them have new technology. I probably would buy a new table saw because of the riving knives and such they have now. Saw Stop is also a great technology even though a lot don't like it.

Joe Angrisani
11-28-2011, 12:31 PM
....The financial sector now accounts for 40% of our economy while employing 5% of our work force.

Please quote the source for this data.



....The business of business is business. To these folks, the notion that a job supports a family and community is almost as quaint as a Norman Rockwell painting. It's all about the next quarterly report and their year end bonus. Cut costs at every corner....

Here we go again. Bad Evil Business. Boo hiss. Tar and feather the guy in the corner office.

How surprising is it that "The business of business is business"? By definition, it SHOULD be. These 'evil corporations' have taken a look at what consumers actually want and will pay for, and have adjusted their businesses to match that. And in the process, they make money for their shareholders. If you want to blame someone, blame the shortsighted consumer. In my opinion they've done more to ruin our economy over the past 30 years than a building full of CEOs.

Myk Rian
11-28-2011, 12:41 PM
DeWalt RAS replaced a Taiwanese miter saw.
Delta DP220 replaced a Delta Taiwanese DP350 VS.
Delta 1966 M/W band saw replaced a 2001 Delta wood only band saw USA model, w/Chinese motor.
JD Wallace 8" jointer replaced a Grizzly Taiwanese 8" jointer.
Delta 16" scroll saw replaced a Delta Taiwanese scroll saw.

Every one of my old arn machines are better quality than the ones they replaced.
If you have the time, and ability to restore, there is much satisfaction in going that route. The big plus is knowing your tools inside and out, and how to keep them in top operating condition.
All my machines cost less than buying new ones, counting repair parts.
I've driven up to 250 miles to get them.

P.S. Please use paragraphs. Posts without them are difficult, at best, to read.

Brian Elfert
11-28-2011, 12:51 PM
Here we go again. Bad Evil Business. Boo hiss. Tar and feather the guy in the corner office.

How surprising is it that "The business of business is business"? By definition, it SHOULD be. These 'evil corporations' have taken a look at what consumers actually want and will pay for, and have adjusted their businesses to match that. And in the process, they make money for their shareholders. If you want to blame someone, blame the shortsighted consumer. In my opinion they've done more to ruin our economy over the past 30 years than a building full of CEOs.

In most cases the consumer is not even offered a choice of an American made product. Ever tried to find a computer or other electronics made in the USA? There are a few small companies that assemble desktop computers in the USA, but the only part that might be USA made is the case. I bought one of the last Pioneer TVs ever made as they quit making them. My understanding is they are at least assembled in the USA. It also happened to be one of the best TVs of the type ever made.

I am surprised from time to time to see 99 cent items of plastic still made in the USA. Me personally, I would gladly pay the extra 5 or 10 cents on a item like that to get one made in the USA if it was an option. My Scout troop wanted to buy some specific can openers because they are USA made. It turned that the company owner died and new owners closed the American plant and shifted all production to China. We still bought the can openers as they are still some of the best made.

The problem with woodworking machinery is the cost of the raw materials has gone sky high. Ten years ago I could buy woodworking machinery made in the USA for less money than they want for the offshore stuff today.

Joe Angrisani
11-28-2011, 1:02 PM
In most cases the consumer is not even offered a choice of an American made product. Ever tried to find a computer or other electronics made in the USA? There are a few small companies that assemble desktop computers in the USA, but the only part that might be USA made is the case. I bought one of the last Pioneer TVs ever made as they quit making them. My understanding is they are at least assembled in the USA. It also happened to be one of the best TVs of the type ever made.

I am surprised from time to time to see 99 cent items of plastic still made in the USA. Me personally, I would gladly pay the extra 5 or 10 cents on a item like that to get one made in the USA if it was an option. My Scout troop wanted to buy some specific can openers because they are USA made. It turned [out] that the company owner died and new owners closed the American plant and shifted all production to China. We still bought the can openers as they are still some of the best made.....

Both are examples of the consumer's effect. Consumers let businesses know what they wanted, and businesses respond. Consumers wanted/want cheap computers, so manufacturing has long since moved overseas so that price point could be met. Consumers wanted/want cheap can openers, so manufacturing has moved overseas for the same reason.

glenn bradley
11-28-2011, 1:11 PM
I remember back in the early 60's how "Made in Japan" meant "junk"; guess they showed us :eek:. I think the derisive views of Asian manufactured goods comes from the same places as those previous prejudices; early poor quality control, blind prejudice, home-town pride, brand favoritism or sense of brand betrayal and so forth. While there is still quite a disparity in quality of similar appearing machines there are also folks who spend a premium for a certain color of paint. As is the norm in today's consumer community, educated buyers will make better decisions. Do your research from forums like this, magazine reviews, online reviews and any hands on you might be able to get. Take all of that, filter out the slanted information and try to make your best decision. I think careful and open-minded reviews of all the available information will generally end up in a good decision.

As to old iron superiority, I do believe this holds true to a point. Material and engineering advancements make some really older machines romantic but, hardly superior. Others are incredibly impressive in their quality and longevity. There is plenty of old low-end junk feeding the soil under planned communities of homes all over the country. I do often find it interesting that a quality product built in a "less sophisticated" era is still going strong long after several replacements of the latest and greatest have been bought and swapped out. Today as in the past, careful selection of quality products will yield a long and happy relationship with your tools. "Old" or "new" is not automatically better. Careful selection by an educated purchaser will beat out blind faith every time.

David Weaver
11-28-2011, 1:28 PM
Brian - I think to explain any one item as being the cause of not seeing lots of US made stuff would be an oversimplification. Some points that work in combination, I think, are:

* the rest of the world is becoming more economically viable, because the governments realize the value of creating a low-political/government risk scenario where you don't have to worry about a government working against you the day after you build a manufacturing facility

* you may wish to buy domestic goods, but probably 90+% of people may think that also, but when the rubber hits the road, they will buy best price. It's not just the extra 5 to 10 cents on a plastic good that you count, but the incentives that a government provides to the manufacturer, the hoops to jump through and overhead fixed costs that the US creates. Then there is the tie-up of capital when a good costs more, and convincing a retailer that they should also tie up more capital in selling a good when most customers still buy on price

* the difference in the cost of goods is probably greater than you think in domestic vs. foreign manufacture, especially on items that ship cheaply. I recall a retailer having a sale several years ago for items, at a % over their cost. Some of the foreign origin items were 25 or 30% of their retail price. The US made goods weren't much cheaper than regular price. If a retailer has a domestic item for $12 and a foreign item for $9, and it costs $8 to get the domestic item and $2 or $1 to get the foreign item, if they lose a few customers who are domestic loyal, they are still way ahead and have much less capital tied up. That affords the ability to run goofy coupon sales and 2 for 1 and still make money. I think the whole new "kohl's efffect" (getting coupons all the time and having no clue what the actual everyday price for an item should be to be a fair deal) is due to a combination of the ability to get individualized customer data organized, and more importantly, the ability to have the manufacture of an item be a small % of the sale price, vs. what it would otherwise be.

And FTR, I err on the side of buying US made, but I see the above things, especially the cost of an item being such a small % to retailers (look at all of the plastic and pot metal foreign stuff at rockler, mcfeely's, etc) making it so that we probably will not again see retailers willing to carry a lot of domestic stuff if there is a cheaper foreign alternative. The domestic stuff will probably have to stay at low-stock low-overhead internet specialty places.

Greg Peterson
11-28-2011, 11:03 PM
Sure Joe.

Perhaps I should refine my previous remarks since you seem to take offense at what I said. Regardless, what I said was accurate. Must have hit a nerve.

The financial sector currently accounts for roughly 40% of corporate profits while maintaining roughly 5% of the available work force. (See link).

http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/01/the-nature-of-modern-finance/

(http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/01/the-nature-of-modern-finance/)The financial sector accounts for 7%-8% of GDP whereas at no other time in the past has it accounted for more than 2% of GDP.

The financial sector has a vested interest in destroying domestic jobs by outsourcing to them to lower cost work pools.

I am an ardent proponent of business. But any business or industry that is given a higher status than a citizen is too big.

As per your comments you obviously feel consumers are to blame for current matters. Business is obligated to produce a good or service for the lowest cost but consumers are not obligated to purchase the least expensive good or service. Your bias is obvious.

I don't know about you, but I can't think of the last time a CEO didn't get a nice paycheck regardless of how their companies stock did. Failing upwards is the new norm.

Larry Edgerton
11-29-2011, 7:00 AM
Greg

When you throw a blanket over all CEOs, that is a mistake. Aprox. 90% of business in the US is small, privately owned business, with their own CEOs. These businesses are not the ones we hear about, and they are not run the same way as a company that has a place on the stock exchange.

Wall Street, and all that goes with it, this drive to show a profit every quarter, no matter the long term cost, that is the root of the problem. The Wall Street CEOs are just a symptom of that problem, doing a job they were hired to do, show a profit with all long range consequences to be ignored. Other than that detail I agree with your statement.

I agree with Joeas well, that it is the consumer and their personal greed, no matter the consequences, I must have more attitude, that has brought us to this point. The CEOs on the exchange merely reflect this same attitude.

It is well known that we are being screwed by certian foreign governments but park outside a Wallmart and watch throngs of people rushing to send their dollars overseas.

I think it is hopeless myself, the general public is too stupid to change and our politicians are elected by these same people. Collapse is inevitable.

Larry

Rod Sheridan
11-29-2011, 9:11 AM
One issue with the "old arn" versus "new arn" that is seldom discussed is that often apples are compared to lemons.

People compare a Wadkin sliding table saw to their cheap present day table saw, and conclude that the "old arn" equipment was so much better.

Of course it was better, that comparison was between a piece of industrial equipment that no hobby worker ever owned new, and a piece of hobby equipment that many owned new.

Try comparing the Wadkin to a present Martin or Format saw and you would have an apples to apples comparison, and guess what, the Martin or Format would be far superior.

Try comparing an "old arn" Beaver saw to a present made in Taiwan cabinet saw and once again I think the "old arn" saw would be the loser. It's not fair however because it's not an apples to apple comparison.

Think back to the 1960's and the machinery that was owned by hobby wood workers, most of it would be classed as junk compared to what most hobby users now own.

Now before everyone takes offense, yes a Wadkin can be a great restoration project, at reasonable cost if the person is willing to undertake that.

I'm not, which is funny because my other hobby is vintage motorcycles, where I have to rebuild and restore old arn, and sometimes fabricate replacement parts. I love that about old motorcycles, however when it comes to wood working machines, I want to press the on button and start using it.

As I indicated in a previous post, I have no interest in owning one of the lower end Asian machines. That's not to say that a good quality machine made in Japan wouldn't be welcome in my shop. A North American machine would also be welcome, unfortunately I can't think of any that I would purchase at present.

Regards, Rod.

Joe Angrisani
11-29-2011, 9:28 AM
Greg.... I didn't "take offense". Just presenting the other side of a discussion, and I am not a fan of blanket statements. I'm not denying there are bad CEOs. But to pool them together in some stink tank undermines your argument. People love to bash CEOs, but it is people (as a whole) that have led to cheaper foreign-produced goods. We (as a whole) vote with our wallets, and we've been voting for decades and letting the supply chain know that cheap trumps all.

You know what's silly? The money pro athletes make and the money actors/actresses make. Another example of how we (as a whole) have a skewed sense of it all. We (as a whole) feel it's OK for some ballplayer to make $10,000,000 a year, win or lose, yet a CEO who makes hundreds of millions for shareholders and creates tens of thousands of jobs is lambasted for earning the same $10,000,000.

I'm with Larry. The general public is too stupid to change. Instead of correcting our (again, our/we as a whole) poor practices, the general public passes the blame to someone else. Take the overborrowing that led to this whole 2008-present crisis, for example. The fool that took on $3000 in debt knowing he only had $2500 to spend is brushed over, while the corporations are put at fault. "I didn't do it." "The banks were evil/greedy." "CEOs suck." Blaming someone else is the new American way!

Larry Edgerton
11-29-2011, 7:03 PM
Joe, Google WeatherTech for an example of a company that is concerned with our future, not just a bottom line. There are many others like it, but this is a shining example.

Larry

Brian Elfert
11-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Joe, Google WeatherTech for an example of a company that is concerned with our future, not just a bottom line. There are many others like it, but this is a shining example.


Interesting. I have Weathertech floor mats because they make a nice product. Even more glad I bought them after reading about their American factory and commitment to buying American.

Jim Rimmer
11-30-2011, 1:03 PM
Back to the original question: I don't buy used because, like others have said, I don't have the time, room, skills or inclination to rebuild an old tool. Sure, it might be cheaper and better but I just don't have the ability to do it. And I am a hobbyist; I don't need 3 phase, 5hp anything in my shop.

As to the domestic vs foreign discussion: a few years ago we were looking for a new car for LOML. Do we buy a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota made in Kentucky? The lines are really blurred now.