Why do DT saws have open totes and other backsaws do not?

[Tom Hendrickson]

I scored a post-1878 Richardson 12" backsaw while rust hunting this last weekend. Unfortunately the bottom fourth of the tote is broken off and missing. I found the saw in a dusty pile of panel saws and one 16" Atkins backsaw (which I also snagged). Since it was so much smaller than the other saws and missing the bottom of its tote, I originally thought it was a dovetail saw. Upon a more careful inspection it was clear the tote had at one time been fully closed, not open.

This got me wondering: why do dovetail saws have open totes and other backsaws don't? I'm guessing it's a weight and balance thing.

Also, I'm thinking of just replacing the tote. Or should I try to graft a new piece onto the old tote? If I replace the tote, how fussy should I be about making the new tote the same size and shape as the old tote? I use a template I made from a Disston Acme 120 to make totes for planes and pushsticks and anything else that needs a handle. This is a big tote for my big hand. To big for this small-ish saw?

All advice appreciated.

th

[Klaus Kretschmar]

IMHO it's less a weight balance thing, that dovetail saws usually have open handles but a question of visual balance. If you have a dovetail saw with a deep blade with more than 2" depth, there's nothing wrong if it has a closed handle. A shallow bladed saw with closed handle looks a little odd to my eyes. There are still makers producing deep dovetail saws with closed handles (e.g. Pax). Since a dovetail saw typically will be used to cut drawer and carcase joints with cut depths up to 1", there's no real need to make blades deeper than 2". Most makers go with more shallow blades and open handles.

On larger backsaws with deeper blades it is another story. They need to have closed handles to be stable enough.

Your saw seems to be a carcase saw since dovetail saws typically have the length from 8" to 10" while carcase saws are going from 10" to 12". Carcase saws are available with open handles as well as with closed ones. It depends on the blade depth. If the saw had originally a closed handle, it's a good idea not to change it unless the blade has not lost too much life because of many sharpenings. If the handle can be repaired, I'd try this at first. It's less work than to make a new handle and the saw will maintain it's vintage character. And: the basics of a good saw handle as there are a straight blade slot and a properly aligned spine mortise are already there, you haven't to struggle with them, what can be painful.

If you have to go with a replacement handle, I wouldn't take an Acme 120 handle as a pattern. It's designed for a handsaw, not for a back saw. There are remarkable differences in all senses. It might be a good idea to visit Ray Gardiners great site www.backsaw.net (http://www.backsaw.net) and to look for a matching handle pattern. He has lots of closed and open handle templates of vintage saws which can easily be printed out in the correct size since they are scaled. One thing you should pay attention is the hang angle of the original tote. I'd try to keep it as close as possible. The old tool makers knew what they did.

Klaus

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tom

I have always assumed that a closed handle was for extra strength. It would be required on larger back saws, suchas large tenon saws. And, therefore, open handles were found on smaller backsaws, such as dovetail saws and carcase saws.

My recent carcase saw was designed around a closed handle. It really did not need it as the plate depth is a little over 2", however I just fancied using this design. I already had a carcase saw from Eccentric Tools with an open handle. The two saws are identical in all respects except for the open/closed nature of the handles (11" long and 2 1/4" wide ) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Carcase%20Saw/7.jpg

More recently I built a joinery saw. This is quite small (9" long plate with 1 1/2" of cutting area). This has an open handle. Anything larger would not only have looked strange, but been too heavy and affected the balance.

Not anywhere near the class of Klaus', but for your amusement ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/2JoinerySaw.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/5JoinerySaw.jpg

Strength, balance, aesthetics ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Rogers]

All very attractive Derek. However what are you going to do with the gorgeous plank behind the saws in the first photo??
Joe

[Ray Gardiner]

Nice saws Derek, I'm sure I've said that before, but never hurts to say it again.


As a general rule the hang angle is a function of length (and depth) of the saw plate, (ok there are some other factors, but there is a general correlation that the longer the saw the more perpendicular the grip line).

Now, if you consider a short saw with a high hang angle, then the closed handle style doesn't make sense, I could draw a picture, but I think the concept is simple enough. There is a large area of overlap, where either style works, but at the extremes, on long-deep saws with low hang angles the closed handle dominates, and on short-shallow saws the open handle dominates.. If I was to pick a boundary, I'd say when the hang angle gets much above 40 degrees, then an open handle works better.

So, to summarize, I think the determining factor is the hang angle, which in turn is a function of the saw-plate length and depth. I used to think it was just length, but more and more I can see depth of plate can be an overriding factor, to illustrate what I mean, consider long shallow saws like pruning saws.. more often found with open handles than closed.

Interesting question, raises more questions than can be covered in a few words.

Regards
Ray

[Mike Siemsen]

I'm with Ray. It is the hang angle. A gents dovetail saw has a straight turned handle and is attached straight on to the back by a tang.
Mike

[Shlomo Hoffmann]

As a general rule the hang angle is a function of length (and depth) of the saw plate, (ok there are some other factors, but there is a general correlation that the longer the saw the more perpendicular the grip line).

Now, if you consider a short saw with a high hang angle, then the closed handle style doesn't make sense, I could draw a picture, but I think the concept is simple enough. There is a large area of overlap, where either style works, but at the extremes, on long-deep saws with low hang angles the closed handle dominates, and on short-shallow saws the open handle dominates.. If I was to pick a boundary, I'd say when the hang angle gets much above 40 degrees, then an open handle works better.

So, to summarize, I think the determining factor is the hang angle, which in turn is a function of the saw-plate length and depth. I used to think it was just length, but more and more I can see depth of plate can be an overriding factor, to illustrate what I mean, consider long shallow saws like pruning saws.. more often found with open handles than closed.

Interesting question, raises more questions than can be covered in a few words.

Regards
Ray

Ray, I think you have nailed it pretty much...

Let me just add that we can, kind of, "integrate" length and depth into the weight of the blade. The heavier it is, the lower the hang angle of the grip. I guess the concept is the "heavier" the saw, the less downward pressure is needed by the operator for proper cutting. With lower hang angle, more arm muscle power is directed for push and pull to overcome cutting resistance.

The inverse can be said for lighter saws, where the user needs to exert downward power to ensure proper cutting "grip" and less slippage. I guess the gent's dovetail saw is a good example, being the lightest of them all, with usually short and narrow blade and very small cutting teeth, hence the straight handle, or super-high-hang-angle, to enable a good down force...

Pruning saws typically very light and are usually used at odd angles, overhead and otherwise, where a heavy saw is none-beneficial and it is up to the user to exert the "downward" cutting force (I have quite an unpleasing experience about this with the very recent Nor'easter we had here)... this may explain the open handles for some of these as well...

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Tom


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Carcase Saw/7.jpg

More recently I built a joinery saw. This is quite small (9" long plate with 1 1/2" of cutting area). This has an open handle. Anything larger would not only have looked strange, but been too heavy and affected the balance.

Not anywhere near the class of Klaus', but for your amusement ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery Saw/2JoinerySaw.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery Saw/5JoinerySaw.jpg

Strength, balance, aesthetics ...

Regards from Perth

Derek




Derek, thanks for sharing pictures of your saws – as usual their beautiful! In the open handle joinery saw, does the upper us all bolt go through the brass back, as well as the plate?

In the thin plate joinery saws I've built I always seem to have problems with introducing "waves" in the plate when I punch holes for the small bolts in the plate and ultimately tighten them down. KLaus has mentioned this is likely due to misalignment of the saw back mortice and slot in the handle for the plate, which I recognize have to be perfectly straight.

I'm wondering if putting the upper saw bolt through both the brass back and the plate might reduce the risk of creating "waves" in the Saw plate?

Thanks, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

In the joinery saw the one bolt does indeed go through the brass back, but only because there was no room to avoid it. It does not affect the blade in any way. It is not the issue with your saw.

The reason for your wavy plate may be traced to, as Klaus mentioned, the slot. It mut be perfectly straight in all dimensions. The common fault is that the saw "cants" or curves as the slot is cut, and then the plate has to follow this line. The solution is to fill in the slot with veneer, and then re-saw it. Been there, done that :(

Regard from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My curiosity has me wondering if it might have anything to do with how items are held when they are being cut for dovetails.

With a shoulder vise, if a saw handle hangs below the tooth line, it could end up hitting parts of the vise if there is any upward angle on the say like there would be with half blind dove tails.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

Tom,

As promised, here is the pic of my Richardson backsaw. It's in pretty rough shape, but the handle is complete.

213673

Hope this helps!

Zach