Raised Panel Doors: Shaper vs. Router

[Kenneth Crisler]

Doing a small run of raised panel doors in the shop, currently outsourcing these to a local manufacturer. There's a pretty good chance I'll need these regularly in the coming year. If I choose to make these in-house, will a router table with a Porter Cable 7518 router suffice, or should I start looking at getting a shaper? Thanks!

[Larry Edgerton]

When I first went on my own I did one job with a 7518 and Bosch Supersharp bits, and then went out and bought a shaper. Gave the bits away.

It can be done, but it is just not the same.

Larry

[Gene Howe]

I've done several raised panel kitchens using the 7518. Not a problem. Never used a shaper. Might be faster.

[Derek Gilmer]

A shaper especially one with a power feeder will give you faster and probably better results. That said I have made them on a 3hp router table as well. Just takes more passes to keep tear out and chatter down. If you go with a router take a look at freuds quad cutter bits. They do an excellent job.

[Kenneth Crisler]

When I first went on my own I did one job with a 7518 and Bosch Supersharp bits, and then went out and bought a shaper. Gave the bits away.

It can be done, but it is just not the same.

Larry

That's my gut feeling. Another consideration: For now they're milled from Cypress, but if say Oak comes into the picture, I think it'll be a completely different experience.

[Moses Yoder]

If you look at a 1-1/2 HP motor on a router then look at the 1-1/2 HP motor on my Powermatic shaper, the shaper motor is about 4 times as big. What that means is it has more torque. If you are going to be building a number of 5 piece doors with cope and stick joints, the shaper is really the only way to go. On the other hand, a good cabinet door is not made with cope & stick joints, it is built with mortice & tenon joints. A 5 piece door with M&T joints on the frame will last practically forever, and if these are for sale your clients will apreciate it. We buy our doors from Fryburg Door in Ohio. http://www.fryburgdoor.com/test.html They make a great quality door, mortice & tenon frame, for a reasonable price. You have to set up an account with them in order to do business with them.

[Jeff Duncan]

You can do a lot with a good router in a table, but if you do enough you get to the point where it's time to upgrade. The shaper has the advantage in almost every way, it's faster, stronger, more accurate, can run all day long...(depending on the quality of shaper), and produces better cut quality. The only real downside is cost....shapers cost more, and so do their cutters. So it comes down to how many doors are you going to make? Is this your business or a hobby? How much do you want to invest? Personally I find the shaper indispensable to my business and would have 10 of them if i could fit them. Their just so versatile I use them all the time.

good luck,
JeffD

[John TenEyck]

I have a shaper that I almost never use EXCEPT for raised panels, and cope and stick doors. Fast, smooth, precise.

[Don Wacker]

I have a shaper that I almost never use EXCEPT for raised panels, and cope and stick doors. Fast, smooth, precise.

Im just the opposite. I have a router table and only use it when I have to run out and buy a router bit for a profile I dont have for the shaper. If its something I will need again I'll order the cutter and the router bit will collect dust. I do quite a few doors probably 50 - 100 a week and couldnt get by without the shaper.

Don

[Kenneth Crisler]

You can do a lot with a good router in a table, but if you do enough you get to the point where it's time to upgrade. The shaper has the advantage in almost every way, it's faster, stronger, more accurate, can run all day long...(depending on the quality of shaper), and produces better cut quality. The only real downside is cost....shapers cost more, and so do their cutters. So it comes down to how many doors are you going to make? Is this your business or a hobby? How much do you want to invest? Personally I find the shaper indispensable to my business and would have 10 of them if i could fit them. Their just so versatile I use them all the time.

good luck,
JeffD

Strictly for business, so picturing dust accumulating upon a $3000 shaper drives me crazy. For now I think outsourcing is the best option. Besides labor, it's one less piece of equipment to call my insurer about. ;)

[Kenneth Crisler]

Thanks again to everyone for your insight. Thinking outsourcing the doors is best for now. They arrive fully sanded and ready for finish so I can't really ask for more. Sure, they're not free, but that cost is offset by my own labor expenses. If things pick up, I'll definitely go for a shaper.

[Don Wacker]

Thanks again to everyone for your insight. Thinking outsourcing the doors is best for now. They arrive fully sanded and ready for finish so I can't really ask for more. Sure, they're not free, but that cost is offset by my own labor expenses. If things pick up, I'll definitely go for a shaper.

Im not sure what it is your business does but I use my shaper to make up for the slow times. Many shops and contractors sub out doors. Ive managed to get a decent clientele of generals that do reface jobs and rental properties along with other one man shops that dont think that doors are worth doing. I can stay busy all day long as long as I have some doors to do during the slow times or while watching finish dry.

Don

[Paul Grothouse]

One thing that noboby here has mentioned is that shapers do not have the tearout problems that routers do because the larger cutters reduce the shear angle. This reduces the need for climb cutting, and multi-pass requirements.

My two cents is that there is no comparision for volume work between a router and shaper for profiling operations. Routers are a just not heavy or powerfull enough. Most brands of routers last about 4-8 months in my shop before they need a bearing job (festool is on 1-1/2 years at this point), Our shaper is ~8 years old and still runs true, and it is used several hours a week. We are able to end tenon exterior 2-1/4" thick door stiles with 4" tenons and the cope cuts (both sides) in one pass with our shaper.

The other thing I will say is a shaper can be used for a lot more than making doors. I use mine as much or more as handheld router, the trick is getting a good one that is easy to change over from operation to operation, repeatability is key. There are some really great books out there on using a shaper if you want to explore it more.

Door outsourcing is very popular even in very large cabinet manufacturers. You can always do it that way while you grow the buisness, and bring it in-house when the return is positive.

[Randy Dutkiewicz]

I have a shaper that I almost never use EXCEPT for raised panels, and cope and stick doors. Fast, smooth, precise.
+1. That's really the only time I use mine either.

[Jeff Monson]

RP doors can be made quite nicely with a router table. My 1st kitchen was done with a M12 Hitachi router in a table. I moved up to a shaper now and its quite a bit nicer, the cut quality is better with far less tearout. Adding a feeder makes it even better. I'd recemmond to budget for a shaper, a router for doors in a commercial environment would not cut the mustard in my book.

[raymond Abel]

I use a triton 3 hp for many pannel using
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/6-Pc-Cabinet-Making-Set/productinfo/06001/
I am very happy & works #1

Ray

[Jeff Duncan]

Strictly for business, so picturing dust accumulating upon a $3000 shaper drives me crazy. For now I think outsourcing is the best option. Besides labor, it's one less piece of equipment to call my insurer about. ;)

Outsourcing certainly seems like the way to go for many shops these days. I know I can't build a door for as little as I can buy it for. On the other hand I can make custom doors pretty easily with no wait. If I mess something up, something is damaged, or I need something no one offers, I can always just make it up! Not to mention being able to make up custom moldings, and all the other things shapers are good for. I build a lot of different products though, so I have to stay flexible. I just finished a job consisting of 15 - 2-1/4" thick, 3 panel interior doors. I then had to turn around and make cabinet doors with a similar scaled down bolection molding. No problem, sent a drawing to my knife guy, he made the knives, and I quickly shaped the moldings for the cabinet doors;)

Anyway different strokes for different folks. Use what works best for you, and if you find the need you can always pick up a shaper down the road. I do think though that once you get one, you'll wonder how you ever managed without:rolleyes:

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks again to everyone for your insight. Thinking outsourcing the doors is best for now. They arrive fully sanded and ready for finish so I can't really ask for more. Sure, they're not free, but that cost is offset by my own labor expenses. If things pick up, I'll definitely go for a shaper.I think ats a smart move Kenneth. Shaper kicks routers butt.....news at 11:00. A shaper is just part of a door program, though and for speed they work better in three's, or in the large programable type. To make doors quickly you need to mill stock, dimension, shape, sand, glue, sand, hand sand, sand.....well it's way more than just shaping. You can pull off a few doors or a home kitchen on a good router table, but for business it's crazy talk IMO. There are lots of good door specialists regional and national. Till your volume dictates you become a specialist, it might make more sense to skip it and use e phone to make doors.

[Kenneth Crisler]

Im not sure what it is your business does but I use my shaper to make up for the slow times. Many shops and contractors sub out doors. Ive managed to get a decent clientele of generals that do reface jobs and rental properties along with other one man shops that dont think that doors are worth doing. I can stay busy all day long as long as I have some doors to do during the slow times or while watching finish dry. Don Never considered that opportunity. Brand-wise, I assume I can't go wrong with Powermatic? I'll contact my dealer after Thanksgiving to see if they might have anything coming off lease that I could try for a bit.

[David Keast]

One thing that noboby here has mentioned is that shapers do not have the tearout problems that routers do because the larger cutters reduce the shear angle. This reduces the need for climb cutting, and multi-pass requirements.

My two cents is that there is no comparision for volume work between a router and shaper for profiling operations. Routers are a just not heavy or powerfull enough. Most brands of routers last about 4-8 months in my shop before they need a bearing job (festool is on 1-1/2 years at this point), Our shaper is ~8 years old and still runs true, and it is used several hours a week. We are able to end tenon exterior 2-1/4" thick door stiles with 4" tenons and the cope cuts (both sides) in one pass with our shaper.

The other thing I will say is a shaper can be used for a lot more than making doors. I use mine as much or more as handheld router, the trick is getting a good one that is easy to change over from operation to operation, repeatability is key. There are some really great books out there on using a shaper if you want to explore it more.

Door outsourcing is very popular even in very large cabinet manufacturers. You can always do it that way while you grow the buisness, and bring it in-house when the return is positive.

Beat me to the punch... I was about to post a similar comment - large diameter cutters really do transform the result.

[Moses Yoder]

Strictly for business, so picturing dust accumulating upon a $3000 shaper drives me crazy. For now I think outsourcing is the best option. Besides labor, it's one less piece of equipment to call my insurer about. ;)

When building built-in cabinets, you can really increase the volume of a small shop by outsourcing the doors & drawer boxes. Most larger shops do this as well. The thing that really sets your shop apart from the rest is the finishing anyway, so it is better to spend time finishing and let someone else do the grunt work.

[David Kumm]

The downside to outsourcing is you lose control of color and grain matching. Seems like panel matching is done by a person with a white cane. Truthfully most probably don't notice until you point it out. Dave

[Moses Yoder]

If it's going to be painted, most people wouldn't waste their time matching the grain. Some, of course, would. When we visited the Fryburg plant in Ohio, they had a lazer set up with an electronic control , on a workbench. There was a fence on the table which the first stave was pushed against and the width of the panel was puched in digitally and the laser moved to show how wide the finished panel would be. Staves were then selected from the batch to form the most pleasing grain and color orientataion possible with the stock of wood at hand. Most people just look for the cheapest door they can find, which is not really the best option.

You can get more creative with the wood when you build your own doors, but this is usually a waste of time because the average customer really doesn't care and doesn't know the difference. For instance, for those people who build their own doors usually do so with a cheap cope and stick joint, and the customer never knows it's not a mortice & tenon joint. Of course if you are a famous woodworker charging upwards of a million dollars for one piece, you better make your own door and it better be good.

[scott vroom]

Cope and stick is every bit as reliable as mortise and tenon for kitchen cabinet doors. I have NEVER seen a quality cope and stick joint fail in a kitchen cabinet door. Kitchen cabinets are not fine furniture; they are meant to be torn out a replaced every 10-20 years.

[Moses Yoder]

Cope and stick is every bit as reliable as mortise and tenon for kitchen cabinet doors. I have NEVER seen a quality cope and stick joint fail in a kitchen cabinet door. Kitchen cabinets are not fine furniture; they are meant to be torn out a replaced every 10-20 years.

I have never seen a good quality cope & stick joint fail either. Obviously, of all the ones I have seen that failed, they were all poor quality joints.

Yes, sad to say, in this world where everybody is jumping up on a soap box and preaching GREEN, most maufacturers are still building cabinets that need to be replaced in 10 years.

[Larry Edgerton]

Kitchen cabinets are not fine furniture; they are meant to be torn out a replaced every 10-20 years.

If I had to go about my job with that as my mantra, I would sell my tools and be a greeter at WallMart. Sucks for you if that is how you feel. I do not know of a house I built, or a cabinet job I have done that has been replaced or remodeled. I try to do work that will be restored, not replaced.

Most of my doors are mortice and tenon, but some are cope and stick, depends on the depth of the pockets.

One thing I do sub out is drawer boxes. There is nothing more boring for me than making and finishing drawer boxes. I buy them from Keystone Specialties, always perfect, on time, and an awesome finish. And I don't have to do it.

[Kenneth Crisler]

If I had to go about my job with that as my mantra, I would sell my tools and be a greeter at WallMart. Sucks for you if that is how you feel. I do not know of a house I built, or a cabinet job I have done that has been replaced or remodeled. I try to do work that will be restored, not replaced.


Couldn't have said it better. (Though I love building drawers. ;) )

FWIW, these aren't kitchen cabinets. Regardless, my professional and moral integrity prohibits me from approaching any project with a lackadaisical attitude. It may be the 100th cabinet of the year for me, but it's the only one my customer is going to see day in and day out.
I'll never forget being out an install job in my teens and hearing the trim carpenter remark, "Caulk and paint makes a trim man what he ain't!" My boss didn't laugh or smile, he just shook his head. Reaching a level at which a layperson couldn't tell the difference between how it should be done and how it actually was, is not my finish line. I'll know, and I refuse to have my abilities associated with sub-par work.
This wasn't directed at anyone, but rather at an attitude I see too often. That attitude, that mindset, is the very line that separates "professionals" from craftsmen and women.

[Randy Dutkiewicz]

I think ats a smart move Kenneth. Shaper kicks routers butt.....news at 11:00. A shaper is just part of a door program, though and for speed they work better in three's, or in the large programable type. To make doors quickly you need to mill stock, dimension, shape, sand, glue, sand, hand sand, sand.....well it's way more than just shaping. You can pull off a few doors or a home kitchen on a good router table, but for business it's crazy talk IMO. There are lots of good door specialists regional and national. Till your volume dictates you become a specialist, it might make more sense to skip it and use e phone to make doors.

Agree with this.

[michael case]

Jeff,
Got to love that M12. I should have a shaper by now and I know it. But that Hitachi just won't quit. Its in its fourth router table and 18th year. It only cost $180.00 at Woodworker's Warehouse. I was so impressed I bought a back up for another $180.00. The first is still running and the back up is still waiting.